Can anyone start a church, and call it the church founded by Jesus Christ?

[joe370]

Hey schaick…

How is any one called? By the Holy Spirit.

The holy spirit did not entrust you or me with the authority to teach and settle disputes when they arise - correct?

It is Christ’s Church, yes IF the called person is preaching the Word of GOD, the Gospel as we know it with nothing extra added.

OK…My sister belongs to one church and I belong to a different church and we are taught different things and believe different things, and we preach the word of God as we know it, and what we preach regarding the Eucharist, for example, is NOT the same. When my niece who belongs to a different church than both me and my sister, wants to know the truth regarding the Eucharist, who can she trust is telling her the truth and why can she trust who ever she ends up believing? Is it her church, my sisters church or my church? By simply saying: It is Christ’s Church, does not help at all, for there are so many different churches out there in the world today preaching the word of God, and often, said preaching of non-Catholic churches conflicts with the preaching of other non-Catholic churches, all of which defer to the bible as the Christians final authority via private interpretation, as opposed to any one church leadership.

It is a mistake to think that the unviversal Church that Jesus built exists only in the Catholic Church.

I didn’t say that, and the CCC doesn’t either. I am simply saying that Jesus only founded one church circa AD 33 and the rest of the churches were founded by mere man, and I can prove it too. Give the name of the non-Catholic church (other than the EOC) - and I will give you the name of the man who founded said church and when and where, and it won’t be Jesus and it won’t be the 1st century and it won’t be Jerusalem.

Christians have been given the authority to test the prophets, we know how to check for the fruits of the Spirit, but there are always some people that will follow blindly.

Are they lazy? Lack the education? Why do people follow cults?

Even within the heirarchy of any church denomination-Catholic Church included there are clergy that SHOULD NOT be preaching. The “authority” in any given denomination does not neccesarily stop a jerk from preaching.

Schaick, you and I were not entrusted with the authority (by Jesus) - to settle doctrinal disputes when they arise - right? You believe that Jesus entrusted us with the infallible bible to settle disputes - right? Well as you can see, the bible, which is the infallible word of God, is not settling our differences regarding certain doctrines, so what next???

 

[Sufjon]

A genuine question for my non-Catholic friends, with absolutely zero flippancy intended: Can anyone (like myself for example) - start a church, just as so many have done for the last 500 years, and call his or her new church the church founded by Jesus Christ?

Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality, but in every nation any one who fears Him and does what is right is acceptable to Him.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[joe370]

Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality, but in every nation any one who fears Him and does what is right is acceptable to Him.

Your friend
Sufjon

I agree brother but you did not answer the question:

A genuine question for my non-Catholic friends, with absolutely zero flippancy intended: Can anyone (like myself for example) - start a church, just as so many have done for the last 500 years, and call his or her new church the church founded by Jesus Christ?

 

[Sufjon]

I agree brother but you did not answer the question:

A genuine question for my non-Catholic friends, with absolutely zero flippancy intended: Can anyone (like myself for example) - start a church, just as so many have done for the last 500 years, and call his or her new church the church founded by Jesus Christ?

Hi Friend Joe370: I think it means that God shows no partiality, and that the requirement is to love (fear) God and to do what is right, and this will be acceptable to God, regardless of ones stripes or affiliation. That is what the founder of the Church said. I can say that I agree with him.

I can’t say that I know what he had in mind as to what a church would be. Should it be a temple or a place or worship with a congregation? If such a thing is your path, then it is your path to God and the way you should go. I am full of respect for that. Personally I think it meant that you should build a church in your heart. Just a temple in the heart. In it, there should be room for Catholics Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Jainists, Buddhists or whoever comes your way. I respect anyone’s church, whether it was founded 2 thousand years ago like yours, 4 thousand years ago like mine, or this afternoon as I’m sure happens everyday. All of them are nonetheless an expression of our love of God. I think your church is quite beautiful by the way. Perhaps we should just be content with what we have.

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[pablope]

I agree brother but you did not answer the question:

A genuine question for my non-Catholic friends, with absolutely zero flippancy intended: Can anyone (like myself for example) - start a church, just as so many have done for the last 500 years, and call his or her new church the church founded by Jesus Christ?

Hi, Joe,

I finally found the blog I read this before.

What is missing here in the discussion is the humility and respect of St Paul to submit himself to authority and approval to St Peter and the other Apostles, an evidenced (in Acts and Galatian) of his conferring with them and getting their approval of what he was teaching.

St Paul, as everyone who knows his story, had a direct revelation from Christ. He could have gone on his own to establish his own church. But he did not. He submitted to authority and respected it.

And I think this is what makes the RCC unique-it’s humility and respect for authority-compared with our other brethen.

Quoting the article directly:

1. On Paul’s submission to authority – We can see therefore, that Paul was not a lone ranger. He did submit what he taught to Peter and later to others apostles and leaders (Acts 11 & 15). He states that to have preached something other than what the Church proposed would be to run “in vain” (Gal 2:2). Here was a man who was formed by the community of the Church and who submitted his teachings to scrutiny by lawful authority. Here was man who went forth on his missions **only after he was ordained and sent. **Further, Paul and Barnabas, as they went through the towns and villages on their missionary journeys, also established authority in each church community they founded by appointing presbyters in each town (Acts 14:23). Upon completion of their first missionary journey they reported back to the leaders at Antioch who had sent them (Acts 14:27) and later to the apostles in Jerusalem (Acts 15). Hence we have an accountability structure in the early Church and a line of authority. Paul was no. He both respected authority and established authority in the churches he established. He also makes it clear to the Galatians and others that he has authority and that he expects them to respect it.

Here is the whole article: blog.adw.org/2010/10/what-st-paul-can-teach-us-about-respect-for-church-authority/

 

[schaick]

*We agree that all the Christian communities in apostolic time, and for hundreds of centuries for that matter, formed a united Church, there were no such corporate bodies as denominations. *

That does not take into the account those that did not agree over the hundreds of years with the hierarchy of the Catholic Church but kept silent for fear of death. Today there are still many Catholics that don’t agree on everything Catholic.

“Those, therefore, who desert the preaching of the Church call in question the knowledge of the holy presbyters (elders or priests). It behooves us, therefore, to avoid their doctrines, and to take careful heed lest we suffer any injury from them; but to flee to the Church, and be brought up in her bosom, and be nourished with the Lord’s Scriptures.”
St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5:20 (A.D. 180)

What if there are teachings not compatible with the Lord’s Scripture? People leaving because a false Gospel is bering taught? Are they no longer members of Jesus’ Church
?

Luke 10
16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

We can hear the Apostles, Disciples, Paul loud and clear through Scripture.

The members of Christ’s body, which is the Church, gathered in their different communities united in one unadulterated faith. So naturally there weren’t any denominations existing at the time that would distinguish the one universal Church as one denomination from among others with its own peculiar sets of doctrines.

Yes the Catrholic Church today has doctrines and dogmas that did not exist in the early Church.

 

[schaick]

Her missionary activity doesn’t necessarily make her a member of the visible one universal Church, although I am sure she has done much good in our Lord’s name, just as much as my evangelical endeavours in the world doesn’t automatically make me an ordained minister of the Church. I am a layperson, a member of the common priesthood of believers. Neither your cousin nor I are followers of Jesus as either members of the one Church he had founded on the apostles or in the same sense as the ordained clergy of the Church are.

Her missionary activity doesn’t necessarily make her a member of the visible one universal Church,

Correct but the fact that she taught Scripture, the Gospel sraight from the Bible no doctrine does.

The following addresses exactly what happened then happens today:

1 Corinthians 3
4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?
5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task.
…
11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ
…
21 So then, no more boasting about human leaders! All things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.

1 Corinthians 4
6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other. 7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?

 

[schaick]

Hey schaick…
OK…My sister belongs to one church and I belong to a different church and we are taught different things and believe different things, and we preach the word of God as we know it, and what we preach regarding the Eucharist, for example, is NOT the same. When my niece who belongs to a different church than both me and my sister, wants to know the truth regarding the Eucharist, who can she trust is telling her the truth and why can she trust who ever she ends up believing? Is it her church, my sisters church or my church? By simply saying: It is Christ’s Church, does not help at all, for there are so many different churches out there in the world today preaching the word of God, and often, said preaching of non-Catholic churches conflicts with the preaching of other non-Catholic churches, all of which defer to the bible as the Christians final authority via private interpretation, as opposed to any one church leadership.

Which one of you is attending the Church teaching the false Gospel?

I didn’t say that, and the CCC doesn’t either. I am simply saying that Jesus only founded one church circa AD 33 and the rest of the churches were founded by mere man, and I can prove it too. Give the name of the non-Catholic church (other than the EOC) - and I will give you the name of the man who founded said church and when and where, and it won’t be Jesus and it won’t be the 1st century and it won’t be Jerusalem.

As a member of the people called out - the Church - you are the pillar and foundation of truth. It is our personal responsibility to not follow a group not preaching the truth.

It is the local Church that this was written to and a charge that given by Paul.
01 Timothy 3:
15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

Matthew 7
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

**Galatians 5 **
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

Isaiah 8
20 Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.

 

[schaick]

Hi Friend Joe370: I think it means that God shows no partiality, and that the requirement is to love (fear) God and to do what is right, and this will be acceptable to God, regardless of ones stripes or affiliation. That is what the founder of the Church said. I can say that I agree with him.

I can’t say that I know what he had in mind as to what a church would be. Should it be a temple or a place or worship with a congregation? If such a thing is your path, then it is your path to God and the way you should go. I am full of respect for that. Personally I think it meant that you should build a church in your heart. Just a temple in the heart. In it, there should be room for Catholics Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Jainists, Buddhists or whoever comes your way. I respect anyone’s church, whether it was founded 2 thousand years ago like yours, 4 thousand years ago like mine, or this afternoon as I’m sure happens everyday. All of them are nonetheless an expression of our love of God. I think your church is quite beautiful by the way. Perhaps we should just be content with what we have.

Your friend,
Sufjon

The Church meant in the Holy Bible is not a physical Church, but an assembly of believers.

Look at the insight you have when you say, you should build a church in your heart:

1 Peter 2
5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

If you would like to read the whole chapter:
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20PETER%202&version=NIV

You will see that on this site there are translations in many languages if English is not your native tongue.

 

[The_Old_Medic]

Of course anyone can start a church. Whether or not you (or anyone else) would be committing a sin by doing so would depend on several factors. But, at least in the US, Canada and some other countries, anyone can found a church, and man7y, many people have done exactly that. That’s one of the reasons why there are so many single churches around.

 

[wmscott]

No it was not a real Christian church to begin with. Methodist, Pentecostal, Baptist churches IMO are real Christian churches along with the CC.
I’m talking about the extreme churches like the Branch Dividan, not a real Christian church.

I do have a question, and I do not mean to disrespect you or your church as I know that you are a Christian and love God. I want to use you as an example since you are a Pastor, but I am not making the claim that this is a true fact, just a hypothetical. Let’s say that you set up Church and bring in a flock, you teach from the Bible about matters of faith and morals. However on a point or two you are teaching heresy, that being your opinion or doctrine at variance with the orthodox or accepted doctrine of a church or religious system, plus the maintaining of such an opinion or doctrine based on how you interpret the Bible. The subject matter is not really important just the fact that a heresy is being taught. Where is the oversight and to what authority do you defer too and matters of faith and morals? Peace

 

[lax16]

Hi, Joe,

I finally found the blog I read this before.

What is missing here in the discussion is the humility and respect of St Paul to submit himself to authority and approval to St Peter and the other Apostles, an evidenced (in Acts and Galatian) of his conferring with them and getting their approval of what he was teaching.

St Paul, as everyone who knows his story, had a direct revelation from Christ. He could have gone on his own to establish his own church. But he did not. He submitted to authority and respected it.

And I think this is what makes the RCC unique-it’s humility and respect for authority-compared with our other brethen.

Quoting the article directly:

1. On Paul’s submission to authority – We can see therefore, that Paul was not a lone ranger. He did submit what he taught to Peter and later to others apostles and leaders (Acts 11 & 15). He states that to have preached something other than what the Church proposed would be to run “in vain” (Gal 2:2). Here was a man who was formed by the community of the Church and who submitted his teachings to scrutiny by lawful authority. Here was man who went forth on his missions **only after he was ordained and sent. **Further, Paul and Barnabas, as they went through the towns and villages on their missionary journeys, also established authority in each church community they founded by appointing presbyters in each town (Acts 14:23). Upon completion of their first missionary journey they reported back to the leaders at Antioch who had sent them (Acts 14:27) and later to the apostles in Jerusalem (Acts 15). Hence we have an accountability structure in the early Church and a line of authority. Paul was no. He both respected authority and established authority in the churches he established. He also makes it clear to the Galatians and others that he has authority and that he expects them to respect it.

Here is the whole article: blog.adw.org/2010/10/what-st-paul-can-teach-us-about-respect-for-church-authority/

Awesome post!

I have often wondered if anyone sees the lack of obedience and humility in the leader/founder of their church? I think Luther for sure lacked in these areas - even if many of his ideas were right!

 

[Sufjon]

The Church meant in the Holy Bible is not a physical Church, but an assembly of believers.

Look at the insight you have when you say, you should build a church in your heart:

1 Peter 2
5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

If you would like to read the whole chapter:
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20PETER%202&version=NIV

You will see that on this site there are translations in many languages if English is not your native tongue.

Thanks schaick: I will be sure to read it as soon as I get home.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Mikeoffaith]

A genuine question for my non-Catholic friends, with absolutely zero flippancy intended: Can anyone (like myself for example) - start a church, just as so many have done for the last 500 years, and call his or her new church the church founded by Jesus Christ?

Wow Joe, that was a good question! What did Leo IX have to say when he did it? What is it with Bishops of Rome named Leo? Do they always feel the need to break away from the one true path of Christ and just keep rending His Church into pieces? Do they have no respect for the One True Church? Do they have so little respect for Christ and the Apostles?

 

[joe370]

Wow Joe, that was a good question! What did Leo IX have to say when he did it? What is it with Bishops of Rome named Leo? Do they always feel the need to break away from the one true path of Christ and just keep rending His Church into pieces? Do they have no respect for the One True Church? Do they have so little respect for Christ and the Apostles?

Okay, I’ll bite, but you did not answer my question. You believe that Leo IX broke away from the one True Church? Help me find that one true church Mike since you don’t believe it is the CC?

 

[schaick]

Okay, I’ll bite, but you did not answer my question. You believe that Leo IX broke away from the one True Church? Help me find that one true church Mike since you don’t believe it is the CC?

I do. Did Pope Leo have the fruits of the Holy Spirit? Did anyone in the Catholic Church at the time express the fruits of the Holy Spirit?

Was Leo X he teaching the true Gospel?

I think it is hard for Catholics to get their heads around the fact that the Church Jesus built does not need to be contained in one Church denomination/body.

The Catholic branch of Jesus’ Church brings politics into play that has no place in Jesus’ Church.

 

[elvisman]

I do. Did Pope Leo have the fruits of the Holy Spirit? Did anyone in the Catholic Church at the time express the fruits of the Holy Spirit?

Was Leo X he teaching the true Gospel?

I think it is hard for Catholics to get their heads around the fact that the Church Jesus built does not need to be contained in one Church denomination/body.

The Catholic branch of Jesus’ Church brings politics into play that has no place in Jesus’ Church.

**First of all - the Catholic Church isn’t a “branch” of christ’s church - it IS Christ’s Church. He only established ONE Church and prayed fervently that it remain ONE as he and the Father are ONE (John 17:20-23).
**I think it is very difficult for many Protestants to get their heads around the this fact.

**Secondly - “denominations” are schisms from Christ’s Church - or schisms of schisms of schisms . . .
If you belong to a denomination you are outside Christ’s Church - outside the Body of Christ - even though you are related to it. This includes every Christian sect that claims to be “non-denominational”.

The Catholic Church, being the only Church established by Christ cannot be a mere denomination because it is the monolith from which all of the others are divorced.

Hope that helps.

 

[vsedriver]

No it was not a real Christian church to begin with. Methodist, Pentecostal, Baptist churches IMO are real Christian churches along with the CC.
I’m talking about the extreme churches like the Branch Dividan, not a real Christian church.

I’m not following this well. If I go by your definition that a ‘real’ Christian Church lasts and a false Christian Church fades away how do you insure that you are in a ‘real’ Christian Church? Don’t you think the Jim Jones people believed they were in a real Christian Church?

Can you define “real Christian Church”?

I’ll stick to the Church with Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and Sacred Apostolic Authority. It’s a lot less confusing.

Linda in Ohio

 

[vsedriver]

Yes the Catrholic Church today has doctrines and dogmas that did not exist in the early Church.*

Are you saying the Catholic Church lacked the authority to develop doctrines and dogmas? Or are you saying the Catholic Church lacked the authority to interpret Sacred Scripture which brought about the acceptance of dogmas and doctrines?

Linda in Ohio

 

[Good_Fella]

*We agree that all the Christian communities in apostolic time, and for hundreds of centuries for that matter, formed a united Church, there were no such corporate bodies as denominations. *

That does not take into the account those that did not agree over the hundreds of years with the hierarchy of the Catholic Church but kept silent for fear of death. Today there are still many Catholics that don’t agree on everything Catholic.

Positive heretics such as Arius, Nestorius, and Luther didn’t remain silent. Nor were they put to death for being outspoken. What people are you exactly referring to?

True. There are many people leaving the Catholic Church, but just because they fail to agree with her teachings in matters on either faith or morals (mostly the latter), that doesn’t necessarily mean the Church is defectible in her doctrines. On the contrary, the one universal Church historically founded by our Lord Jesus Christ is indefectible. Jesus assured his elect disciples that he would be with his Church always until the end of time (Mt 20:28). Our Lord’s presence guarantees that the Universal Magisterium of the Catholic Church cannot err in its official teachings on faith and morals. :nope:

“But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you in all truth.”
John 16, 13

The Catholic Church was born on the first Pentecost Sunday of our liturgical calendar.

“Those, therefore, who desert the preaching of the Church call in question the knowledge of the holy presbyters (elders or priests). It behooves us, therefore, to avoid their doctrines… and be brought up in her bosom, and be nourished with the Lord’s Scriptures.”
St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5:20 (A.D. 180)

What if there are teachings not compatible with the Lord’s Scripture? People leaving because a false Gospel is bering taught?

There were teachings incompatible with Scripture and the Apostolic Tradition of the Church circulating in the 2nd century. Irenaeus had to contend with numerous heretical sects that had emerged and taught a false gospel. The Valentinians, Marcosians, Saturinians, Ebionites, and other various gnostic sects perverted the Scriptures. The Catholic Church certainly couldn’t have, since the Church is the final authority on matters of faith and morals - not Scripture! Heresies arise through the private unauthoritative interpretation of Scripture by individuals who presume such authority lies with them, not with the episcopacy of the Church, and who break from the ecclesiastic traditions of the Church and the orthodox faith. The Protestant Reformers were of the same mentality as those heretics whom Irenaeus had challenged.

“The manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church.”
Ephesians 3, 10

Luke 10:16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

We can hear the Apostles, Disciples, Paul loud and clear through Scripture.

And we can hear those who validly succeeded them, the college of bishops in union with the pope, echoing the Apostles while speaking with the same infallible authority in their teachings on faith and morals.

Remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you.
Hebrews 13, 7, 17

The members of Christ’s body, which is the Church, gathered in their different communities united in one unadulterated faith. So naturally there weren’t any denominations existing at the time… with its own peculiar sets of doctrines.

the Catrholic Church today has doctrines and dogmas that did not exist in the early Church.

Would that include the dogma of the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist by transubstantiation?

“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ.”
St. Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c.A.D. 110)

Or of our Blessed Mother’s freedom from all stain of sin?

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.”
St. Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370)

PAX :heaven: