Can anyone Help answer these questions about Peter?

[DLG123]

On whom is the church build… Peter or Jesus?

1 Corinthians 3:11 “For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”

Who was the Rock… Peter or Jesus?

1 Corinthians 10:4b “For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.”

Here’s some other interesting facts about Peter:

1. In Acts 15, the story of the first church council at Jerusalem. Who led the council? Verse 13 tells us, “After these had finished speaking, James made this answer saying, ‘Brethren, listen to me.’” Who was it that was the head of the council? Not Peter, but James. If Peter had been the pope, he would have led the council
2. Peter was married: Celibacy is something that the Catholic church has required of priests and nuns, however if Peter was the first pope, how is it that he was married putting him in direct contradiction with the doctrines of Catholicism.
   Matthew 8:14 “Now when Jesus had come into Peter’s house, He saw his wife’s mother lying sick with a fever.”
3. Scripture gives no indication that Peter was supreme over all the other disciples. This is evident in that no apostle held a supreme position at any time during the New Testament. Luke 22:24-30 gives the account just prior to Christ’s crucifixion. Don’t you think all the times they questioned Jesus as to who the greatest was, He (Jesus) would have indicated Peter, if he was to be the head of the church?

This is a discussion I am having with someone on another site. Any help would be great
Thanks
DLG

 

[ltwin]

On point 2, celibacy is a matter of discipline, not doctrine for the Catholic Church regarding clergy. If you study history, you will find married popes. It doesn’t go against any doctrine. It is just a rule that the Catholic Church thinks is a good one.

 

[byeveryword]

On whom is the church build… Peter or Jesus?

1 Corinthians 3:11 “For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”

Who was the Rock… Peter or Jesus?

1 Corinthians 10:4b “For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.”

Here’s some other interesting facts about Peter:

1. In Acts 15, the story of the first church council at Jerusalem. Who led the council? Verse 13 tells us, “After these had finished speaking, James made this answer saying, ‘Brethren, listen to me.’” Who was it that was the head of the council? Not Peter, but James. If Peter had been the pope, he would have led the council
2. Peter was married: Celibacy is something that the Catholic church has required of priests and nuns, however if Peter was the first pope, how is it that he was married putting him in direct contradiction with the doctrines of Catholicism.
   Matthew 8:14 “Now when Jesus had come into Peter’s house, He saw his wife’s mother lying sick with a fever.”
3. Scripture gives no indication that Peter was supreme over all the other disciples. This is evident in that no apostle held a supreme position at any time during the New Testament. Luke 22:24-30 gives the account just prior to Christ’s crucifixion. Don’t you think all the times they questioned Jesus as to who the greatest was, He (Jesus) would have indicated Peter, if he was to be the head of the church?

This is a discussion I am having with someone on another site. Any help would be great
Thanks
DLG

If one were to read the early patristic writings of the church, one would read that the apostles were not bishops. They appointed bishops over various cities and regions.
Early tradition states that the apostles chose James to be the first bishop of Jerusalem. As Bishop of Jerusalem, James had the final word on church policy regarding the Gentile believers of Antioch. There is in the writings of Ignatius and in the Constitutions of the Apostles that the apostles were to the bishops, as the Sanhedrin were to the High Priest… advisors as to the scriptural authority of doctrinal issues. Furthermore, deacons were to the bishop as Jesus Christ was to his heavenly Father.

On the other hand, it quite obvious from the book of Acts, that God gave the apostle Peter the specific revelation of opening the gospel to the Gentiles, while God chose the apostle Paul to bring the gospel to the Gentiles. The apostle Paul says that his ministry was to the Gentiles, and Peter’s ministry was to the Jews. Perhaps, this is why both Peter and Paul suffered martyrdom in Rome…St. Peter was ministering to the Jews, and St. Paul was ministering to the Gentiles in Rome.

 

[KathleenGee]

Peter was not supreme over the other apostles.

But if you look at the Gospels, he is usually at the fore front of scenarios…on the impulsive side…a fish and potato kind of guy…simple and forthright.

But Christ did name him the rock upon which the Church would be built. So Peter is like Grand Central Station of the Church.

Peter and the Apostles are the human beings, the ‘treasures made in clay’ who are grounded upon the cornerstone of Jesus Christ as the foundation of the Church.

Yes, Peter was married, and we can assume that his wife accompanied him. I would also think that at Pentecost and the Resurrection of Christ, the lives and movement of the Apostles through the Holy Spirit took on a new dynamic. I do not see them much having a normal marriage any more, especially when Peter was then led to Rome.

St. John the Evangelist was celibate. And there many who converted but preferred to remain celibate for Christ, so I would imagine the Apostles and those personal to them, began a new life in the Holy Spirit, saw their great mandate to preach the Gospel unto all the earth.

There were celibate clerics then. And marital sexuality among Christians was more for procreation, in contrast to the behaviors of those in society surrounding them in the Roman Empire. Likewise, back to the married life of St. Peter, at the earliest gatherings of the faithful in Rome, it was documented at the end of the gathering, public vows would be made to not lie or steal or commit adultery. There was great practice in the belief of the permanency of marriage according to Christ, and this sanctified understanding of marriage of Christ could only come through St. Peter and the other apostles.

 

[SteveVH]

Here’s some other interesting facts about Peter:

1. In Acts 15, the story of the first church council at Jerusalem. Who led the council? Verse 13 tells us, “After these had finished speaking, James made this answer saying, ‘Brethren, listen to me.’” Who was it that was the head of the council? Not Peter, but James. If Peter had been the pope, he would have led the council.

Probably best to tackle these one at a time. You need to re-read the 15th chapter of Acts. As you are aware there was a dispute concerning whether or not non-Jewish Christians should held to the Mosaic laws, in particular, circumcision. This question was brought to the Apostles and presbyters (bishops) in Jerusalem. There apparently was quite a discussion. Finally, Peter got up and spoke and when he had finished "The whole assembly fell silent…". In other words, end of discussion. James’ contribution was basically a suggestion on how to carry out the decision made by Peter not to hold them to Mosaic law, which was agreed upon by all of them. It is important to notice that Peter certainly listened to the others and took their words into consideration, but when the final decision was to be made, it was made by Peter.

 

[KathleenGee]

The Holy Spirit worked in a particular way through Peter, as Steve pointed out.

We as Catholics experience this movement when Our Holy Father speaks in guiding us. He can talk, walk, speak, joke, teach…but when it is for the universal church to hear, we experience the Holy Spirit, and the fruits are communion, profound peace, and love, guiding us closer to Jesus in a way that all followers can comprehend, no matter how far away or new the local church.

It is a pain for me to see people condemn the papacy on account of some errant popes…who likewise lived in chaotic times.

 

[InspiritCarol]

Personally, if I were just looking to scripture for an answer to something, I would and will always give all weight and significance to the word that purportedly came directly from our Lord’s lips than to those interpretations, regardless of inspiration, given by anyone else.

In other words who are you serving when you try to use another’s words to distort the meaning of our Savior and Lord’s?

Jesus very clearly and simply said Matt 16:18: I will name you “Rock” and on this rock (not some other rock somewhere else) I will build my Church. Jesus could have said: I name you Rock BUT on this other rock over here (pointing somewhere else) I will build my church… Does that REALLY make ANY sense? Why on Earth even say such a thing? That’s just silly and Jesus is never silly.

It is really forced to try to make this simple phrase mean something else. The only reason this verse is twisted is in an effort to rewrite history so that these new denominations can say that Catholicism (all 2000 years of it) is somehow bogus and defunct.

All you have to do is think; “By their fruits you will know them”. Up until the middle of the last century, there has been one Church (joined in heart with our Orthodox brethren). That one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church clearly traces its unbroken laying-of-hands spiritual lineage directly back to Peter. Think about that and try not to be blown away.

This is not rocket science here. For every one bad thing that the anti-Christs of this world would love to pin on the “Catholic Church”, there are 100 million good things to offset it. Good things don’t get press. Does anyone have any clue of the charity I did this week as a Catholic? I hope not. I did it for God’s glory, not Catholics. That is how we work.

Of course Christ is the foundation of everything. He is the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end. This fact does not and should not take away from anyone else being able to be rocks (bases from which good may come) within that infinite sphere. Just like saying Jesus is the Great High Priest, does not mean that there can be no other Priests, so too if Jesus himself calls someone “Rock”, I quiver for the one who would try to take that name away from that man.

 

[Lutgardis]

On whom is the church build… Peter or Jesus?

1 Corinthians 3:11 “For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”

Who was the Rock… Peter or Jesus?

1 Corinthians 10:4b “For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.”

Here’s some other interesting facts about Peter:

1. In Acts 15, the story of the first church council at Jerusalem. Who led the council? Verse 13 tells us, “After these had finished speaking, James made this answer saying, ‘Brethren, listen to me.’” Who was it that was the head of the council? Not Peter, but James. If Peter had been the pope, he would have led the council
2. Peter was married: Celibacy is something that the Catholic church has required of priests and nuns, however if Peter was the first pope, how is it that he was married putting him in direct contradiction with the doctrines of Catholicism.
   Matthew 8:14 “Now when Jesus had come into Peter’s house, He saw his wife’s mother lying sick with a fever.”
3. Scripture gives no indication that Peter was supreme over all the other disciples. This is evident in that no apostle held a supreme position at any time during the New Testament. Luke 22:24-30 gives the account just prior to Christ’s crucifixion. Don’t you think all the times they questioned Jesus as to who the greatest was, He (Jesus) would have indicated Peter, if he was to be the head of the church?

My view would be that of course, in the ultimate sense, Jesus is the Rock upon which the Church is built. But as we all know, Jesus came to build His Church through the means of blessing others to share in his mission. His has done this faithfully through the apostles and those who would follow in their footsteps. Clearly, contextually, Jesus is saying to Peter, and not to Himself in Matt 16:19 “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Peter was married, as you have pointed out. The church acknowledges this, as well as the fact that other popes throughout history married, also.

Insofar as the council which took place in Acts 15, Peter says in vv 7-11: “After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

When James speak up at the end, it is merely to confirm that what Peter was speaking was truth from God. For he says in Acts 15:13-15 “Brothers, listen to me. 14 Simon has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. 15 The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:” . . . then he quotes from the OT.

It is noteworthy that Peter seems to be the first one through whom the Lord chose to propagate the truth that God was calling the Gentiles, along with Jewish believers. This revelation was given to Peter in a miraculous vision in Acts 10 (though it does seem that this knowledge was also given earlier on to Paul and Barnabas, privately, for the purpose of fulfilling their personal ministry. They, too, confirmed Peter’s words by their testimony in Acts 15:12).

 

[SteveVH]

On whom is the church build… Peter or Jesus?

1 Corinthians 3:11 “For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”

Who was the Rock… Peter or Jesus?

1 Corinthians 10:4b “For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.”

Here’s some other interesting facts about Peter:

1. In Acts 15, the story of the first church council at Jerusalem. Who led the council? Verse 13 tells us, “After these had finished speaking, James made this answer saying, ‘Brethren, listen to me.’” Who was it that was the head of the council? Not Peter, but James. If Peter had been the pope, he would have led the council
2. Peter was married: Celibacy is something that the Catholic church has required of priests and nuns, however if Peter was the first pope, how is it that he was married putting him in direct contradiction with the doctrines of Catholicism.
   Matthew 8:14 “Now when Jesus had come into Peter’s house, He saw his wife’s mother lying sick with a fever.”
3. Scripture gives no indication that Peter was supreme over all the other disciples. This is evident in that no apostle held a supreme position at any time during the New Testament. Luke 22:24-30 gives the account just prior to Christ’s crucifixion. Don’t you think all the times they questioned Jesus as to who the greatest was, He (Jesus) would have indicated Peter, if he was to be the head of the church?

This is a discussion I am having with someone on another site. Any help would be great
Thanks
DLG

Considering the fact that you state that you are Catholic, are these your questions or are you relating a non-Cathlolic’s arguments in order to refute them? I’ve heard all of these before and none of them hold water as they relate to Peter’s primacy. Just curious.

 

[Big_Dummy]

Eph 2:20

A foundation in Biblical times consisted of bedrock with stones placed on top of that. Jesus is our bedrock, all the apostles and prophets make up the stones of rest of the compostie like foundation. Jesus is also the conerstone too.

 

[pablope]

On whom is the church build… Peter or Jesus?

1 Corinthians 3:11 “For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”

Who was the Rock… Peter or Jesus?

1 Corinthians 10:4b “For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.”

Here’s some other interesting facts about Peter:

This is a discussion I am having with someone on another site. Any help would be great
Thanks
DLG

From some accounts in the Gospel (and Acts), one cab gain insights in Peter’s character, that tells why he was singled out by Jesus.

Example is the account after the Agony.

From Mark:

54And Peter followed him afar off, even into the palace of the high priest: and he sat with the servants, and warmed himself at the fire.

66And as Peter was beneath in the palace, there cometh one of the maids of the high priest:

67And when she saw Peter warming himself, she looked upon him, and said, And thou also wast with Jesus of Nazareth.

71But he began to curse and to swear, saying, I know not this man of whom ye speak.

72And the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.

See, Peter is the only one mentioned as going to the palace where Jesus was brought after His arrest. And where are the other apostles?

This shows his love for the Lord, showing he is ready to follow Jesus. And also, he is the only one brave enough to be seen in the courtyard, being visible, mingling.

This speaks of courage and bravery of Peter. Brave enough to be close to Jesus and be seen. Traits the Lord saw in Peter, leadership qualities.

But of course, his moment of weakness came in his denials. But what does he do? He recognizes his denials and weeps and repents.

 

[PJM]

MY REPLY WILL BE IN TWO CONSECUTIVEPOST DUE TO SPACE: PART 1 of 2

**“DLG123”

Can anyone Help answer these questions about Peter? **

Yes I can and will. But first some advice. The Bible speaks about Divine THINGS. Unless one is trained and qualified, self-interpretation will lead to FAR more errors than correctly understood passages. I expect because of the number of verses you provide that my response will be TWO POST.

** 2nd. Peter 1: 16-21 ** “For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. … And we have the prophetic word made more sure.*** You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.*** First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”

Matt.13:9-12 “He who has ears, let him hear." Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.” For to him who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. ….“ Understanding is a FRUIT of true Faith, which only comes from God. Simply because one says they “have faith” is NO indication that it is God’s True Faith.

Eph.3: 9 to 12 “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church [SINGULAR: meaning THE CATHOLIC Church] the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confidence of access through our [TRUE] faith in him

One can know this and Prove by History. When this was spoken, wriiten and included in the Bible the CC of toady was THEE ONLY Christian Chirch’ Faith in the WORLD, The Protestant Revolution was still 1,000 YEARS AWAY.

On whom is the church build… Peter or Jesus?

Actually BOTH: It’s one of those “you can’t have One [FULLY/ TRUTHFULLY] without the other. Our Faith [what we believe] is Founded on Christ. Our Catholic Church is founded as Christ Himself instituted on Peter and the Apostles.

Eph. 4: 1-7 “I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is **one body [WHICH MEANS ONE CHURCH] **and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, **one faith, [Meaning only One set of beliefs] **one baptism,
one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
**
Eph. 2: 18-22 **“ for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,[NOTABLY SINGULAR] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord;

**John.10: 16 **“And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. ***So there shall be one flock, one shepherd” ***

SEE NEXT Post

 

[PJM]

Post 2 of 2

1 Corinthians 3:11 “For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”

“Foundation” as it is applied here indeed means Christ because it speaks of Teaching. ALL that the Apostles Teach originates from what they were taught and learned from Christ himself.

Who was the Rock… Peter or Jesus?

1 Corinthians 10:4b “For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.”

Catholic RSV Bible: 1 Cor. 10:4 “and all drank the same supernatural drink. For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ.”

***In context this refers to the Jewish nation and the OT. But is does still have relevance to us today. READ Mt. 16: 15-19 CAREFULLY. Here from the New King James: “He [Jesus] said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. And I [Jesus] also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock … I will build My church, … and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. And I [Jesus] will give you [now have given to you] the keys [ALL of Them] of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

So when the “rock” speaks of teachings and beliefs the “Rock” is Christ. When speaking of the Church founded by Christ: clearly and indisputably Christ CHOOSE to have Peter [as the chief Builder… And Christ Himself as the Architect… Build and RUN Christ Church for Him. That is what the verse is saying. **

Here’s some other interesting facts about Peter:

1. In Acts 15, the story of the first church council at Jerusalem. Who led the council? Verse 13 tells us, “After these had finished speaking, James made this answer saying, ‘Brethren, listen to me.’” Who was it that was the head of the council? Not Peter, but James. If Peter had been the pope, he would have led the council

I’m not permitted the right to judge intent. BUT this is clearly taken out of context and therefore makes an improper point. Here for your edification and the SAKE of TRUTH is the actual account. NOTICE James [Bishop Of Jerusalem] is ONLY Confirming what Peter Just TAUGHT.

**Mt. 4-16 **When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them. The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. And after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God who knows the heart bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us; and he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their hearts by faith. Now therefore why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will." … After they finished speaking, James replied, "Brethren, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. [15] And with this the words of the prophets agree, as it is written, …that the rest of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who has made these things known from of old. 'Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God,

Peter was married: Celibacy is something that the Catholic church has required of priests and nuns, however if Peter was the first pope, how is it that he was married putting him in direct contradiction with the doctrines of Catholicism.

Ummmmm. It’s NOT a “doctrine” but ONLY a “practice” which can be changed. Why it won’t be is a separate issue. It was Not until the 13th. Century [if my memory is correct] that celibacy became a mandated requirement. KEEP IN MIND that Mt. 16:19 gives ‘The Church / the Seat of Peter” ALL THE AUTHORITY needed to make laws, cancel them and enforce them.

Scripture gives no indication that Peter was supreme over all the other disciples. This is evident in that no apostle held a supreme position at any time during the New Testament.

***Really [PM me and I’ll provide a list of 50 evidences from the Bible for you.” *****BUT note the clarity of what Matt. Shares. D R Cath. Mt. 10:2-3 **“And the names of the twelve Apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother 3 James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the publican, and James the son of Alpheus, and Thaddeus, “

K J Prot. Now the names of the twelve apostles are these:** first, Simon, who is called Peter, **and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus

NOTICE Peter is SPECIFIED AS FIRST!

God Bless,
Pat**

 

[DLG123]

Thanks for all the posts and reply’s I havent got through them all yet just got back intown from a well deserved vacation. But I will be reading all and responding soon. Thanks for the patience.

DLG

 

[DLG123]

On point 2, celibacy is a matter of discipline, not doctrine for the Catholic Church regarding clergy. If you study history, you will find married popes. It doesn’t go against any doctrine. It is just a rule that the Catholic Church thinks is a good one.

I tried to tell him that this is not a doctrine and stated that St. Paul was celibate and that a unmarried man is focused on the things of God. I tried make a small list of a Priests daily duties and responsibilites that are required such as Mass, Liturgy of the hours, basically being on call 24-7 for distributing the Sacrament of Annointing the Sick to Parishoners, daily operations of the Parish… and so on.but that made no impact.

DLG

 

[DLG123]

If one were to read the early patristic writings of the church, one would read that the apostles were not bishops. They appointed bishops over various cities and regions.
Early tradition states that the apostles chose James to be the first bishop of Jerusalem. As Bishop of Jerusalem, James had the final word on church policy regarding the Gentile believers of Antioch. There is in the writings of Ignatius and in the Constitutions of the Apostles that the apostles were to the bishops, as the Sanhedrin were to the High Priest… advisors as to the scriptural authority of doctrinal issues. Furthermore, deacons were to the bishop as Jesus Christ was to his heavenly Father.

On the other hand, it quite obvious from the book of Acts, that God gave the apostle Peter the specific revelation of opening the gospel to the Gentiles, while God chose the apostle Paul to bring the gospel to the Gentiles. The apostle Paul says that his ministry was to the Gentiles, and Peter’s ministry was to the Jews. Perhaps, this is why both Peter and Paul suffered martyrdom in Rome…St. Peter was ministering to the Jews, and St. Paul was ministering to the Gentiles in Rome.

What are some good early patristic writings that I could go read and where would I find these resourses?

Thanks
DLG

 

[DLG123]

Peter was not supreme over the other apostles.

But if you look at the Gospels, he is usually at the fore front of scenarios…on the impulsive side…a fish and potato kind of guy…simple and forthright.

Fish and potato guy… I love it!!!

But Christ did name him the rock upon which the Church would be built. So Peter is like Grand Central Station of the Church.

Peter and the Apostles are the human beings, the ‘treasures made in clay’ who are grounded upon the cornerstone of Jesus Christ as the foundation of the Church.

Yes, Peter was married, and we can assume that his wife accompanied him. I would also think that at Pentecost and the Resurrection of Christ, the lives and movement of the Apostles through the Holy Spirit took on a new dynamic. I do not see them much having a normal marriage any more, especially when Peter was then led to Rome.

This is a very good point I never thought of it that way. But I bet you are probably right. I can only imagine seing the Glorified Lord and how that would DRAMATICALLY change the whole sphere of your thinking and behavior!

St. John the Evangelist was celibate. And there many who converted but preferred to remain celibate for Christ, so I would imagine the Apostles and those personal to them, began a new life in the Holy Spirit, saw their great mandate to preach the Gospel unto all the earth.

There were celibate clerics then. And marital sexuality among Christians was more for procreation, in contrast to the behaviors of those in society surrounding them in the Roman Empire. Likewise, back to the married life of St. Peter, at the earliest gatherings of the faithful in Rome, it was documented at the end of the gathering, public vows would be made to not lie or steal or commit adultery. There was great practice in the belief of the permanency of marriage according to Christ, and this sanctified understanding of marriage of Christ could only come through St. Peter and the other apostles.

Great post!!!
DLG

 

[DLG123]

Probably best to tackle these one at a time. You need to re-read the 15th chapter of Acts. As you are aware there was a dispute concerning whether or not non-Jewish Christians should held to the Mosaic laws, in particular, circumcision. This question was brought to the Apostles and presbyters (bishops) in Jerusalem. There apparently was quite a discussion. Finally, Peter got up and spoke and when he had finished "The whole assembly fell silent…". In other words, end of discussion. James’ contribution was basically a suggestion on how to carry out the decision made by Peter not to hold them to Mosaic law, which was agreed upon by all of them. It is important to notice that Peter certainly listened to the others and took their words into consideration, but when the final decision was to be made, it was made by Peter.

That is a very good rebuttal to the question. I guess the reasoning the person is using is that James spoke after Peter so he was “in charge”. Just my thought. The way some do scriptural pretzels is amazing!

Thanks
DLG

 

[DLG123]

Personally, if I were just looking to scripture for an answer to something, I would and will always give all weight and significance to the word that purportedly came directly from our Lord’s lips than to those interpretations, regardless of inspiration, given by anyone else

In other words who are you serving when you try to use another’s words to distort the meaning of our Savior and Lord’s?

I agree that when Christ speaks His words carry weight that would break a normal mans jaw!

Jesus very clearly and simply said Matt 16:18: I will name you “Rock” and on this rock (not some other rock somewhere else) I will build my Church. Jesus could have said: I name you Rock BUT on this other rock over here (pointing somewhere else) I will build my church… Does that REALLY make ANY sense? Why on Earth even say such a thing? That’s just silly and Jesus is never silly.

It is really forced to try to make this simple phrase mean something else. The only reason this verse is twisted is in an effort to rewrite history so that these new denominations can say that Catholicism (all 2000 years of it) is somehow bogus and defunct.

All you have to do is think; “By their fruits you will know them”. Up until the middle of the last century, there has been one Church (joined in heart with our Orthodox brethren). That one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church clearly traces its unbroken laying-of-hands spiritual lineage directly back to Peter. Think about that and try not to be blown away.

This is not rocket science here. For every one bad thing that the anti-Christs of this world would love to pin on the “Catholic Church”, there are 100 million good things to offset it. Good things don’t get press. Does anyone have any clue of the charity I did this week as a Catholic? I hope not. I did it for God’s glory, not Catholics. That is how we work.

Just as Christ said Don’t let your left hand know what your right hand is doing! (Probably not the exact quote but I think and dancing pretty close to it.

Of course Christ is the foundation of everything. He is the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end. This fact does not and should not take away from anyone else being able to be rocks (bases from which good may come) within that infinite sphere. Just like saying Jesus is the Great High Priest, does not mean that there can be no other Priests, so too if Jesus himself calls someone “Rock”, I quiver for the one who would try to take that name away from that man.

Very well said if the Lord gives you a “title” I would not want to be the man who tried to diminish or destroy that honor that was bestowed on him!

 

[TimothyH]

On whom is the church build… Peter or Jesus?

1 Corinthians 3:11 “For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”

Who was the Rock… Peter or Jesus?

The rock upon which the temple was built was seen by the ancient Jews as a cap-stone which sealed off a long shaft which led down to Sheol, the dark abode of the dead. The tmeple therefor, was halfway between Heaven and Hell and was where God dwelt with men. In saying, “You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the netherworld will not prevail against it” would have been immediately recognizable by the first century Jews present as a reference to the rock upon which the temple was built.

Paul’s comments in 1 Corinthians 3 have nothing to do with Peter and the rock upon which the temple/church is built. Paul is using alegory to teach the Corinthians about factions and divisions. Some in the Church were aligning themselves with Paul, while others were aligning themselves with other Church leaders, and Paul’s point was that the Church is based on Jesus, not on humans.

What is Apollos, after all, and what is Paul? Ministers through whom you became believers, just as the Lord assigned each one. I planted, Apollos watered, but God caused the growth. Therefore, neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who causes the growth. The one who plants and the one who waters are equal, and each will receive wages in proportion to his labor. For we are God’s co-workers; you are God’s field, God’s building. According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthains 3:6-11)

This is what happens when we look at individual scripture verses without looking at what the surrounding verses say and without understanding who the author and his audience was and the social context under which they operated. Interpreting the individual scripture verses outside of their context is not the Catholic way. It is the way most Evangelicals interpret scripture but not the way Catholics do it.

1. In Acts 15, the story of the first church council at Jerusalem. Who led the council? Verse 13 tells us, “After these had finished speaking, James made this answer saying, ‘Brethren, listen to me.’” Who was it that was the head of the council? Not Peter, but James. If Peter had been the pope, he would have led the council

Peter would not have made a declaration of policy while in the territory governed by James. That was a consideration that modern leaders still follow. The Governor of one state does not go to another state and declare policy for that other state. Remember when the president of Mexico came to the USA and started telling us what to do, how everyone was in a fit over it? Remember when Obama went to Europe and started giving speeches on US foreign policy? Same deal here.

Peter was being a good political leader. As James was the head of the Church in Jerusalem, Peter defferred to James to make the policy statement. That’s all it is. That’s the way good political leaders operated, and still do.

-Tim-