Can anyone help...

[SpiritFire]

I am a Roman Catholic. I am also beginning to investigate facets of the Orthodox church. I spend a great part of my day studying Latin, the structure of the Mass, how things are put together, chants, rubrics…etc. As a musician, I suppose I love structure and order, not to mention a mass can be more fulfilling if you really know it. SO here I am, swamped in what seems like an infinite amount of stuff I can barely read , and I have a few questions:

1. What are the books used in the Divine Liturgy? (i.e., are there parallels to the Missal, Lectionary, Gradual, etc.) How many different types of Liturgies are there?
2. Are they always in (koine) Greek?
3. What is a good place (a website or something) for me to learn the basics of the whole deal, perhaps in English?

Also, did the Latin liturgy come after the Greek or did they kind of “grow up together”?

Thanks a million to anyone who can provide an answer of any sort!

 

[Hesychios]

Father Louis Bouyer wrote an excellent book on the earliest development of liturgy, called Eucharist. I highly recommend it.

According to Father Bouyer, basically, the liturgy developed separately in each region, and was greatly influenced by synagog practice in the local area. Then of course, the churches in the big cities came to dominate the practices of the churches around them and the various liturgical traditions grew out of that.

The oldest formalized Christian liturgy is generally agreed by many if not most scholars to be what we today call the liturgy of Saint James. Nonetheless it has gone through many incremental stages of organic development, which is why it is served with some noticeable variation from place to place.

If you are primarily interested in the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom/St Basil (the Greek Orthodox principle liturgy), it would be helpful if you visited a parish somewhere once or twice to get the feel for it, even before you do any reading. Don’t necessarily even follow in the pew book, just observe and pray along as you wish. After which I would recommend a book by Nicholas Cabasilas called the Commentary on the Divine Liturgy. That should get you started.

In the east liturgical theology is a big deal, so if you study it, you will get a good grasp of the beliefs of Orthodox. This book, an Introduction to Liturgical Theology by father Schmemann could possibly be a help, but honestly I haven’t read it myself

A text of the Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom in English is available here.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I am a Roman Catholic. I am also beginning to investigate facets of the Orthodox church. I spend a great part of my day studying Latin, the structure of the Mass, how things are put together, chants, rubrics…etc. As a musician, I suppose I love structure and order, not to mention a mass can be more fulfilling if you really know it. SO here I am, swamped in what seems like an infinite amount of stuff I can barely read , and I have a few questions:

1. What are the books used in the Divine Liturgy? (i.e., are there parallels to the Missal, Lectionary, Gradual, etc.) How many different types of Liturgies are there?

In the Byzantine Rite there’s two primary Liturgies. The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is what is used for a great majority of the year. The Divine Liturgy of St. Basil the Great is used 10 times a year during Lent, Easter, Nativity and his feast day of January 1st.

If you’re Roman Catholic, wouldn’t you want to investigate the Eastern Catholic Churches instead? The beauty of this is that you can attend Liturgies and it will fulfill the Sunday Obligation.

1. Are they always in (koine) Greek?

It depends on the Church. The Greek Church will use Greek. The Ukrainians will use Church Slavonic or Ukrainian. The are also those who use Arabic, etc. In North America, some will use English, especiall the Eastern Catholics.

1. What is a good place (a website or something) for me to learn the basics of the whole deal, perhaps in English?

I usually just go to forums and then search and read up. There are many books out there as well. I haven’t found one site such as Catholic Answers that has a lot of information.

Also, did the Latin liturgy come after the Greek or did they kind of “grow up together”?

Thanks a million to anyone who can provide an answer of any sort!

I’m trying to firgure this out myself but in many aspects the Greek came before the Latin.

 

[Hesychios]

I’m trying to firgure this out myself but in many aspects the Greek came before the Latin.

The liturgy in the city of Rome was originally in Greek.

I think this is probably true for the church in Gaul as well, since it seems to have been influenced a great deal by missioners from the churches in Asia Minor.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

If you’re looking for the complete set of books that is used at the Byzantine Divine Liturgy, then you’re really looking for a small library. I’ll do my best to list all the books for you.

1. Liturgicon = The most fundamental book for the DL, typically only used by the priest(s) and deacon(s). The most complete Liturgicon will have the complete texts for the invariable parts of the Divine Services (Liturgies of John Chrysostom and Basil, Orthros [aka Matins] and Vespers, Compline, etc.)
2. Euchologion/Trebnyk = The services for the various Sacraments such as Baptism and Chrismation, Holy Anointing, Marriage, etc. Also contains other “non-Sacramental” rituals such as the Rite of Churching a Child, Rite of Burial, etc.
3. Horologion/Chasoslav = The book containing the invariable parts of the Liturgy of the Hours.
4. Evangelion = the Gospel boook
5. Apostolos = the Epistles
6. Psalter = the Book of Psalms plus a few extra canticles.
7. Ochtoechos/Eight Tones = The books containing the Eight Tone cycle of hymns, Psalms, Canticles, Canons, etc. Usually no less than 4 volumes
8. Menaion = The cycle of feasts. A complete Menaion will be 12 volumes and will contain the feasts for every day of the year. The feasts contained in the Menaion are any feasts who’s dates are not dependent on the date of Easter (saints feast days, Christmas, Epiphany, Transfiguration, etc.). The Menaion is sometimes divided into the “General Menaion” (saints feast days) and the “Festal Menaion” (All the major feasts, except Pascha/Easter).
9. Lenten Triodion = the book(s) containing all the services for Great Lent. This is sometimes available in a one-volume edition. The Melkite Eparchy of Newton has a four-volume edition.
10. Pentecostarion = the books for Pascha and all the Feasts who’s dates are tied to Pascha (i.e. Ascension, Pentecost, etc.). Again, the Melkites use a four-volume edition of the Pentecostarion, but there are also one-volume editions out there. Usually, however, those editions are fairly hefty in size, weight and price.

Typically none of these books will have the music written out in them. The various chanting styles used in the Byzantine Churches are most commonly learned by spending time at the Cantor’s Stand and simply getting used to the melodies. Often times there are set melodies that are learned and then applied to numerous texts.

I hope this answers some of your questions.

 

[SpiritFire]

WOW! Thank you! Every one is a great help! And I thought the Roman Rite had a lot of liturgical books!!
One more thing to clarify: What is the difference between the Byzantine Rite and Eastern Catholic? On what level is a RC allowed to participate in an Eastern Liturgy (I know this probably depends)?

Again, my sincere thanks. It now looks even more daunting

 

[ConstantineTG]

WOW! Thank you! Every one is a great help! And I thought the Roman Rite had a lot of liturgical books!!
One more thing to clarify: What is the difference between the Byzantine Rite and Eastern Catholic? On what level is a RC allowed to participate in an Eastern Liturgy (I know this probably depends)?

Again, my sincere thanks. It now looks even more daunting

As far as the Catholic Church is concerned, all non-Roman rite and Churches are collectively called the Eastern Catholic Churches. There are 5 Rites and 22 sui juris Churches in the Christian East. The Byzantine Rite is the largest, both in number of Churches and number of members. There’s 14 Eastern Churches that belong to the Byzantine Rite. The Wikipedia page gives a good breakdown of the Eastern Rites and Churches belonging to each Rite:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Catholic_Churches

 

[Cecilianus]

On what level is a RC allowed to participate in an Eastern Liturgy (I know this probably depends)?

Any Eastern Liturgy in communion with Rome is fully in communion with the rest of the Catholic Church, including the Roman Rite. So you would be able to participate 100% fully (even serving as an acolyte if you are familiar with the Liturgy, as I did long before my canonical transfer became complete). It fills your Sunday obligation, and you are encouraged to receive both the sacraments of Confession and the Eucharist.

If the Liturgy is not in communion with Rome, then you cannot receive any of the Sacraments. There is dispute among the members of this forum as to whether that fills the Sunday obligation for a Roman Catholic. My understanding is that it does, when you go “for educational purposes”. But it is certainly best to stay within the communion of the Catholic Church; schism is always a dangerous temptation.

 

[Aramis]

WOW! Thank you! Every one is a great help! And I thought the Roman Rite had a lot of liturgical books!!
One more thing to clarify: What is the difference between the Byzantine Rite and Eastern Catholic? On what level is a RC allowed to participate in an Eastern Liturgy (I know this probably depends)?

Again, my sincere thanks. It now looks even more daunting

14 of the 22 Churches Sui Iuris that are “Eastern Rite Churches in Union with Rome” are Byzantines. (Albanese Church, Greek Church, Italo-Albanese Church, Greek-Melkite Church, Belarussian Church, Bulgarian Church, Byzantine Church of the Križevci Eparchy, Hungarian Church, Macedonian Church, Romanian Church, Russian Church, Ruthenian Church, Slovak Church, Ukrainian Church)

3 of those churches are Antiochene Rite aka West Syrian Rite(Syrian Church, Syro-Malankar Church, Maronite Church)
2 of those churches are Chaldean Rite aka East Syrian Rite (Chaldean Church and Syro-Malabar Church)
1 of those churches is Armenian Rite. (Armenian Church)
2 of those churches are Alexandrian Rite (Coptic Church and Ethiopian Church)