Can anyone start a church, and call it the church founded by Jesus Christ?

[Todd520]

First of all - the Catholic Church isn’t a “branch” of christ’s church - it IS Christ’s Church. He only established ONE Church and prayed fervently that it remain ONE as he and the Father are ONE (John 17:20-23).
I think it is very difficult for many Protestants to get their heads around the this fact.

Secondly - “denominations” are schisms from Christ’s Church - or schisms of schisms of schisms . . .

Elvis, why did you completely ignore the question?
Here it is again for your

Originally Posted by schaick
I do. Did Pope Leo have the fruits of the Holy Spirit? Did anyone in the Catholic Church at the time express the fruits of the Holy Spirit?

Was Leo X he teaching the true Gospel?

 

[jphilapy]

No it was not a real Christian church to begin with. Methodist, Pentecostal, Baptist churches IMO are real Christian churches along with the CC.
I’m talking about the extreme churches like the Branch Dividan, not a real Christian church.

So doesn’t that qualify the catholic church as a real Christian church? It has been around for 2000 years.

Jeff

 

[jphilapy]

the Church Jesus built does not need to be contained in one Church denomination/body.

So Jesus has many bodies? Can you show me that one in scripture? I really thought scripture taught that there is only ONE TRUTH and ONE BODY.

Jeff

 

[elvisman]

Elvis, why did you completely ignore the question?
Here it is again for your

Because the question is so ludicrously broad, anybody using any sort of intellect would reject it. Schaick asked iF ANYONE in the Catholic Church at the time express the fruits of the Holy Spirit. He is asserting that not one person in the entire Church expressed the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

---

Whether or not Leo or any other Pope became corrupt doesn’t matter one, single bit to the Holy Spirit. Jesus GUARANTEED that his Church – His Body – would not succumb to the powers of evil (Matt. 16:18) – and it hasn’t.

---

**All through the OT – God used flawed human beings to work his will. He did it with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David and a slew of others. In the end – HIS will was accomplished – not theirs.

---

If you’re looking for a perfect Body – please show me because I’ve never met a perfect human being. Have YOU?

 

[elvisman]

The bottom line is this, my Protestant friends: There is only ONE Church – ONE Body of Christ – not thousands.

---

**In John 14:6 Jesus said, “I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” In Acts 9:4-5, he equates the Church with his very self. It is of paramount importance to point out that the Church (in 1 Tim. 3:15) is also called “the pillar and foundation of truth” – since it is the Body of Christ. Likewise, it is essential that we acknowledge the fact that the Scriptures refer to the Church as the truth - not the Scriptures themselves.

---

Since, by the false doctrine of Sola Scriptura, the varying Protestant denominations declare the Bible alone to be the Word of God and our sole authority, we need to compare that with what the Bible really has to say about these things. How can every denomination have the “truth” when they have conflicting opinions about what that truth is?

---

The confusion that was caused by the Reformation continues to reverberate to this day. The tens of thousands of Protestant “denominations” continue to splinter day after day, year after year. The abandonment of the doctrines and precepts of God have given way to the doctrines and precepts of mere men (Matthew 15:8-9, Mark 7:6-7):

---

Some Protestant denominations believe in baptismal regeneration, while others do not.
Some believe in soul-sleep, while others do not.
Some believe in the total depravity of man, while others do not.
Some believe in the Holy Trinity, while others do not.
Some believe in doctrine of “once saved, always saved”, while others do not.
Some believe in a pre-tribulation “Rapture”, while others do not.
Some believe that only those who were predestined will make it to heaven, while others do not.
**Some believe that some were predestined for hell, *while others do not. ***
Some believe in a woman’s right to choose abortion, while others do not.
Some believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin, while others do not.
Most believe in contraception, while others do not – and the list goes on.

---

Which** Protestant denomination has the truth? They can’t all be right . . .

 

[joe370]

Hey Mike and Schaick…

I do. Did Pope Leo have the fruits of the Holy Spirit? Did anyone in the Catholic Church at the time express the fruits of the Holy Spirit?

Was Leo X he teaching the true Gospel?

You said:

Did anyone in the Catholic Church at the time express the fruits of the Holy Spirit?

Absolutely. I think perhaps you were merely being facetious.

There were bad people in the CC in every century, starting with Judas; this proves nothing.

Instead of answering my question you come back with the following:

I think it is hard for Catholics to get their heads around the fact that the Church Jesus built does not need to be contained in one Church denomination/body.

Jesus said in Matthew 16: I will build my churches - right or wrong???

You said:

The Catholic branch of Jesus’ Church brings politics into play that has no place in Jesus’ Church?

I don’t want to belong to a “branch” of Jesus’ church; I want to belong to the historical church founded by Jesus.

One more time if you don’t mind: You believe that Leo IX, in the 11th century, broke away from the one True Church founded by Jesus? Okay…Help me find that one true church, (as opposed to the protestant and catholic branches) - that existed in the first century and continues to exist today? In other words, when I walk out my door and drive by the CC to which I belong, where should I go to find the one true church founded by Jesus?

 

[Todd520]

** met a perfect human being. Have YOU**?

Nope, there are no perfect people out there, and some church leaders have more faults than others.

I personally don’t have the history to comment on where Pope Leo X sat in the spectrum or whether the Holy Ghost was with him.

 

[Good_Fella]

The bottom line is this, my Protestant friends: There is only ONE Church – ONE Body of Christ – not thousands.

---

In John 14:6 Jesus said, “*I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” *In Acts 9:4-5, he equates the Church with his very self. It is of paramount importance to point out that the Church (in 1 Tim. 3:15) is also called “the pillar and foundation of truth” – since it is the Body of Christ. Likewise, it is essential that we acknowledge the fact that the Scriptures refer to the Church as the truth - not the Scriptures themselves.

---

**Since, by the false **doctrine of Sola Scriptura, the varying Protestant denominations declare the Bible alone to be the Word of God and our sole authority, we need to compare that with what the Bible really has to say about these things. How can every denomination have the “truth” when they have conflicting opinions about what that truth is?

---

The confusion that was caused by the Reformation continues to reverberate to this day. The tens of thousands of Protestant “denominations” continue to splinter day after day, year after year. The abandonment of the doctrines and precepts of God have given way to the doctrines and precepts of mere men (Matthew 15:8-9, Mark 7:6-7):

---

Some Protestant denominations believe in baptismal regeneration, while others do not.
Some believe in soul-sleep, while others do not.
Some believe in the total depravity of man, while others do not.
Some believe in the Holy Trinity, while others do not.
Some believe in doctrine of “once saved, always saved”, while others do not.
Some believe in a pre-tribulation “Rapture”, while others do not.
Some believe that only those who were predestined will make it to heaven, while others do not.
Some believe that some were predestined for hell, *while others do not. *
Some believe in a woman’s right to choose abortion, while others do not.
Some believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin, while others do not.
Most believe in contraception, while others do not – and the list goes on.

---

Which** Protestant denomination has the truth? They can’t *all ***be right . . .

Excellent!

 

[joe370]

Hey Elvis, that is a good point and one of the reasons why I came home to Rome. On issues from infant baptism to charismatic gifts, sadly, there are almost as many opinions as there are churches in the protestant sphere. The holy spirit (spirit of truth) - cannot possibly be responsible for all of these conflicting truths. For 1500 years the phrase “one, holy, catholic, and apostolic,” - which is recited by Protestants, was understood differently than how it is understood today. For 1500 years it referred to one very visible and universal church, but today is refers to one very invisible and universal church comprised of many divided denominations, with supposedly no way to identify the very visible church founded by Jesus circa AD 33.

The bottom line is this, my Protestant friends: There is only ONE Church – ONE Body of Christ – not thousands.

---

In John 14:6 Jesus said, “*I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” *In Acts 9:4-5, he equates the Church with his very self. It is of paramount importance to point out that the Church (in 1 Tim. 3:15) is also called “the pillar and foundation of truth” – since it is the Body of Christ. Likewise, it is essential that we acknowledge the fact that the Scriptures refer to the Church as the truth - not the Scriptures themselves.

---

**Since, by the false **doctrine of Sola Scriptura, the varying Protestant denominations declare the Bible alone to be the Word of God and our sole authority, we need to compare that with what the Bible really has to say about these things. How can every denomination have the “truth” when they have conflicting opinions about what that truth is?

---

The confusion that was caused by the Reformation continues to reverberate to this day. The tens of thousands of Protestant “denominations” continue to splinter day after day, year after year. The abandonment of the doctrines and precepts of God have given way to the doctrines and precepts of mere men (Matthew 15:8-9, Mark 7:6-7):

---

Some Protestant denominations believe in baptismal regeneration, while others do not.
Some believe in soul-sleep, while others do not.
Some believe in the total depravity of man, while others do not.
Some believe in the Holy Trinity, while others do not.
Some believe in doctrine of “once saved, always saved”, while others do not.
Some believe in a pre-tribulation “Rapture”, while others do not.
Some believe that only those who were predestined will make it to heaven, while others do not.
Some believe that some were predestined for hell, *while others do not. *
Some believe in a woman’s right to choose abortion, while others do not.
Some believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin, while others do not.
Most believe in contraception, while others do not – and the list goes on.

---

Which** Protestant denomination has the truth? They can’t *all ***be right . . .

 

[joe370]

Elvis, an adjunct to your post, regarding the Mystical Body of Christ: When Paul says that we become one body because we partake of the one loaf (1 Cor 10:17) - he is teaching that the Church is in fact the body of Christ because the Church receives the real body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist (1 Cor 10:16).” What makes us the Mystical Body of Christ is in fact the Eucharist, and that was a major appeal to me as a former non-Catholic and since the CC is the only church founded by Jesus Christ, as opposed to a mere human, logically speaking, that is where the Eucharist can be found.

The bottom line is this, my Protestant friends: There is only ONE Church – ONE Body of Christ – not thousands.

---

In John 14:6 Jesus said, “*I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” *In Acts 9:4-5, he equates the Church with his very self. It is of paramount importance to point out that the Church (in 1 Tim. 3:15) is also called “the pillar and foundation of truth” – since it is the Body of Christ. Likewise, it is essential that we acknowledge the fact that the Scriptures refer to the Church as the truth - not the Scriptures themselves.

---

**Since, by the false **doctrine of Sola Scriptura, the varying Protestant denominations declare the Bible alone to be the Word of God and our sole authority, we need to compare that with what the Bible really has to say about these things. How can every denomination have the “truth” when they have conflicting opinions about what that truth is?

---

The confusion that was caused by the Reformation continues to reverberate to this day. The tens of thousands of Protestant “denominations” continue to splinter day after day, year after year. The abandonment of the doctrines and precepts of God have given way to the doctrines and precepts of mere men (Matthew 15:8-9, Mark 7:6-7):

---

Some Protestant denominations believe in baptismal regeneration, while others do not.
Some believe in soul-sleep, while others do not.
Some believe in the total depravity of man, while others do not.
Some believe in the Holy Trinity, while others do not.
Some believe in doctrine of “once saved, always saved”, while others do not.
Some believe in a pre-tribulation “Rapture”, while others do not.
Some believe that only those who were predestined will make it to heaven, while others do not.
Some believe that some were predestined for hell, *while others do not. *
Some believe in a woman’s right to choose abortion, while others do not.
Some believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin, while others do not.
Most believe in contraception, while others do not – and the list goes on.

---

Which** Protestant denomination has the truth? They can’t *all ***be right . . .

 

[elvisman]

Nope, there are no perfect people out there, and some church leaders have more faults than others.

I personally don’t have the history to comment on where Pope Leo X sat in the spectrum or whether the Holy Ghost was with him.

Nor do you have the ability to read a person’s heart or soul and who dwells within that soul.

 

[elvisman]

Elvis, an adjunct to your post, regarding the Mystical Body of Christ: When Paul says that we become one body because we partake of the one loaf (1 Cor 10:17) - he is teaching that the Church is in fact the body of Christ because the Church receives the real body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist (1 Cor 10:16).” What makes us the Mystical Body of Christ is in fact the Eucharist, and that was a major appeal to me as a former non-Catholic and since the CC is the only church founded by Jesus Christ, as opposed to a mere human, logically speaking, that is where the Eucharist can be found.

I couldn’t agree more.

 

[Todd520]

Nor do you have the ability to read a person’s heart or soul and who dwells within that soul.

And have I ever indicated otherwise?

Question though - do you feel you can infer something about their soul based on the fruits of their actions?

 

[elvisman]

And have I ever indicated otherwise?

Question though - do you feel you can infer something about their soul based on the fruits of their actions?

I didn’t say you implied that - but you were defending another poster who WAS implying just that.

As for your question - we are told by Jesus that we will know people by their fruits (Matt. 7:16). What we cannot know is what is in their hearts. We can judge their actions but never their hearts. Only God can judge if somebody has had a true change of heart.

 

[Good_Fella]

Her missionary activity doesn’t necessarily make her a member of the visible one universal Church,

Correct but the fact that she taught Scripture, the Gospel sraight from the Bible no doctrine does.
The early Church Father Origen, in one of his letters (A.D. 235), refers to the existence of private individuals who hold “false opinions” and make “ignorant assertions” about matters on faith by failing to understand the Scriptures on account of a feeble spiritual sense and a tendency to interpret them purely in a literal sense apart from the Apostolic Tradition of the Catholic Church and her teaching authority. Church doctrines have never been formed by initially gleaning the Scriptures and taking it from there. They originate from the sacred traditional beliefs of the Church as handed down from the Apostles and guided by the Holy Spirit. The New Testament itself is an inspired written work that acknowledges the sacred traditions of the Church and present them in literary form (cf.Lk 1:1-4). Thus Origen further asserts in his letter (First Principles, 4, 1:9) that the Scriptures can be properly interpreted as a means of doctrinal affirmation only by the episcopate of the Catholic Church which has legitimately succeeded the Apostles as guardians of the true faith.

Scripture is materially sufficient, but formally insufficient. There is much contained in the written word that is difficult for private individuals to grasp on their own initiative because of what remains to be implicitly revealed and unexplained. When Irenaeus invited those who had succumbed to the false teachings of the gnostic sects to be “nourished in the Lord’s Scriptures”, he wasn’t advocating sola Scriptura, as many Protestant apologists mistakenly maintain, but rather affirming that Scripture must be interpreted in light of Apostolic Tradition, from whence it has its source by the agency of the Holy Spirit, who inspired the authors of the sacred texts to write what they did for the benefit of future generations of a globally expanding church. The gnostics erred because they spurned the ecclesiastic traditions and the apostolic teaching authority of the Church, substituting these two pillars of truth for the Bible alone by rejecting them altogether and essentially putting their trust in themselves: the phenomenom of the competent soul, which has reappeared most starkly in contemporary Christian Fundamentalism. Put a loaded pistol in the hands of the wrong person, expect nothing but trouble if he misuses the firearm.

Like the gnostics of the 2nd century, Fundamentalists believe that they alone have been granted full access to the truth of our Lord’s word, that they’re connected with Jesus on an exclusive wavelength of the highest frequency and possess privileged information, having become a Church unto themselves, who are the ultimate authority in interpreting the Scriptures according to what they believe they have intuitively perceived through the infallible operation of the Holy Spirit after reading the Holy Book. Such circular reasoning is a mark of subjectivism, which has always plagued Protestantism since the Reformation as the source of its perpetual splintering. Martin Luther himself bemoaned this trend which he realized he started, for he actually believed what he doctrinally proposed, in accordance with his personal interpretation of the Scriptures, was true Christian dogma for the start of a new age in the Catholic Church and a reshaping of her traditional beliefs. Once he was excommunicated, it was his wish that every Catholic - clergy and laity alike - would follow him and accept his teachings under one umbrella. To preserve Christian untity we must, in the words of Origen, “cling to the standard of the heavenly Church of Jesus Christ according to the succesion of the Apostles.”

And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you, speaking of these things in his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures. Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability. But grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 3, 15, 18

“But beyond these (scriptural) sayings, let us look at the very tradition, teaching and faith of the Catholic Church from the beginning, which the Lord gave, the Apostles preached, and the Fathers kept,”*
St, Athanasius, Four Letters to Serapion of Thmuis, 1:28 (A.D. 360)*

PAX :harp:

 

[schaick]

Are you saying the Catholic Church lacked the authority to develop doctrines and dogmas? Or are you saying the Catholic Church lacked the authority to interpret Sacred Scripture which brought about the acceptance of dogmas and doctrines?

Linda in Ohio

The Catholic Church has no authority to add requirements for our salvation to those already mentioned in the Gospel message.

If a Catholic wants or needs to believe that Mary was immaculately conceived, assumed or is co-redeemer, the Pope is infallible in order to have a close relationship with GOD so be it, but those things were never mentioned in the Gospel message as needed for our salvation.

 

[schaick]

Sorry reply to post 57-
Having computer issues.

LOL!! The post is confusing - 2 posts from 2 different people have been joined under my name.

I said:
That does not take into the account those that did not agree over the hundreds of years with the hierarchy of the Catholic Church but kept silent for fear of death. Today there are still many Catholics that don’t agree on everything Catholic.

So, actually I was speaking of those that did remain silent and do remain silent today. The person sitting next to you in the pew that doesn’t believe, know or agree with all the things outside Scripture that the Catholic Church teaches.

Real Presence is Scriptural.

Basically It comes down to the Catholic Church thinking they are the only members of Jesus’ Church.

 

[schaick]

So Jesus has many bodies? Can you show me that one in scripture? I really thought scripture taught that there is only ONE TRUTH and ONE BODY.

Jeff

LOL!! It does.

What Catholics see as a multitude of different beliefs among trinitarian Christians is one faith with multiple applications. We all hold the same basic tenets of faith.

There is but one body of Christ.

If it was all contained in one denomination, dead and living-what is so mystical about that?

There is one interpretation of Scripture, but multiple applications

 

[elvisman]

The Catholic Church has no authority to add requirements for our salvation to those already mentioned in the Gospel message.

If a Catholic wants or needs to believe that Mary was immaculately conceived, assumed or is co-redeemer, the Pope is infallible in order to have a close relationship with GOD so be it, but those things were never mentioned in the Gospel message as needed for our salvation.

Actually, the Catholic Church – having been established by Christ himself (Matt. 16:16-19) and given ALL authority in heaven and on earth (Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 20:21-23) – certainly DOES have the authority to declare what is needed for salvation. Remember that it was the Catholic Church who wrote down the Gospel message, guided by the Holy Spirit (John 16:12-15).

---

Tell me – what do YOU deem necessary for salvation, based on the Gospel message?

 

[elvisman]

LOL!! It does.

What Catholics see as a multitude of different beliefs among trinitarian Christians is one faith with multiple applications. We all hold the same basic tenets of faith.

There is but one body of Christ.

If it was all contained in one denomination, dead and living-what is so mystical about that?

There is one interpretation of Scripture, but multiple applications

PLEASE show me that in Scripture.
And don’t show me Matt. 12:30 and Luke 11:23. The people spoken of here were doing things the SAME way Jesus taught the Apostles - and not in a variety of different ways.