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jinc1019
Guest
That wasn’t the point I was making.
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jinc1019
Guest
I agree with the idea that religious people are not pro-life because they see a passage in the Bible that says they should be. As you pointed out, there is a lot more to it than that.
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jinc1019
Guest
I don’t see any heresy in the 1979 BCP (there be some in there, but I am not aware of it), actually, I like the Book of Common Prayer very much. I may be wrong about the abortion comment, I was always told it was a bishop BUT it could very well be precisely the same person you are talking about. I apologize for making the comment if I was correct, I should have verified it before saying it!
Either way, the EC endorsed abortion legislation numerous times and its official position is to oppose efforts that restrict abortion. And that is verified.
Further, you are right that there are Catholics who go off the deep end in terms of orthodoxy, but the Church ALWAYS makes it clear those people do not speak for their Church. The Episcopal Church does not do this and it’s why so many are leaving it.
J
jinc1019
Guest
Also, you may be right about Spong in a lot of ways…But he has become a poster-child for liberal Anglican theology in America, and while you are right he is retired, he has held these positions for a long time and served as a very liberal bishop. To the rest of the world, they look at Spong and think there are more like him in the Episcopal Church, and honestly, you cannot tell me that you believe that there isn’t a radical liberal wing to the Episcopal Church; I am not saying everyone is liberal, but many are very, very liberal. If I am so wrong about this, why are so many abandoning it?
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GKC
Guest
As far as I know, the abortion statement, in that form, derives directly and solely from Katherine Hancock Ragsdale, now president and dean of the Episcopal Divinity School, who the Episcopal Church accounts a priest, but not a bishop.
GKC
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jinc1019
Guest
You may be right about the actual abortion statement, but the POSITION of the Episcopal Church in lobbying for legislation in Washington on abortion is clearly pro-abortion.
Read the wikipedia section on the Episcopal Church and then click on the link to the sources they cite at the bottom: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_abortion#The_Episcopal_Church
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jinc1019
Guest
They also oppose any legislation that limits abortion rights…that is pro-abortion. Theologically, they may not officially support it, but their actions say otherwise.
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GKC
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GKC
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martininthefiel
Guest
It is past 3 am, thus this is slightly disjointed:
The problem is that the current leadership of TEC is moving to marginalize the traditionalist. I know many in TEC, both laypeople and clergy, who are quite orthodox in their views, but, increasingly, they are shouted-down by those with much more ‘modern’ agenda. When I became an Episcopalian (long time ago–I grew-up a Reform Jew, and converted in college) it was essentially a slightly more liberal version of the Catholic Church. In the past 25 years or so it has moved steadily leftward, adopting positions that are wholly objectionable to orthodox Christians. The focus seems to be entirely on tolerating everything–never wanting to make anybody ‘feel bad’.
The impulse to toleration is a good one. Christians should not condemn. We should always pray for sinners. We should always pray for our enemies. We should not point-out the speck in other’s eyes, whilst ignoring the log in our own. But it is also our commission to teach–to instruct the world. Sin is sin. It is one thing to say God forgives the penitent; it is quite another to say that nothing is a sin, all is acceptable.
The priest who made the statement about abortion being a blessing is the head of one of the major TEC seminaries. She was not speaking for the entire church, but she certainly should have been sanctioned for such an outrageous statement. Yet both the Presiding Bishop, and the diocesan bishop in which the seminary is situated, to my knowledge, did nothing. So the impression left is that abortion is always, in every circumstance, acceptable. Of course, this is not, and never has been TEC’s position.
The problem is that the current leadership of TEC is moving to marginalize the traditionalist. I know many in TEC, both laypeople and clergy, who are quite orthodox in their views, but, increasingly, they are shouted-down by those with much more ‘modern’ agenda. When I became an Episcopalian (long time ago–I grew-up a Reform Jew, and converted in college) it was essentially a slightly more liberal version of the Catholic Church. In the past 25 years or so it has moved steadily leftward, adopting positions that are wholly objectionable to orthodox Christians. The focus seems to be entirely on tolerating everything–never wanting to make anybody ‘feel bad’.
The impulse to toleration is a good one. Christians should not condemn. We should always pray for sinners. We should always pray for our enemies. We should not point-out the speck in other’s eyes, whilst ignoring the log in our own. But it is also our commission to teach–to instruct the world. Sin is sin. It is one thing to say God forgives the penitent; it is quite another to say that nothing is a sin, all is acceptable.
The priest who made the statement about abortion being a blessing is the head of one of the major TEC seminaries. She was not speaking for the entire church, but she certainly should have been sanctioned for such an outrageous statement. Yet both the Presiding Bishop, and the diocesan bishop in which the seminary is situated, to my knowledge, did nothing. So the impression left is that abortion is always, in every circumstance, acceptable. Of course, this is not, and never has been TEC’s position.
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martininthefiel
Guest
It is not my intent to bash TEC. I learned a lot about Christian orthodoxy as an Episcopalian. I don’t think I would have ever have become a Catholic, without first being an Anglican, and I still have the utmost love and respect for people I met along the way. The deterioration of TEC greatly saddens me.
It is not, in my mind, either gay bishops, or women priests who are the problem, per se. A woman, lesbian or straight; a gay man; can be just as orthodox as a straight male priest or bishop–some are. The problem is that the radicals have taken over. The departure of the traditionalists, and reticence of the moderates has accelerated the trend.
I was on the lay committee of a woman, who was a candidate for seminary in my diocese. She was conservative theologically, and was rejected by the bishop for just that reason.
It is not, in my mind, either gay bishops, or women priests who are the problem, per se. A woman, lesbian or straight; a gay man; can be just as orthodox as a straight male priest or bishop–some are. The problem is that the radicals have taken over. The departure of the traditionalists, and reticence of the moderates has accelerated the trend.
I was on the lay committee of a woman, who was a candidate for seminary in my diocese. She was conservative theologically, and was rejected by the bishop for just that reason.
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martininthefiel
Guest
One more thing:
I was married to a woman who had an affair with an old flame, and decided to move-in with him, while we were still married, leaving me with four-year-old daughter, who had been adopted from China. We were away on vacation when I discovered what was going-on, and our rector back home sent us to a marriage counselor near where we were vacationing.
Not once in the entire conversation with the counselor, who was an Episcopal priest, did the subject of the sanctity of marriage even come-up. His basic attitude was one of, ‘you go girl’ throughout our entire conversation. Her personal happiness–not our marriage, or our daughter’s well-being–was the only consideration. He acted as a secular counselor would have. And the assumption, because I am a man, was that whatever had happened must have been my fault. This was not an abusive relationship.
(BTW, her boyfriend’s Lutheran (ELCA) pastor was downright complicit in their affair. But that is, as they say, another story.)
I don’t believe the marriage was salvageable–that’s not the point–but it was the reluctance of the priest involved, to make any attempt to defend marriage that truly shocked me.
Once back home, I did finally hear the word ‘sin’ uttered in connection with this incident. It came from the mouth of a relatively conservative female priest.
These are just individuals, not the Church, acting; but it is symptomatic of where TEC has let itself go.
I was married to a woman who had an affair with an old flame, and decided to move-in with him, while we were still married, leaving me with four-year-old daughter, who had been adopted from China. We were away on vacation when I discovered what was going-on, and our rector back home sent us to a marriage counselor near where we were vacationing.
Not once in the entire conversation with the counselor, who was an Episcopal priest, did the subject of the sanctity of marriage even come-up. His basic attitude was one of, ‘you go girl’ throughout our entire conversation. Her personal happiness–not our marriage, or our daughter’s well-being–was the only consideration. He acted as a secular counselor would have. And the assumption, because I am a man, was that whatever had happened must have been my fault. This was not an abusive relationship.
(BTW, her boyfriend’s Lutheran (ELCA) pastor was downright complicit in their affair. But that is, as they say, another story.)
I don’t believe the marriage was salvageable–that’s not the point–but it was the reluctance of the priest involved, to make any attempt to defend marriage that truly shocked me.
Once back home, I did finally hear the word ‘sin’ uttered in connection with this incident. It came from the mouth of a relatively conservative female priest.
These are just individuals, not the Church, acting; but it is symptomatic of where TEC has let itself go.
C
CMatt25
Guest
Many people of faith, including many of Christian faith, not limited to Episcopalians, while affirming the sacredness of life, support the principles of a woman’s right to reproductive freedom, support the freedom of individual conscience, respect the differences of religious beliefs that people have concerning abortion, and oppose attempts to legislate a specific religious opinion regarding abortion for all Americans.
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Anna_Scott
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Anna_Scott
Guest
Jon,I have in the past mused with our friend GKC, wondering why it is that “liberal” Lutherans and Anglicans seem to be drawn together, but “conservative” (say orthodox) Lutherans and Anglicans seem to have a more difficult time of it.
Jon
Perhaps, because many liberals are busy pushing an agenda and gaining attention from the Press whenever possible.
Conservatives leaders are working for orthodoxy, but that’s really not news worthy is it? When was the last time you read an article about orthodox Anglicans?
In my Parish, Episcopalians are busy living out the Christian faith in community and beyond. In addition to serving one another within the Parish, Episcopalians are busy with food drives, blood drives, preparing and serving meals for the homeless, Christian Giving Projects, Bears for Constables, Operation Military Embrace, United Thank Offering, Global Mission Trips, Houston Ground Angels & Pilots, Interfaith Hospitality Network, Children’s Medical Center, Seafarer’s Mission, Youth Mission Trips, Back to School Supplies for Children–and that’s not an all inclusive list. Keep in mind we average only about 400 in attendance each Sunday.
I don’t mean to imply that I am doing all these things. I’m disabled and I do whatever I am physically able to do. Also, I don’t mean to imply that liberal Episcopalians are not serving their communities.
What I am trying to say is that if I never listened to the news or logged on to CAF, I wouldn’t believe what is happening in liberal factions of TEC—because I have no experience of these liberal agendas or beliefs in my Parish. Our Rector is unwavering in his commitment to the teachings of orthodox Christianity–and swings heavily towards Catholicism with some elements of Eastern Orthodoxy.
I do try to let my conservative voice be heard—in a number of ways, including posting on CAF. If conservatives do not speak up, sweeping statements about Anglicanism would stand without correction.
As for conservatives being drawn together; I recently joined an all Anglican forum. The aim of the forum is to “bring orthodox Anglicans together into a place where they can have common conversation and discussion.” The forum is in its beginning stages, but is proving to be a blessing in so many ways.
Peace and blessings to you Jon,
Anna
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jinc1019
Guest
Thanks for sharing this very insightful story; it really did add a lot. I absolutely see your point and am not too surprised. There seems to be a complete collapse of morality amongst those who identify themselves as “left” in this country, as if morality shouldn’t matter at all anymore or exists only as a subjective personal view rather than an objective statement of fact. I too am saddened by the fall of the Episcopal Church. Thanks again for sharing.
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jinc1019
Guest
I think you are missing the point. It isn’t a “religious” opinion. It is either TRUTH that an unborn child is a human or isn’t. It’s not opinion…we are either right or wrong. We may not be able to determine precisely when a human is scientifically a “human” and not just cells, but why should we even entertain the possibility of permitting death to a human life? If we are truly unsure of when human life begins, why not just err on the side of NOT taking the life of an innocent unborn human rather than risk committing a terrible and immoral act? It is completely illogical. And while Christianity may very well be the foundation of Western Civilization and its values, abortion is no more about religion than the taking of a man or woman who is 40 years old is about religion.
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jinc1019
Guest
Thanks again for sharing Anna…I think you have added a lot to this conversation and I greatly respect you and your prarish’s efforts.Jon,
Perhaps, because many liberals are busy pushing an agenda and gaining attention from the Press whenever possible.
Conservatives leaders are working for orthodoxy, but that’s really not news worthy is it? When was the last time you read an article about orthodox Anglicans?
In my Parish, Episcopalians are busy living out the Christian faith in community and beyond. In addition to serving one another within the Parish, Episcopalians are busy with food drives, blood drives, preparing and serving meals for the homeless, Christian Giving Projects, Bears for Constables, Operation Military Embrace, United Thank Offering, Global Mission Trips, Houston Ground Angels & Pilots, Interfaith Hospitality Network, Children’s Medical Center, Seafarer’s Mission, Youth Mission Trips, Back to School Supplies for Children–and that’s not an all inclusive list. Keep in mind we average only about 400 in attendance each Sunday.
I don’t mean to imply that I am doing all these things. I’m disabled and I do whatever I am physically able to do. Also, I don’t mean to imply that liberal Episcopalians are not serving their communities.
What I am trying to say is that if I never listened to the news or logged on to CAF, I wouldn’t believe what is happening in liberal factions of TEC—because I have no experience of these liberal agendas or beliefs in my Parish. Our Rector is unwavering in his commitment to the teachings of orthodox Christianity–and swings heavily towards Catholicism with some elements of Eastern Orthodoxy.
I do try to let my conservative voice be heard—in a number of ways, including posting on CAF. If conservatives do not speak up, sweeping statements about Anglicanism would stand without correction.
As for conservatives being drawn together; I recently joined an all Anglican forum. The aim of the forum is to “bring orthodox Anglicans together into a place where they can have common conversation and discussion.” The forum is in its beginning stages, but is proving to be a blessing in so many ways.
Peace and blessings to you Jon,
Anna
I am still curious, however, about why you choose to stay in the Episcopal Church at all, even in an Anglo-Catholic parish, when you could just join a Catholic parish that seems to, from a leadership standpoint, support your views more closely. I know your parish is very conservative, but the leadership of your national church is not, so why stay? I am really just curious and really do respect the efforts made by Anglo-Catholics in the Episcopal Church (I don’t agree with Anglo-Catholics on everything but I do on many).
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martininthefiel
Guest
Please do speak-up. I was in a diocese where the conservative Anglicans simply let themselves get bullied, and where successive bishops made it increasingly uncomfortable for dissenters to speak-up.Jon,
Perhaps, because many liberals are busy pushing an agenda and gaining attention from the Press whenever possible.
Conservatives leaders are working for orthodoxy, but that’s really not news worthy is it? When was the last time you read an article about orthodox Anglicans?
In my Parish, Episcopalians are busy living out the Christian faith in community and beyond. In addition to serving one another within the Parish, Episcopalians are busy with food drives, blood drives, preparing and serving meals for the homeless, Christian Giving Projects, Bears for Constables, Operation Military Embrace, United Thank Offering, Global Mission Trips, Houston Ground Angels & Pilots, Interfaith Hospitality Network, Children’s Medical Center, Seafarer’s Mission, Youth Mission Trips, Back to School Supplies for Children–and that’s not an all inclusive list. Keep in mind we average only about 400 in attendance each Sunday.
I don’t mean to imply that I am doing all these things. I’m disabled and I do whatever I am physically able to do. Also, I don’t mean to imply that liberal Episcopalians are not serving their communities.
What I am trying to say is that if I never listened to the news or logged on to CAF, I wouldn’t believe what is happening in liberal factions of TEC—because I have no experience of these liberal agendas or beliefs in my Parish. Our Rector is unwavering in his commitment to the teachings of orthodox Christianity–and swings heavily towards Catholicism with some elements of Eastern Orthodoxy.
I do try to let my conservative voice be heard—in a number of ways, including posting on CAF. If conservatives do not speak up, sweeping statements about Anglicanism would stand without correction.
As for conservatives being drawn together; I recently joined an all Anglican forum. The aim of the forum is to “bring orthodox Anglicans together into a place where they can have common conversation and discussion.” The forum is in its beginning stages, but is proving to be a blessing in so many ways.
Peace and blessings to you Jon,
Anna
Ironically, the Anglo-Catholics were much more passive than the Evangelical wing, in part because the latter had, and have, more places to go, namely more conservative Protestant denominations. The Anglo-Catholics were still permitted to have their liturgical sandboxes, and, often the more radical elements, especially those with sexuality agenda, liked the ritual, and co-opted it for their own purposes. What resulted was caricature–catholic ritual, but with no connection the Christian orthodoxy. I remember one Sunday in Boston, at a parish with a long Anglo-Catholic tradition, where the Nicene Creed was chanted with approximately half the congregation referring to the Holy Spirit as, “she”. Other than that, the were lots of incense, bells, and lace-trimmed vestments, as well as a sung Eucharist.
J
jinc1019
Guest
Wow…just incredible. I wonder why so many hard leftists moved into the Anglican Church?
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