Can anyone explain the logic behind the stance of SSPX?

[JReducation]

The Pope is not above criticism. The Holy Father is a human being not God. Trying to make the Pope divine is the great error of many Catholics today.

How can I be a heretic when a deny no article of faith? Your assertion is ridiculous.

I was talking about infallible statements from the Pope. He has not made any. All his teachings on faith and morals that have been held always and everywhere as part of the ordinary Magisterium are Magisterial.

Vatican II is not part of the Magisterium.

The SSPX have never claimed their own Magisterium. That is Completely ridiculous. The SSPX have defended the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. The SSPX wants modern Churchmen to follow the Magisterium. The SsPX has been clear. The Church needs to follow the teachings of the prior Popes.

Cardinal Hoyo’s position that no one criticize the Pope is not Magisterial but an example of Modernism.

Benedict XVI is threatening to excommunicate a lot of people as heretics, people who hold positions such as yours. Whatever Canon Law says regarding excommunication does not bind the Pope. The Pope is the final interpreter of Canon Law. Canon Law exists at his pleasure, not ours.

Therefore, if he decides to excommunicate as heretics those who take positions such as your own, you’re OK with that?

JR

 

[catharina]

Of course, poor catharina, we all know you are quite wrong. It has been reported in many instances that the SSPX are in negotiations with Rome, and from reliable sources…please do your homework. To deny fact is so very modernist.

“Bishop Bernard Fellay, the superior general of the SSPX, has recently given indications that substantial progress has been made in the latest** negotiations with Rome.**”

source:cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=42203

Uh-oh. A group of unknoown others has hijacked the name of piouswman. So far their identity is known only as “we” (or “we all”). No matter maybe; she could use some help.

That B. Fellay imagines he is involved in negotiations is not news. He does imagine that.

 

[catharina]

Benedict XVI is threatening to excommunicate a lot of people as heretics, people who hold positions such as yours. Whatever Canon Law says regarding excommunication does not bind the Pope. The Pope is the final interpreter of Canon Law. Canon Law exists at his pleasure, not ours.

Therefore, if he decides to excommunicate as heretics those who take positions such as your own, you’re OK with that?

JR

That is what I find so incomprehensible. All know that Our Lord Himself said that the forces of hell will never overtake His Church yet there are some people who seem to say they don’t care if they are excommunicated from that very Church. Mind-boggling.

 

[elts1956]

Well most Catholics do not understand their faith. A Pope is only infallible when they speak Ex-Cathedra. The Holy Spirit only protects infallible Ex-Cathedra statements from the Pope. No Pope can invent new teachings. Therefore, each Pope must continue to teach and guard the Magisterium.

Right now for the last couple of decades, Churchmen have been in contradiction with prior Popes and Magisterial teaching.

With the SSPX and modern Churchmen the question is who is right? Who is following the Magistrium of the Church?

The modern Churchmen are not following the Magisterium of the Church. They are following error.
Ecumenism, religious liberty, separation between Church and state, modern Biblical exegesis, is all condemned by the Magisterium of the Church.

The Syllabus of Errors of Pope Pius IX has been ignored and contradicted by the modern Church.

The SSPX has tried to make it clear, there is an apostasy from the faith and the clergy are not following the Magisterium.

Most of the Catholic bishops and laity have lost the Catholic faith.

Please tell me in which encyclical the church has established a teaching against religious liberty.

 

[elts1956]

Well most Catholics do not understand their faith. A Pope is only infallible when they speak Ex-Cathedra. The Holy Spirit only protects infallible Ex-Cathedra statements from the Pope. No Pope can invent new teachings. Therefore, each Pope must continue to teach and guard the Magisterium.

Right now for the last couple of decades, Churchmen have been in contradiction with prior Popes and Magisterial teaching.

With the SSPX and modern Churchmen the question is who is right? Who is following the Magistrium of the Church?

The modern Churchmen are not following the Magisterium of the Church. They are following error.
Ecumenism, religious liberty, separation between Church and state, modern Biblical exegesis, is all condemned by the Magisterium of the Church.

The Syllabus of Errors of Pope Pius IX has been ignored and contradicted by the modern Church.

The SSPX has tried to make it clear, there is an apostasy from the faith and the clergy are not following the Magisterium.

Most of the Catholic bishops and laity have lost the Catholic faith.

Could you define what you mean with the “Magisterium” and “the Catholic faith”? My understanding of the Magisterium would be the bishops that gathered at the Second Vatican council and that the Catholic faith is expressed in the documents it produced, which has countinued to be taught by the later popes and bishops in communion with him.

Without hearing your definition, I can already guess that it differs from mine. If there are different opinions of what constitutes the Magisterium of the Church and what the Catholic faith really is, how are you supposed to know who is right? It was exactly this question that forced me to become a Catholic, because i realized this is just exactly why we need a pope - so that someone always have the last word in cases of different opinions. If you believe that you yourself can judge the judgement of the pope, then in my opinion that is not being Catholic but protestant.

Don’t know if it is a protestant opinion, but it is certainly not Catholic teaching.

 

[elts1956]

Vatican II is not part of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church because it was not a dogmatic council. Vatican II produced nothing infallible and declared nothing infallible. They had no infallible dogmatic defintions and anathemas like previous councils.

Vatican II was a pastoral council, so the documents are pastoral in nature and are not binding on anyone.

As I understand it, SSPX and other schismatic organizations declare that Vatican II produced nothing infallible because the Holy Spirit wasn’t invoked at the beginning of the council. What is your interpretation of "invoked’?

 

[elts1956]

Vatican II is not part of the Magisterium of the Catholic Church because it was not a dogmatic council. Vatican II produced nothing infallible and declared nothing infallible. They had no infallible dogmatic defintions and anathemas like previous councils.

Vatican II was a pastoral council, so the documents are pastoral in nature and are not binding on anyone.

Which is precisely the problem with the CCC, as well as the documents of VII: ambiguity. Notice the ambiguity of the CCC quote, and the precise wording of the other. What the CCC does not make clear is that the “truth to believe” must be that truth which has always been taught. Is it any wonder that Catholics are losing the faith in droves?

So if infallibility of a doctrine rests on its having always been “accepted” and “taught”, what would happen if a Pope after Vaticann II would exclaim a doctrine ex cathedra? Then, would you accept it?

 

[elts1956]

More falsehoods here…is it your intent to continually and without pause spread lies and therefore try to damage the SSPX? What kind of character stoops to this kind of action?

Are you looking at splinters in another’s eye PW. Oh, I see, the boulder in yours is blinding you.

 

[elts1956]

More falsehoods here…is it your intent to continually and without pause spread lies and therefore try to damage the SSPX? What kind of character stoops to this kind of action?

Uh-oh. A group of unknoown others has hijacked the name of piouswman. So far their identity is known only as “we” (or “we all”). No matter maybe; she could use some help.

That B. Fellay imagines he is involved in negotiations is not news. He does imagine that.

Of course, poor catharina, we all know you are quite wrong. It has been reported in many instances that the SSPX are in negotiations with Rome, and from reliable sources…please do your homework. To deny fact is so very modernist.

“Bishop Bernard Fellay, the superior general of the SSPX, has recently given indications that substantial progress has been made in the latest** negotiations with Rome.**”

source:cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=42203

Negotiations With the Pope. The head of the Roman Catholic Church. :rotfl NEGOTIATIONS?? Pardon me PW while I fall off my chair. And kudos to an expert in sarcasm:tiphat: It just drips from you.

 

[elts1956]

the pope can err on matters of discipline and administration. the liturgical debacle and the substantial changes after vatican ii are clearly the fault in part of the popes.

the sspx has a role to criticize the clergy of the church when it falls into laxity and worldliness or when it’s disciplines, even when condoned by a pope, are a bad idea. the common faithful catholic man is perfectly able to discern the good and bad fruits of the vatican.

but schism is a more henious sin then what they are justly opposed to. this is the problem and their contradiction.

obviously, disciplines such as ecumenism and the reform of the liturgy are not matters which are infallible, like doctrine and morals. we may disagree with things that the church changes because they change.

Don’t know if you have read your church history, or not, Dee Dee, but some dissenters have found their way from the frying pan into the fire. Luckily these days the Church has found other ways to discipline.

 

[elts1956]

the pope can err on matters of discipline and administration. the liturgical debacle and the substantial changes after vatican ii are clearly the fault in part of the popes.

the sspx has a role to criticize the clergy of the church when it falls into laxity and worldliness or when it’s disciplines, even when condoned by a pope, are a bad idea. the common faithful catholic man is perfectly able to discern the good and bad fruits of the vatican.

but schism is a more henious sin then what they are justly opposed to. this is the problem and their contradiction.

obviously, disciplines such as ecumenism and the reform of the liturgy are not matters which are infallible, like doctrine and morals. we may disagree with things that the church changes because they change.

Not really. From the CCC 2033 which you quoted the first part but not this:

“Thus from generation to generation, under the aegis and vigilance of the pastors, the “deposit” of Christian moral teaching has been handed on, a deposit composed of a characteristic body of rules, commandments, and virtues proceeding from faith in Christ and animated by charity.”

The “deposit” are the teachings held always and everywhere.

Would you list them please???

 

[elts1956]

The world’s Catholic population may be growing (not sure if it still is in relation to general world population growth, since that link you posted is several years old), but what kind of Faith do these Catholics have? Polls reveal that most Catholics are not living very Catholic lives. This is what I mean by losing the Faith. By the way, here’s another interesting link from the Vatican.

Looks like it was printed in Inja. What was the date and this was posted before. Newer info. please.

 

[elts1956]

The world’s Catholic population may be growing (not sure if it still is in relation to general world population growth, since that link you posted is several years old), but what kind of Faith do these Catholics have? Polls reveal that most Catholics are not living very Catholic lives. This is what I mean by losing the Faith. By the way, here’s another interesting link from the Vatican.

By your very own words you are implying that Rome itself should **not **be engaging in something that it is actually “engaging” in…talks and negotiations with SSPX! My, how confused you are…and to think that you of all people, are condemning the very actions of Rome itself! I thought you never questioned Rome, never questioned the pope…

SSPX is “negotiating”. The Vatican is "telling"and setting the limits. Quite difference. How is the beam in the eye doing PW?

 

[elts1956]

Catholics who are part of the Catholic Church have equal standing when it come to negotiations.

As Pope Benedict stated in his letter to the bishops, This is an in-Church dispute.

Does this mean I can call the Pope and tell him what “I” think?

 

[elts1956]

Catholics who are part of the Catholic Church have equal standing when it come to negotiations.

As Pope Benedict stated in his letter to the bishops, This is an in-Church dispute.

Nice, helpful, charitable comment.

Sometimes the truth hurts.

 

[elts1956]

Of course, poor catharina, we all know you are quite wrong. It has been reported in many instances that the SSPX are in negotiations with Rome, and from reliable sources…please do your homework. To deny fact is so very modernist.

“Bishop Bernard Fellay, the superior general of the SSPX, has recently given indications that substantial progress has been made in the latest** negotiations with Rome.**”

source:cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=42203

No doctrine has been changed. That’s the point. Too many people are lead to believe that policies engaged in since the Council are doctrines. They are not. Ecumenism is not a doctrine. It is a policy. “Outside the Church There Is No Salvation” is a Dogma of the Church. It is detrimental to Ecumenism though. So, the impression has been given by recent Popes that there actually is “Salvation Outside the Church”.

We’re not saying “Tomato…TomAAHTo.” The Churchmen are saying “mmmrnrurrmmAAATTooooahhahh” to the Protestant/Jewish/Muslim “Potato”

Hi Gerard. Pope John Paul’s Ecumenical policy is one that is difficult to understand. Read Et Unum Sint if you haven’t. JP is saying any Protestant Church that has even “some” of the truth of the Catholic Faith has never left the church. These churches that are even somewhat in accord with the Catholic Church receive their grace of salvation through the Catholic Church, but not in the full measure as if they were complete members of the Faith.

 

[elts1956]

Piouswoman…As I understand it, “negotiations” have been on-going for nearly 40 years now. How much londer do they want to “talk”.
Just think…A 40 year engagement but still no marriage.

 

[pnewton]

There needs to be a schism between true Catholicism and the heretical liberal Modernist Catholicism.

I agree in principle with what you are saying, but it is not as easy in practice. When the situation is clear-cut, like ordaining women priests, there have been excommunications. In many other areas, what you may call a liberal or modernist is not how the pope in union with the bishops see as liberal or modernist. Like many other labels, these terms lack practical application more often than not. It is not as if they liberals have set up their own chain of chapels and declared their defiance to papal authority.

No, the fight againt modernism will go on inside the Church, not outside. It is only in this battleground that those who have remained faithful to the Holy Father will have a voice. Robbing the Church of the very people who the Church needed most was perhaps the greatest evil of LeFebvre’s actions. Fortunately, there have been others who have risen in their place. The traditionalist here will find many allies in the battle against modernism among the orthodox Catholics who, while not tied to the TLM for various reasons, understand their attachment and agree on 99% of other issues.

 

[catharina]

Does this mean I can call the Pope and tell him what “I” think?

Sure.

Visit him, tell him what you think, tell him why your ideas are far superior to his (despite the grace of office that comes with the Papacy) and then tell him your demands. When the Swiss Guards escort you out and into a “quiet place,” then you continue shouting your demands.

 

[elts1956]

Sure.

Visit him, tell him what you think, tell him why your ideas are far superior to his (despite the grace of office that comes with the Papacy) and then tell him your demands. When the Swiss Guards escort you out and into a “quiet place,” then you continue shouting your demands.

Quiet Place!!! Oh, do you have his phone number?