Can Anyone Explain the Episcopal View on Abortion?

  • Thread starter Thread starter jinc1019
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Anna_Scott said:
Jon,
Perhaps, because many liberals are busy pushing an agenda and gaining attention from the Press whenever possible.

Conservatives leaders are working for orthodoxy, but that’s really not news worthy is it? When was the last time you read an article about orthodox Anglicans?

In my Parish, Episcopalians are busy living out the Christian faith in community and beyond. In addition to serving one another within the Parish, Episcopalians are busy with food drives, blood drives, preparing and serving meals for the homeless, Christian Giving Projects, Bears for Constables, Operation Military Embrace, United Thank Offering, Global Mission Trips, Houston Ground Angels & Pilots, Interfaith Hospitality Network, Children’s Medical Center, Seafarer’s Mission, Youth Mission Trips, Back to School Supplies for Children–and that’s not an all inclusive list. Keep in mind we average only about 400 in attendance each Sunday.

I don’t mean to imply that I am doing all these things. I’m disabled and I do whatever I am physically able to do. Also, I don’t mean to imply that liberal Episcopalians are not serving their communities.

What I am trying to say is that if I never listened to the news or logged on to CAF, I wouldn’t believe what is happening in liberal factions of TEC—because I have no experience of these liberal agendas or beliefs in my Parish. Our Rector is unwavering in his commitment to the teachings of orthodox Christianity–and swings heavily towards Catholicism with some elements of Eastern Orthodoxy.

I do try to let my conservative voice be heard—in a number of ways, including posting on CAF. If conservatives do not speak up, sweeping statements about Anglicanism would stand without correction.

As for conservatives being drawn together; I recently joined an all Anglican forum. The aim of the forum is to “bring orthodox Anglicans together into a place where they can have common conversation and discussion.” The forum is in its beginning stages, but is proving to be a blessing in so many ways.

Peace and blessings to you Jon, 🙂
Anna
Click to expand...
Anna, can you give the address of the Anglican online forum you are referring to in this post?
 
martininthefiel said:
Please do speak-up. I was in a diocese where the conservative Anglicans simply let themselves get bullied, and where successive bishops made it increasingly uncomfortable for dissenters to speak-up.

Ironically, the Anglo-Catholics were much more passive than the Evangelical wing, in part because the latter had, and have, more places to go, namely more conservative Protestant denominations. The Anglo-Catholics were still permitted to have their liturgical sandboxes, and, often the more radical elements, especially those with sexuality agenda, liked the ritual, and co-opted it for their own purposes. What resulted was caricature–catholic ritual, but with no connection the Christian orthodoxy. I remember one Sunday in Boston, at a parish with a long Anglo-Catholic tradition, where the Nicene Creed was chanted with approximately half the congregation referring to the Holy Spirit as, “she”. Other than that, the were lots of incense, bells, and lace-trimmed vestments, as well as a sung Eucharist.
Click to expand...
It was primarily Anglo-Catholics who led the exodus (such as it was) in the period after the St. Louis meeting/affirmation, in 1977, which established the ever-fracturing Anglican Continuum (the Continuing Anglican Churches). That is, many of the most aggressive and Principled Anglo-Catholics were departing TEC 30+ years ago.

GKC

*poserus traditus Anglicanus.
 
GKC said:
It was primarily Anglo-Catholics who led the exodus (such as it was) in the period after the St. Louis meeting/affirmation, in 1977, which established the ever-fracturing Anglican Continuum (the Continuing Anglican Churches). That is, many of the most aggressive and Principled Anglo-Catholics were departing TEC 30+ years ago.

GKC

*poserus traditus Anglicanus.
Click to expand...
GKC, what caused the Anglo-Catholics to leave at that time? Why did they already feel like they needed to change churches?
 
jinc1019 said:
GKC, what caused the Anglo-Catholics to leave at that time? Why did they already feel like they needed to change churches?
Click to expand...
It was primarily reaction to the process by which the 1979 book was put together, as well as a judgment on what the result implied, for orthodox Anglicanism. And it was a prescient conclusion as to where the TEC was likely heading. On the latter, they were correct.

There is a book on the subject, DIVIDED WE STAND/Bess, which covers the history well.

GKC
 
GKC said:
It was primarily reaction to the process by which the 1979 book was put together, as well as a judgment on what the result implied, for orthodox Anglicanism. And it was a prescient conclusion as to where the TEC was likely heading. On the latter, they were correct.

There is a book on the subject, DIVIDED WE STAND/Bess, which covers the history well.

GKC
Click to expand...
Thanks for the book suggestion and the information GKC, greatly appreciate it as always!
 
GKC said:
You are very welcome.

Hughes wrote another book I frequently mention, STEWARDS OF THE LORD, a companion to ABSOLUTELY NULL, in which he gives the best wrestling exhibition I know of against Clark’s ANGLICAN ORDERS AND DEFECT OF INTENTION, the latter the best RC theological discussion of what Apostolicae Curae is all about that I (again) know of. I type those book titles a lot, in venues like this, on this subject.

Hughes is an interesting individual. Originally an Anglican priest, he converted, and was the first known such to be ordained sub conditione, post Apostolicae Curae. His two books here listed were written as a RC priest.

GKC
Click to expand...
Very interesting, I will check those out. I am very interested in the validity of Anglican orders.
 
jinc1019 said:
Very interesting, I will check those out. I am very interested in the validity of Anglican orders.
Click to expand...
Ah, well. You read faster than I could type. And I had some internet connection issues, at precisely that moment.

The para is valid, it just wasn’t what I thought I was posting.

But sure, both of Hughes’ books and Clark’s book are highly recommended. Hughes especially: ABSOLUTELY NULL AND UTTERLY VOID and STEWARDS OF THE LORD, Clark ANGLICAN ORDERS AND DEFECT OF INTENTION.

As I said, a sort of hobby of mine.

GKC
 
jinc1019 said:
Thanks again for sharing Anna…I think you have added a lot to this conversation and I greatly respect you and your prarish’s efforts.

I am still curious, however, about why you choose to stay in the Episcopal Church at all, even in an Anglo-Catholic parish, when you could just join a Catholic parish that seems to, from a leadership standpoint, support your views more closely. I know your parish is very conservative, but the leadership of your national church is not, so why stay? I am really just curious and really do respect the efforts made by Anglo-Catholics in the Episcopal Church (I don’t agree with Anglo-Catholics on everything but I do on many).
Click to expand...
jinc1019,
I think if all orthodox Anglicans had remained in the Anglican Communion; the Episcopal Church might look differently than it does now. When orthodox Episcopalians leave, it opens the door for even more radical liberals to enter and gain ground. All the media attention about same-sex unions and ordinations of those in same-sex relationships is a huge advertisement for liberals, both churched and unchurched, who then flock to The Episcopal Church. This is how a Church is hijacked.

I will remain in TEC as long as I possibly can–as long as my Parish remains orthodox. At this point, the orthodox Anglicans, including Priests and Bishops, are not required to submit to or agree with the liberal actions/teachings of TEC leadership. We are not required to submit religious mind and will to our leadership as Catholics must submit to the Roman Pontiff.

Ironically, Catholics are very critical of the number of “denominations” and how non-Catholics church-hop to find what suits them. But–when we are hesitant to further fracture the Body of Christ, we are criticized for that too.

It is easy to forget that we are all part of the Mystical Body of Christ (even the CCC acknowledges this); and what happens in one part of the Body affects all the rest of us. So, this liberal swing is not just an Anglican problem, it is a problem for all of Christendom.

These liberal ideas are even infiltrating the Catholic Church, despite the Pope/Magisterium, as evident by the current crisis with The Leadership Conference of Women Religious.

According to the Doctrinal Assessment of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, these are some of the findings:

*Serious theological and doctrinal errors in presentations at the conference’s annual assemblies.

*Attempts to justify dissent from Church doctrine.

*“Scant regard for the role of the Magisterium.”

*“Moving beyond the Church” and even beyond Jesus.

*“Certain radical feminist themes incompatible with the Catholic fait.”

*Risk of distorting Church teaching on the divinity of Christ, the Holy Trinity, the Eucharist and the inspiration of Sacred Scripture.

*Suggested dissent from Church teaching on human sexuality.

*Protested the Holy See’s actions on women’s ordination and ministry to homosexual persons.

*Remaining silent on the right to life from conception to natural death (abortion & euthanasia.)

This is the official document and link:
Congregatio Pro Doctrina Fidei
Doctrinal Assessment of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious
Link: usccb.org/loader.cfm?csModule=security/getfile&pageid=55544

I started a thread about the above issue with Catholic Women Religious entitled,
Vatican nun crackdown hits US group for ‘radical feminist’ ideas.

Someone merged my thread with another thread and the title was changed to
Vatican demands reform of American nuns’ leadership group [CWN]

The thread title has changed yet again and is now entitled,
NY Times writer misinforms re: LCWR issue.’

I would say CAF has some good people working in the PR Dept. 😉

I think the Pope will have his hands full in the years to come, because these issues aren’t going away.

I pray that God will grant us all the strength to fight the good fight. Let us pray for one another.

Peace and blessings to all,
Anna
 
Anna_Scott said:
jinc1019,
I think if all orthodox Anglicans had remained in the Anglican Communion; the Episcopal Church might look differently than it does now. When orthodox Episcopalians leave, it opens the door for even more radical liberals to enter and gain ground. All the media attention about same-sex unions and ordinations of those in same-sex relationships is a huge advertisement for liberals, both churched and unchurched, who then flock to The Episcopal Church. This is how a Church is hijacked.

I will remain in TEC as long as I possibly can–as long as my Parish remains orthodox. At this point, the orthodox Anglicans, including Priests and Bishops, are not required to submit to or agree with the liberal actions/teachings of TEC leadership. We are not required to submit religious mind and will to our leadership as Catholics must submit to the Roman Pontiff.

Ironically, Catholics are very critical of the number of “denominations” and how non-Catholics church-hop to find what suits them. But–when we are hesitant to further fracture the Body of Christ, we are criticized for that too.

It is easy to forget that we are all part of the Mystical Body of Christ (even the CCC acknowledges this); and what happens in one part of the Body affects all the rest of us. So, this liberal swing is not just an Anglican problem, it is a problem for all of Christendom.

These liberal ideas are even infiltrating the Catholic Church, despite the Pope/Magisterium, as evident by the current crisis with The Leadership Conference of Women Religious.

According to the Doctrinal Assessment of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, these are some of the findings:

*Serious theological and doctrinal errors in presentations at the conference’s annual assemblies.

*Attempts to justify dissent from Church doctrine.

*“Scant regard for the role of the Magisterium.”

*“Moving beyond the Church” and even beyond Jesus.

*“Certain radical feminist themes incompatible with the Catholic fait.”

*Risk of distorting Church teaching on the divinity of Christ, the Holy Trinity, the Eucharist and the inspiration of Sacred Scripture.

*Suggested dissent from Church teaching on human sexuality.

*Protested the Holy See’s actions on women’s ordination and ministry to homosexual persons.

*Remaining silent on the right to life from conception to natural death (abortion & euthanasia.)

This is the official document and link:
Congregatio Pro Doctrina Fidei
Doctrinal Assessment of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious
Link: usccb.org/loader.cfm?csModule=security/getfile&pageid=55544

I started a thread about the above issue with Catholic Women Religious entitled,
Vatican nun crackdown hits US group for ‘radical feminist’ ideas.

Someone merged my thread with another thread and the title was changed to
Vatican demands reform of American nuns’ leadership group [CWN]

The thread title has changed yet again and is now entitled,
NY Times writer misinforms re: LCWR issue.’

I would say CAF has some good people working in the PR Dept. 😉

I think the Pope will have his hands full in the years to come, because these issues aren’t going away.

I pray that God will grant us all the strength to fight the good fight. Let us pray for one another.

Peace and blessings to all,
Anna
Click to expand...
Dear Anna, I will absolutely pray for your parish and for Christianity as a whole. I agree that left-wing ideology is infiltrating the Christian faith in a way that is damaging the ancient tradition that has passed from generation to generation for 2,000 years. I will also say that while I don’t agree with all of your positions, even on some social issues I imagine, there is no doubt that Christianity is under attack in America and around the world.
 
jinc1019 said:
Dear Anna, I will absolutely pray for your parish and for Christianity as a whole. I agree that left-wing ideology is infiltrating the Christian faith in a way that is damaging the ancient tradition that has passed from generation to generation for 2,000 years. I will also say that while I don’t agree with all of your positions, even on some social issues I imagine, there is no doubt that Christianity is under attack in America and around the world.
Click to expand...
jinc1019,
Indeed, Christianity is under attack, and this is a time for serious, dedicated prayer.

I welcome your prayers. The Pope certainly has mine.

Anna
 
Anna_Scott said:
. . . .I started a thread about the above issue with Catholic Women Religious entitled,
Vatican nun crackdown hits US group for ‘radical feminist’ ideas.

Someone merged my thread with another thread and the title was changed to
Vatican demands reform of American nuns’ leadership group [CWN]

The thread title has changed yet again and is now entitled,
NY Times writer misinforms re: LCWR issue.’ . . .
Click to expand...
Correction to the above. It looks like individual posters have changed the title in their posts to reflect NY Times writer misinforms re: LCWR issue.

The thread is still in the Catholic News section under the title of Vatican demands reform of American nuns’ leadership group [CWN].

My bad. 😊

Anna
 
Anna_Scott said:
Correction to the above. It looks like individual posters have changed the title in their posts to reflect NY Times writer misinforms re: LCWR issue.

The thread is still in the Catholic News section under the title of Vatican demands reform of American nuns’ leadership group [CWN].

My bad. 😊

Anna
Click to expand...
That’s ok…Easy mistake to make!
 
jinc1019 said:
Also, you may be right about Spong in a lot of ways…But he has become a poster-child for liberal Anglican theology in America, and while you are right he is retired, he has held these positions for a long time and served as a very liberal bishop. To the rest of the world, they look at Spong and think there are more like him in the Episcopal Church, and honestly, you cannot tell me that you believe that there isn’t a radical liberal wing to the Episcopal Church; I am not saying everyone is liberal, but many are very, very liberal. If I am so wrong about this, why are so many abandoning it?
Click to expand...
Well, people are abandoning the Episcopal Church for the same reason American Protestants in general are forever splitting from each other–they have an ecclesiology that justifies schism if it can be seen as an act furthering greater “purity.” Anglicans have been relatively immune to this disease, but apparently acceptance of same-sex relationships is the tipping point for a lot of folks. (I once thought it would be for me too, but when it came to the point I realized a great deal of this was simply prejudice and trying to keep my conservative friends and relations happy. Note that I’m not describing a conservative view of sexual relations as prejudice, but rather the treatment of homosexuality as a uniquely grave issue.)

“Liberal” can mean a lot of things. Especially when you use words like “extreme” or “very, very,” it becomes pretty much useless.

I prefer to speak of orthodoxy.

I don’t dispute that the present policies of the Episcopal Church with regard to sexual morality diverge from historic, traditional Christian views on a number of points. And I do not defend these divergences, although I’m more dubious about some than others. (Catholic attitudes found in official Catholic teachings also diverge from traditional ones to some degree–Augustine thought that what you call “NFP” was an abomination, for instance, though I know the arguments by which many Catholics try to deny this. But obviously the divergences are much lesser in your case and much more defensible.)

Nor do I dispute that there are a lot of heretics in the Episcopal Church, and that we are very slow to discipline heresy.

All I’m saying is that our official teachings with regard to the central truths of the historic Christian faith remain orthodox.

I have no particular brief for the Episcopal Church. I have a lot of misgivings about it as an ecclesiastical organization. My reasons for belonging to it are in a sense “accidental.” What matters to me is faithfulness to the particular community I am part of and not furthering further disunity among Christians. Indeed, I want to find ways of promoting unity and protesting against existing disunity, especially on the local level.

Edwin
 
jinc1019 said:
I think you are missing the point. It isn’t a “religious” opinion. It is either TRUTH that an unborn child is a human or isn’t. It’s not opinion…we are either right or wrong. We may not be able to determine precisely when a human is scientifically a “human” and not just cells, but why should we even entertain the possibility of permitting death to a human life? If we are truly unsure of when human life begins, why not just err on the side of NOT taking the life of an innocent unborn human rather than risk committing a terrible and immoral act? It is completely illogical. And while Christianity may very well be the foundation of Western Civilization and its values, abortion is no more about religion than the taking of a man or woman who is 40 years old is about religion.
Click to expand...
No I am not missing the point. Of course everyone can not possibly be right. That is certainly the truth. But now to “know” with 100% absolute certainty without some faith thrown in is another matter. That’s the point I think you may be missing. In a society of plural faiths and beliefs, and views, not everyone shares the same ones. This issue especially reflects such differences. Society then attempts to come up with laws for its land. Which may or not always reflect what you or I believe to be God’s truth. God bless you along your faith journey and peace.
 
Anna_Scott said:
Correction to the above. It looks like individual posters have changed the title in their posts to reflect NY Times writer misinforms re: LCWR issue.

The thread is still in the Catholic News section under the title of Vatican demands reform of American nuns’ leadership group [CWN].

My bad. 😊

Anna
Click to expand...
jinc1019 said:
That’s ok…Easy mistake to make!
Click to expand...
jinc1019,

I appreciate your kindness. 🙂

I found out later there was actually a 3rd thread entitled, NY Times writer misinforms re: LCWR issue, which was merged with the other two–which makes sense.

Anna
 
Anna_Scott said:
jinc1019,
I think if all orthodox Anglicans had remained in the Anglican Communion; the Episcopal Church might look differently than it does now. When orthodox Episcopalians leave, it opens the door for even more radical liberals to enter and gain ground. All the media attention about same-sex unions and ordinations of those in same-sex relationships is a huge advertisement for liberals, both churched and unchurched, who then flock to The Episcopal Church. This is how a Church is hijacked.

I will remain in TEC as long as I possibly can–as long as my Parish remains orthodox. At this point, the orthodox Anglicans, including Priests and Bishops, are not required to submit to or agree with the liberal actions/teachings of TEC leadership. We are not required to submit religious mind and will to our leadership as Catholics must submit to the Roman Pontiff.

Ironically, Catholics are very critical of the number of “denominations” and how non-Catholics church-hop to find what suits them. But–when we are hesitant to further fracture the Body of Christ, we are criticized for that too.
Click to expand...
Exactly! If all of the continuing Anglicans and orthodox Anglicans had never left TEC over the years, then we would be looking at a different Episcopal Church, I think. Everytime a parish or diocese leaves, the more radical TEC becomes.

The truth is, many orthodox Anglicans left the church and those of us who chose to stay “high and dry,” so to speak. I don’t fault anybody for following their conscience, however, what does 20+ different continuing
Anglican churches do for the communion and Anglicans in North America? It’s ridiculous! Only one church in America is recognized as being Anglican, according to England, and that is TEC. If the church completely abandons the faith and creeds, i’m gone…but that day is not today or tomorrow.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top