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Anna_Scott
Guest
jinc1019,
As an Anglo Catholic in The Episcopal Church, I believe life occurs at conception and abortion is murder and therefore a sin. The Rector of our Parish would give the same answer.
Peace,
Anna
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As an Anglo Catholic in The Episcopal Church, I believe life occurs at conception and abortion is murder and therefore a sin. The Rector of our Parish would give the same answer.
Peace,
Anna
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
The Holy War 11,
Such a statement bears false witness against all orthodox Anglicans, including myself, who do believe in sin, who are not far left, who do not support same-sex unions/ordinations, who do believe adultery is a sin, who do not believe in abortion, and who do not believe in “do whatever you want.”
Peace,
Anna
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Anna_Scott
Guest
(name removed by moderator),
God bless you JC.
The sweeping statements about Anglicanism are, as I said before, bearing false witness against orthodox Anglicans.
Catholics know very well that the Anglican Communion is in crisis. So, as you voice your shock about our troubles, why not concentrate more on prayer than judgment?
Also, I would say clean up your own house before you throw stones at Anglicans.
Anna
God bless you JC.
The sweeping statements about Anglicanism are, as I said before, bearing false witness against orthodox Anglicans.
Catholics know very well that the Anglican Communion is in crisis. So, as you voice your shock about our troubles, why not concentrate more on prayer than judgment?
Also, I would say clean up your own house before you throw stones at Anglicans.
Anna
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Anna_Scott
Guest
(name removed by moderator),
You know, I’m usually pretty easy going, and I’m not the easiest person to offend. I suppose I’ve just seen one too many “bash Anglican” threads.
The Catholic Church is dealing with its own infiltration of liberal views, such as the crisis discussed on the thread entitled, “Vatican Names Archbishop Sartain To Lead Renewal Of LCWR.” The Catholic Church will do what it can to squelch this movement.
Most of the Catholics who post here are faithful to the Magisterium, and I respect their faithfulness. However, out in the world, there seems to be somewhat of a disconnect between what the Catholic Church teaches and what some Catholics are actually doing. It is as if I’m seeing two different Catholic religions: one beautifully expressed by CAF Catholics, and another out in the world.
The problem is, these issues of abortion and sexuality aren’t going away. Secularism is making inroads where ever it can. We all need to stand together in the preservation of the Gospel and the Commandments of Christ. However, it’s impossible to stand together when we are casting stones at one another.
Peace,
Anna
P.S. This was my post on thread: “Vatican Names Archbishop Sartain To Lead Renewal Of LCWR.” (Actually it was my first post as the OP and my thread was merged with this one).
You know, I’m usually pretty easy going, and I’m not the easiest person to offend. I suppose I’ve just seen one too many “bash Anglican” threads.
The Catholic Church is dealing with its own infiltration of liberal views, such as the crisis discussed on the thread entitled, “Vatican Names Archbishop Sartain To Lead Renewal Of LCWR.” The Catholic Church will do what it can to squelch this movement.
Most of the Catholics who post here are faithful to the Magisterium, and I respect their faithfulness. However, out in the world, there seems to be somewhat of a disconnect between what the Catholic Church teaches and what some Catholics are actually doing. It is as if I’m seeing two different Catholic religions: one beautifully expressed by CAF Catholics, and another out in the world.
The problem is, these issues of abortion and sexuality aren’t going away. Secularism is making inroads where ever it can. We all need to stand together in the preservation of the Gospel and the Commandments of Christ. However, it’s impossible to stand together when we are casting stones at one another.
Peace,
Anna
P.S. This was my post on thread: “Vatican Names Archbishop Sartain To Lead Renewal Of LCWR.” (Actually it was my first post as the OP and my thread was merged with this one).
Anna,
You are to be commended for voicing your defense of conservative Anglicans with strength and charity.
Not long ago I had a long chat with an Anglican priest (ACA/TAC) and he almost, amost convinced me. I was truly impressed.Jon
G
GKC
Guest
There are faithful, orthodox Anglicans. Here and there.Anna,
You are to be commended for voicing your defense of conservative Anglicans with strength and charity.
Jon
GKC
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PumpkinSeed
Guest
I think most people who are anti-abortion are religious folks who believe that the fetus has a soul. The bible says that God knows you while in the womb, so that would suggest we have a soul while being a fetus. However if you don’t believe that, then other than the gross and gruesome factor, I can’t see another reason to be against abortion.
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Anna_Scott
Guest
Jon,Anna,
You are to be commended for voicing your defense of conservative Anglicans with strength and charity.
Jon
I appreciate your kind words.
So, you were almost convinced?
One of my best friends, came from a Lutheran Church to our Episcopal Parish.As I’m sure you know, conservative/orthodox Anglicans have a lot in common with Lutherans; and Lutherans are Received rather than Confirmed when entering TEC.
Always good to find your posts, Jon. I’m definitely a fan. :clapping:
Peace,
Anna
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jinc1019
Guest
Interesting insight Jon, thanks for sharing that…I think a big disconnect between Catholics and members of these other churches is that for Catholics, everything exists in a top-down approach where authority is central to every belief. In these other churches, authority exists but not in the same way it does in Catholic Church. As a result, I think when some Catholics read a bishop in the Anglican, Episcopal, or Luthern Church say something that is clearly un-orthodox, that belief gets applied to the laity as well, even though these other churches don’t appear to operate that way from what I have recently learned on this forum.
J
jinc1019
Guest
Anna, I really appreciate your comments and hearing from a conservative Anglican…But I am curious, if you disagree with so much of what your leadership believes, why do you stay in your church? Why not leave to an organization that has beliefs closer to your own?
J
jinc1019
Guest
I also agree with your statement here, by the way…We shouldn’t judge all members of any church to be any one particular way. Not all Catholics are the same!
J
jinc1019
Guest
Again, I agree that the comment was unfair and shouldn’t be supported.
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Anna_Scott
Guest
jinc1019,
You are right. The idea of submission to authority is different. Catholics must submit religious mind and will to the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking Ex Cathedra—and even if you think he is wrong. You still must accept all the teachings of the Catholic Church, even though some non-infallible teachings may change at some point in the future.
When an Episcopal Bishop voices a view that is clearly against orthodox Christianity, I am not required to submit.
Peace,
Anna
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jinc1019
Guest
Under that same logic, a person who doesn’t believe anyone has a sould should support murder in all situations. I am NOT saying people who oppose the concept of a soul actually believe that, only that your logic is extremely faulty.
Further, I think it’s pretty clear that abortion is having a NEGATIVE effect on our society. For one thing, Western Civilization is disappearing because we have effectively stopped having children at a rate than increases the population while other cultures are producing far more children. Additionally, more people in America means higher economic productivity, which in turn creates prosperity for all.
Additionally, of all the people who have been aborted, how many potential Martin Luther King Jr.'s were in that group? How about Mother Theresa’s or Henry Ford’s or George Washington’s? The loss of human life is ALWAYS a loss. Where the world be without Albert Einstein? And that is just one person. Each person has a unique set of skills and capabilities, and the loss of any one person means a greater loss for society as a whole. While certainly you can argue some of those aborted would have grown up to be criminals (and even many criminals at some point help society in some very meaningful way), the vast majority would be productive members of society and a certain percentage would have had special gifts that may not EVER be replicated. To say there is a utilitarian justification for murder is inherently dangerous and is precisely the same kind of logic that led to the Holocaust.
J
jinc1019
Guest
Also Anna, are you in the Episcopal Church or one of the other Anglican churches in America?Jon,
I appreciate your kind words.
So, you were almost convinced?
As I’m sure you know, conservative/orthodox Anglicans have a lot in common with Lutherans; and Lutherans are Received rather than Confirmed when entering TEC.
Always good to find your posts, Jon. I’m definitely a fan. :clapping:
Peace,
Anna
I have in the past mused with our friend GKC, wondering why it is that “liberal” Lutherans and Anglicans seem to be drawn together, but “conservative” (say orthodox) Lutherans and Anglicans seem to have a more difficult time of it.Jon,
I appreciate your kind words.
So, you were almost convinced?
As I’m sure you know, conservative/orthodox Anglicans have a lot in common with Lutherans; and Lutherans are Received rather than Confirmed when entering TEC.
Always good to find your posts, Jon. I’m definitely a fan. :clapping:
Peace,
Anna
Jon
G
GKC
Guest
IMO, conservatives are convinced that each, in their own way, are right.I have in the past mused with our friend GKC, wondering why it is that “liberal” Lutherans and Anglicans seem to be drawn together, but “conservative” (say orthodox) Lutherans and Anglicans seem to have a more difficult time of it.
Jon
GKC
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PumpkinSeed
Guest
Terminating a pregnancy is different than murdering a live person, according to the pro-choicers, so no, it doesn’t make it illogical.
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Contarini
Guest
That doesn’t make any sense, because the Bible also says that God knew us before we were in the womb. If anything, since the point is clearly that God knows us before we exist, the passage you have in mind could be used to argue that a fetus is not yet a “real person.”
The prolife argument has no clear support from Scripture that I can see, but plenty from tradition and reason. (At least, if we take the case to be whether the fetus is a human being or not. Alas, there are many “pro-choice” folks who just don’t seem to care about that question, or even admit that abortion does take a human life and still defend it–obviously that kind of consequentialist abomination is contrary to Scripture, as well as to every decent impulse in humanity.)
You’re right that most (not all) prolife folks are religious, but the reason is not any particular Scriptural passage so much as the general understanding of the human person.
If you understand human personhood functionally, then you can make a case that the fetus isn’t a person, although there is no coherent case I’ve seen for personhood beginning at birth–there’s a coherent case for it beginning sometime between conception and birth, or sometime after birth.
But if you believe in intrinsic, ontological human dignity, then you’re relatively much more likely to see human personhood beginning as soon as there is an identifiable, biologically human organism.
Edwin
C
Contarini
Guest
As I said, it depends on how we define orthodoxy.
The Episcopal Church professes the faith once delivered to the saints, as expressed in the Apostles’ and Nicene Creeds, and it professes that Scripture is divinely inspired and contains all things necessary to salvation (which you could argue is insufficiently orthodox from a Catholic perspective, but that’s dubious–many Catholics uphold material sufficiency).
One would think, from the typical posts about the Episcopal Church on this forum, that these central truths of the Faith are pretty much irrelevant compared to the difficult issues surrounding how to apply Christian sexual teaching to contemporary culture. I disagree with the leadership of my denomination on a number of points with regard to these issues. But the rhetoric thrown around on this forum obscures the truth. It’s indefensible. You aren’t telling harsh truths–you’re totally distorting the situation by picking on one set of difficult social/moral issues and ignoring the most basic beliefs of the Episcopal Church, which are those of historic, orthodox Christianity as expressed in the Creeds.
Which bishops? I am aware of one priest who made this statement, just before becoming dean of an Episcopal seminary. That’s bad enough. But she isn’t a bishop. Perhaps you have some other bishop in mind?
A retired bishop, who does more than question. Spong is obviously heretical–in fact, he glories in the fact and trades on it. No one I’m aware of in the Episcopal Church, including Spong himself, thinks that his views represent the teaching of the Episcopal Church.
To find out what we believe, all you have to do is open a copy of the 1979 Book of Common Prayer. It’s not copyright and is easily available online. Yet Catholics on this forum neglect this obvious way of finding out what we believe.
Similarly, a person who characterized Catholicism based on isolated statements by individual priests or bishops would rightly be rebuked and would be sent to the Catechism as the place to find out what you really believe.
Stricter in enforcing orthodoxy (to the point of enforcing many things that appear to use to be mere theological opinions).
What heresy do you find in the 1979 BCP?
That’s what you need to be basing your critique on.
Edwin
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