1
1John_5_13
Guest
Let’s prayerfully see what God’s Holy Word say’s
11 Timothy 3:16
11 Timothy 3:16
Can Anyone Really Be 100% Sure They Will Go To Heaven When They Die?
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T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Um, I presume you meant 2 Timothy, chap. 3, v. 16, of the “All scripture is profitable”. . .
which means exactly what in relation to your post?
After all, “Not everyone who says, <Lord, Lord> will enter heaven, but those who do the will of the Father in Heaven”. . .
right?
which means exactly what in relation to your post?
After all, “Not everyone who says, <Lord, Lord> will enter heaven, but those who do the will of the Father in Heaven”. . .
right?
J
Joannes
Guest
Hello all:
No, we can’t be sure of our eventual salvation, not absolutely, because although we can be sure of God’s goodness and promises we can’t be sure that we will always remain His friends.
Consider these verses:
Salvation
Salvation is a process, not a discreet event.
Phillipians 2:12 “Wherefore my dearly beloved, as you have
always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence, with fear and trembling work out your salvation.”
Philippians 3:13-14 (RSV-CATHOLIC) “Brethren, I do not consider
that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward
the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.”
Salvation can be lost.
Matthew 5:13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt
lose it’s savor, wherewith shall it be salted? It is good for
nothing anymore but to be cast out, and to be trodden on by
men.”
Luke 12:45-46 “But if that servant shall say in his heart: My
Lord is long a coming; and shall begin to strike the menservants
and maidservants, and to eat and to drink and be drunk: The Lord
of that servant will come in the day that he hopeth not, and at
the hour that he knoweth not, and shall separate him, and shall
appoint him his portion with unbelievers.”
Salvation can be lost through apostasy.
Hebrews 6:4-6 “For it is impossible for those who were once
illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift, and were made
partakers of the Holy Ghost, have moreover tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, and are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God, and making him a mockery.”
Salvation can be lost through mortal sin.
Hebrews 10:26-27 “For if we sin willfully after having the
knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins,
but a certain dreadful expectation of judgement, and the rage of
a fire which shall consume the adversaries.”
(This help file was produced using the shareware version of helpMATIC V1.0 Copyright 1995 Catholic Software)
Let’s all meditate on these passages. I hope they will be helpful.
Regards,
Joannes
No, we can’t be sure of our eventual salvation, not absolutely, because although we can be sure of God’s goodness and promises we can’t be sure that we will always remain His friends.
Consider these verses:
Salvation
Salvation is a process, not a discreet event.
Phillipians 2:12 “Wherefore my dearly beloved, as you have
always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence, with fear and trembling work out your salvation.”
Philippians 3:13-14 (RSV-CATHOLIC) “Brethren, I do not consider
that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward
the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.”
Salvation can be lost.
Matthew 5:13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt
lose it’s savor, wherewith shall it be salted? It is good for
nothing anymore but to be cast out, and to be trodden on by
men.”
Luke 12:45-46 “But if that servant shall say in his heart: My
Lord is long a coming; and shall begin to strike the menservants
and maidservants, and to eat and to drink and be drunk: The Lord
of that servant will come in the day that he hopeth not, and at
the hour that he knoweth not, and shall separate him, and shall
appoint him his portion with unbelievers.”
Salvation can be lost through apostasy.
Hebrews 6:4-6 “For it is impossible for those who were once
illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift, and were made
partakers of the Holy Ghost, have moreover tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, and are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God, and making him a mockery.”
Salvation can be lost through mortal sin.
Hebrews 10:26-27 “For if we sin willfully after having the
knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins,
but a certain dreadful expectation of judgement, and the rage of
a fire which shall consume the adversaries.”
(This help file was produced using the shareware version of helpMATIC V1.0 Copyright 1995 Catholic Software)
Let’s all meditate on these passages. I hope they will be helpful.
Regards,
Joannes
1
1John_5_13
Guest
Thank You for your reply.
You asked what II Timothy 3:16 means in relation to my post.
In Acts 17: 10,11 Paul and Silas go to the synagogue. The Jews searched the Scriptures to see whether those things were so.
They didn’t take Paul and Silas word for it, that Jesus was the Christ, they went to the only authority, the Scriptures.
Can a person be 100% sure?
Who do we ask?
Who has the right answer?
It’s a matter of doctrine.
So we must go to the authority, and is profitable for doctrine…
You asked what II Timothy 3:16 means in relation to my post.
In Acts 17: 10,11 Paul and Silas go to the synagogue. The Jews searched the Scriptures to see whether those things were so.
They didn’t take Paul and Silas word for it, that Jesus was the Christ, they went to the only authority, the Scriptures.
Can a person be 100% sure?
Who do we ask?
Who has the right answer?
It’s a matter of doctrine.
So we must go to the authority, and is profitable for doctrine…
L
Lisa4Catholics
Guest
1John 5:13:
According to St. Paul oral Traditions are to be followed as well,so scripture backs up oral Traditions and authority.God Bless
T
Tmaque
Guest
1John 5:13:
No. No one knows for sure that God or Heaven even exist. We can have faith and believe but we won’t know until we get there.
1
1John_5_13
Guest
Reply to " no we can’t be sure not absolutely…"
II Timothy 3: 16
What does God’s Word say, read 1 John 5:13
Eternal Security? Read John 10:25-30
If work’s can save us, how can they keep us saved?
Phil. 2:12 say’s work out not work for
II Timothy 3: 16
What does God’s Word say, read 1 John 5:13
Eternal Security? Read John 10:25-30
If work’s can save us, how can they keep us saved?
Phil. 2:12 say’s work out not work for
L
Lisa4Catholics
Guest
1John 5:13:
I am sorry 1John 5:13 but Catholics do not believe works save us, you have been misinformed.Jesus saves us, grace saves us,when we reject Jesus and Grace we condemn ourselves.God Bless
A
awalt
Guest
Works are an indication of faith, the lack of good works is an indication faith is not there.
I thn this is what confuses people - good works do not save, as others here have said. Faith by God’s grace does. God works are an indication of a person’s faith.
BUT - we don’t judge. God does.
I thn this is what confuses people - good works do not save, as others here have said. Faith by God’s grace does. God works are an indication of a person’s faith.
BUT - we don’t judge. God does.
F
fellicia
Guest
Only God can be totally and utterly 100% sure
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
We can have a moral certainty, if we follow and obey Jesus, and if we die in the state of following and obeying Jesus (ie, not in a state of apostacy or mortal sin). We cannot have a prideful presumption,ie., “I can do whatever I want, I’m saved,” but I think we can have a humble confidence in Jesus and His Mercy, if we constantly seek after that Mercy and are constantly being created/re-created in His image. We cannot have an absolute certainty because, frankly, we cannot tell the future, or if we will continue to follow Him and confess Him. It seems to m that we have to walk a line between proud presumption and debilitating despair.
E
Exporter
Guest
When I read the original question I thought - this is not a question a Catholic would ask. So I looked at the profile and sure enough, this is what I saw. "Religion:
Fundamental Independent Baptist .
I expect that after a few more posts this poster, 1st john 5:13, will present the Baptist doctrines of “Are You Saved Brother”.
Fundamental Independent Baptist .
I expect that after a few more posts this poster, 1st john 5:13, will present the Baptist doctrines of “Are You Saved Brother”.
A
alyssa
Guest
1John 5:13,
Thank you for being concerned about your fellow Chrisitans! I would like to ask you to answer one thing, however-
What do you think we believe about salvation?
Many discussions are begun here on false premises- that the poster believes something about the Chruch which isn’t actually something Catholic’s believe. It would be helpful if you state where you are coming from, and what exactly you object to, or wish to have a discussion about
Thank you for being concerned about your fellow Chrisitans! I would like to ask you to answer one thing, however-
What do you think we believe about salvation?
Many discussions are begun here on false premises- that the poster believes something about the Chruch which isn’t actually something Catholic’s believe. It would be helpful if you state where you are coming from, and what exactly you object to, or wish to have a discussion about
G
geezerbob
Guest
1John 5:13:
You have asked us to read a part of Scripture. In one of the responses, you were referred to several other verses. Did you read them? If so, do you intend to respond?
You tell us that we misinterpret the Bible. By what authority is you interpretation more valid than ours?
Please answer two questions:
You have asked us to read a part of Scripture. In one of the responses, you were referred to several other verses. Did you read them? If so, do you intend to respond?
You tell us that we misinterpret the Bible. By what authority is you interpretation more valid than ours?
G
Gratias_Grace
Guest
1John 5:13:
Your reference to 2.Tim 3:16 give no sence without the Catholic Churchs authoroty. Sola Scriptura isn’t in the Bible.
As you know, but of course don’t agree with (yet) since you are not a catholic, Jesus wanted somebody to take care of things when he was going back to Heaven. The power was given to Peter and the Catholic Church.
This means that SCRIPTURA (inspired by God) were chosen by the Catholic Church.
You can learn more about that in this book:
Where We Got the Bible… Our Debt to the Catholic Church
by Henry G. Graham
And more in these books:
A Biblical Defense of Catholicism
by Dave Armstrong
More Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: Companion to a Biblical Defense of Catholicism
by Dave Armstrong, Scott Hahn
By What Authority?: An Evangelical Discovers Catholic Tradition
by Mark P. Shea
And of course there are many more books to read for those who want to know Thruth.
As Exporter points out to you; a catholic would never have asked such a question, 1John 5:13. A catholic is supposed to know that once saved doesn’t mean always saved! (and of course catholics are supposed to know that they can trust a MERCYFUL God if they try to live their life in a christian way)!
" … lean not on your own understanding; …" (Prov 3:5)
God bless!
G.Grace
Post # 3 by Joannes on this thread gives you a good explanation about that you (and all of us) can’t be 100 % sure that you (we ) will enter Heaven!
Your reference to 2.Tim 3:16 give no sence without the Catholic Churchs authoroty. Sola Scriptura isn’t in the Bible.
As you know, but of course don’t agree with (yet) since you are not a catholic, Jesus wanted somebody to take care of things when he was going back to Heaven. The power was given to Peter and the Catholic Church.
This means that SCRIPTURA (inspired by God) were chosen by the Catholic Church.
You can learn more about that in this book:
Where We Got the Bible… Our Debt to the Catholic Church
by Henry G. Graham
And more in these books:
A Biblical Defense of Catholicism
by Dave Armstrong
More Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: Companion to a Biblical Defense of Catholicism
by Dave Armstrong, Scott Hahn
By What Authority?: An Evangelical Discovers Catholic Tradition
by Mark P. Shea
And of course there are many more books to read for those who want to know Thruth.
As Exporter points out to you; a catholic would never have asked such a question, 1John 5:13. A catholic is supposed to know that once saved doesn’t mean always saved! (and of course catholics are supposed to know that they can trust a MERCYFUL God if they try to live their life in a christian way)!
" … lean not on your own understanding; …" (Prov 3:5)
God bless!
G.Grace
M
mark_a
Guest
1John 5:13:
I’m not even 100% sure there is a heaven, hell, or (gasp) purgatory.
S
serendipity
Guest
No, the only one who knows for sure what the outcome of any endeavor would be is God. That being siad, I think that Catholicism offers a better chance than any religion, that the person who embraces it will have the greatest potential to reach heaven.
What sin is and how gravely it offends God depends largely on our intention, and God alone knows if we are follwing his will to the best of our ability and if we always posses the most right intention, in spite of our weakness that may hinder our ability to make the best choices to implement his will on the planet (like chemical dependicies, mental and physical illnesses, cultural upbringing that influences our ability to interpret what is truly right, traumatic expriences in the past that may prejudice us towards certain actions, ect. the list can go on).
We are advised in the Bible to not even think about who goes to heaven or not (Rom 10:6 But the saving justice says this: do not think in your heart, whowill go to heaven - that is tobring Christ down; or who will go down to the depths - that is to bring Christ back from the dead). We are commanded to do are best to please God, because he deserves to be pleased in all of his forms (including as he is present in the least of his people); not because we fear punishment and aspire for heavenly rewards. Only God knows if we have done our best with our human limitations.
What sin is and how gravely it offends God depends largely on our intention, and God alone knows if we are follwing his will to the best of our ability and if we always posses the most right intention, in spite of our weakness that may hinder our ability to make the best choices to implement his will on the planet (like chemical dependicies, mental and physical illnesses, cultural upbringing that influences our ability to interpret what is truly right, traumatic expriences in the past that may prejudice us towards certain actions, ect. the list can go on).
We are advised in the Bible to not even think about who goes to heaven or not (Rom 10:6 But the saving justice says this: do not think in your heart, whowill go to heaven - that is tobring Christ down; or who will go down to the depths - that is to bring Christ back from the dead). We are commanded to do are best to please God, because he deserves to be pleased in all of his forms (including as he is present in the least of his people); not because we fear punishment and aspire for heavenly rewards. Only God knows if we have done our best with our human limitations.
P
Pug
Guest
1John 5:13:
The Bereans, OTOH, were receptive to Paul and his message. Many of them believed. I think that is more likely why they are “noble”. It seems a slightly more likely argument for listening to teachers or preachers (or the Chuch).
I think getting that the scripture is the “only authority” from the Berean passage is unlikely.
The Jews there in Berea seem to be upheld as better (noble) because they believed the message that Paul brought, not that they compared it to scripture. The guys Paul had just visited before them had heard all the stuff from scripture too (that seems to be Paul’s habit, to talk in the synagoge for some weeks about Jesus from scripture). Many of them did not believe and caused trouble.
The Bereans, OTOH, were receptive to Paul and his message. Many of them believed. I think that is more likely why they are “noble”. It seems a slightly more likely argument for listening to teachers or preachers (or the Chuch).
I think getting that the scripture is the “only authority” from the Berean passage is unlikely.
R
RobedWithLight
Guest
1John 5:13:
I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.
Even Paul himself isn’t so sure, since he still needs to drive his body and train it since one can still lose salvation if he fails to do so until the very end. One should therefore persevere until the last, in order to become worthy of salvation. 2 Timothy 2:12 also makes this clear:
IF we endure, we shall also reign with him.
Gerry
It would be more proper to say that we hope that we will be in heaven after we die. Even St. Paul says in 1Corinthians 9:27:
I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.
Even Paul himself isn’t so sure, since he still needs to drive his body and train it since one can still lose salvation if he fails to do so until the very end. One should therefore persevere until the last, in order to become worthy of salvation. 2 Timothy 2:12 also makes this clear:
IF we endure, we shall also reign with him.
Gerry
M
MaggieOH
Guest
1John 5:13:
“All Scripture is inspired by God and can be profitably used for **teaching, **for refuting error, for guiding people’s lives and **teaching them to be holy” (2Tim 3:16)
**What I am saying is that you are taking two quotes from Scripture out of their context and from this you expect to prove that Scripture is the only authority. What I am saying is that your quotes do nothing to prove your point.
I will start with the context of Paul’s letter to Timothy:
Prior to the verse that you have plucked out, Paul wrote the following to Timothy:
“You know though, what I have taught, how I have lived, what I have aimed at; you know my faith, my patience and my love; my constancy… while these wicked imposters will go from bad to worse, deceiving others and deceived themselves.” (2 Tim 3:10-13)
Interesting…
What is this about imposters and deception? Could that have something to do with the later comment do you think?
but wait there is more:
“You must keep to what you have been taught and know to be true; remember who your teachers were, and how, ever since a child, you have known the holy Scriptures - from these you can learn the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.” (2 Tim 3:14-15)
… Did Paul mention that Timothy had been taught by teachers? That means that someone had to interpret what is written…
Now let us examine the context of Acts 17. First we will set the scene. Paul had been in Thessalonika and had encountered difficulties with the Jews who were so full of resentment that they ran him out of town. Then they sailed to Beroea and found the Jews to be more open-minded:
“Here the Jews were more open-minded than those in Thessalonika, and they welcomed the word more readily; every day they studied the Scriptures to check whether it was true.” (Acts 17: 11)
Now here is the tricky part. Why did the Bereans examine the Scripture? What precisely were they checking? Since they were in the Diaspora, what manuscripts did they use? Were they in Greek or Hebrew?
Well, what they were checking were the manuscripts of the prophets sayings. They were checking out Isaiah, Jeremiah, Zachariah, Ezekiel and all the other references that pointed to the coming of the Messiah. They were not doing this because Scripture was their sole authority, but because they wanted to see the words of the prophets for themselves so that they could compare and contrast what was being taught to them.
Here is yet another example of oral teaching, that is the words of the Apostles were also considered as authority to the Bereans.
Maggie
I submit that it is an error to use the word doctrine and that your translation is rather limited. The quote from the letter to Timothy states:
“All Scripture is inspired by God and can be profitably used for **teaching, **for refuting error, for guiding people’s lives and **teaching them to be holy” (2Tim 3:16)
**What I am saying is that you are taking two quotes from Scripture out of their context and from this you expect to prove that Scripture is the only authority. What I am saying is that your quotes do nothing to prove your point.
I will start with the context of Paul’s letter to Timothy:
Prior to the verse that you have plucked out, Paul wrote the following to Timothy:
“You know though, what I have taught, how I have lived, what I have aimed at; you know my faith, my patience and my love; my constancy… while these wicked imposters will go from bad to worse, deceiving others and deceived themselves.” (2 Tim 3:10-13)
Interesting…
What is this about imposters and deception? Could that have something to do with the later comment do you think?but wait there is more:
“You must keep to what you have been taught and know to be true; remember who your teachers were, and how, ever since a child, you have known the holy Scriptures - from these you can learn the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.” (2 Tim 3:14-15)
… Did Paul mention that Timothy had been taught by teachers? That means that someone had to interpret what is written… Now let us examine the context of Acts 17. First we will set the scene. Paul had been in Thessalonika and had encountered difficulties with the Jews who were so full of resentment that they ran him out of town. Then they sailed to Beroea and found the Jews to be more open-minded:
“Here the Jews were more open-minded than those in Thessalonika, and they welcomed the word more readily; every day they studied the Scriptures to check whether it was true.” (Acts 17: 11)
Now here is the tricky part. Why did the Bereans examine the Scripture? What precisely were they checking? Since they were in the Diaspora, what manuscripts did they use? Were they in Greek or Hebrew?Well, what they were checking were the manuscripts of the prophets sayings. They were checking out Isaiah, Jeremiah, Zachariah, Ezekiel and all the other references that pointed to the coming of the Messiah. They were not doing this because Scripture was their sole authority, but because they wanted to see the words of the prophets for themselves so that they could compare and contrast what was being taught to them.
Here is yet another example of oral teaching, that is the words of the Apostles were also considered as authority to the Bereans.
Maggie
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