Can anyone start a church, and call it the church founded by Jesus Christ?

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**Obviously hitting a nerve here - only reason I see for you being so rude. **

elvisman -said*Get your story straight, Schaick. The Church never allowed the sale of indulgences. That was carried out by individuals who were acting on their own with no mandate from the Church

In fact, the Council of Trent issued some severe reforms regarding the practice of granting indulgences. Because of previous abuses by some individuals, “in 1567 Pope Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions” (Catholic Encyclopedia). This illustrated the Church’s
seriousness about stopping abuses from indulgences. *

There are 2 sides to every story and the Catholic Church has white washed their part-Yes exactly why the Council of Trent had to reform some issues - abuses.

Does the Pope have the authority to speak for the Catholic Church?

Who other then the Pope speaks for the Catholic Church?


Did Leo stop the selling of indulgences? No. He placed a gag order on the Agustine Order of monks.

Other then Luther did anyone in the Catholic Church try to stop the selling of indulgences? Why not?

Did Leo ever denounce the burning of heretics?
Hit a nerve? Do not flatter yourself, it is not good for the soul. Nothing you say or will continue to say is a revelation. The RCC has heard your type for centuries and in the end,no one will care an iota of what you had to say.

Got anything else redundant to repeat?
 
Originally Posted by schaick
Prove Clement had authority from GOD- you can’t.
Christians don’t reject the Disciples, Paul, the Apostles or their authority. We have GODS Word saying HE gave them authority.
What can not be proven is authority was passed down or that it was given to any spercific branch of Jesus’ Church
And prove all authority from God ceased with the Apostles? You can’t!
 
**Obviously hitting a nerve here - only reason I see for you being so rude. **

elvisman -said*Get your story straight, Schaick. The Church never allowed the sale of indulgences. That was carried out by individuals who were acting on their own with no mandate from the Church

Does the Pope have the authority to speak for the Catholic Church?*

Who other then the Pope speaks for the Catholic Church?

Did Leo stop the selling of indulgences? No. He placed a gag order on the Agustine Order of monks.

Other then Luther did anyone in the Catholic Church try to stop the selling of indulgences? Why not?

Did Leo ever denounce the burning of heretics?

It is said in the Bible…“He who is without fault, cast the first stone?” Have you lately asked, am I not guilty of the same thing I am accusing?

I have read your posts about church history, but sorry for saying it, but they all sound biased, and not based on an objective reading or knowledge of history… (Please correct me if I am wrong)…and there is a refusal to even entertain a counter viewpoint…and it seems they are a somewhat of the wild accusations against the CC of Albert Rivera.
 
Upset? Listen to your tone? The accept the fact? Once you show me the overwhelming historical sources confirming the church Christ founded is and was called Orthodox? If you believe the RCC is a schismatic church,then I guess that goes against whatyou are ranting and raving about because last time I checked history Lutherans popped-up well over 1500 years later. So what does that make the Lutheran church?

BTW: Why aren’t you Orthodox since you accept the FACT they are the only ones that have remained faithful?

Please explain your mind-boggling contradictions?
I’m merely stating facts. But we can follow this line. If the Roman church is schismatic than what does that make the Lutheran Church? At it’s very foundation it would be schismatic, but then what would you make of the the Lutheran Church? Schismatic or not?

Oh and can you show me where Christ founded a church that was called the Roman Catholic Church? it seems in my scripture the Church in Rome was an after thought to the Resurrection not a precursor.
 
I’m merely stating facts. But we can follow this line. If the Roman church is schismatic than what does that make the Lutheran Church? At it’s very foundation it would be schismatic, but then what would you make of the the Lutheran Church? Schismatic or not?

Oh and can you show me where Christ founded a church that was called the Roman Catholic Church? it seems in my scripture the Church in Rome was an after thought to the Resurrection not a precursor.
I’ll go even further than that, Mike.
**Can you show me a Church that is officially called, “The Roman Catholic Church”? I can’t. **

That is not an official title of the Church in ANY of its documents. It is called “The Catholic Church” - just as it was called in the First Century.**

Do your homework before making such attacks on Christ’s only established Church.
 
I’m merely stating facts. But we can follow this line. If the Roman church is schismatic than what does that make the Lutheran Church? At it’s very foundation it would be schismatic, but then what would you make of the the Lutheran Church? Schismatic or not?
    • The hypothesis of the Church of Rome being schismatic is false.
    • We know who and when the Lutherans were started. They broke from the Church of Rome in the 16th century. Dissent and diviision, a move Paul condemned, as well as those who divide and stay divided won’t inherit heaven. [Rm 16:17…] & [Gal 5:19…]
    m:
    Oh and can you show me where Christ founded a church that was called the Roman Catholic Church?
    The Church is called the Catholic Church.
    • It happens to be headquartered in Rome the see of Peter.
    • “Roman” as a qualifier, came as a polemic from the Anglicans in the 16th century after THEIR revolt from the Catholic Church. Here’s the history oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Roman_Catholic
    • The Church Jesus builds is where Peter is…BY DEFINITION…:cool:
    m:
    it seems in my scripture the Church in Rome was an after thought to the Resurrection not a precursor.
    After thought?

    AFTER the Resurrection and before the Ascension, Jesus assembled His apostles around Him.[Jn 21:14…] Jesus voided NOTHING He established. In fact He made His command even stronger. In front of ALL the apostles, Jesus singles out Peter again. Speaking in the singular, NOT plural, Jesus commands Peter to feed and (poimaino) rule His Church. Not just part of it. ALL of it. And Peter went to Rome. That’s why Rome is the chair of Peter, and all of Peter’s successors after him are the bishop of Rome…

    To answer the question of the thread? No. As Paul said, those who divide don’t serve Our Lord, but their own selfish appetites. He said this to the Church of Rome [Rm 16:17…] IOW, there is no “church” in Protestantism regardless of name or founder.
 
I’m merely stating facts. But we can follow this line. If the Roman church is schismatic than what does that make the Lutheran Church? At it’s very foundation it would be schismatic, but then what would you make of the the Lutheran Church? Schismatic or not?

Oh and can you show me where Christ founded a church that was called the Roman Catholic Church? it seems in my scripture the Church in Rome was an after thought to the Resurrection not a precursor.
Stating facts and presenting are two entire different things. As I asked you before,then show us all the overwhelming facts the church Christ founded was called Orthodox? You state it is a fact,then it should be an ease presenting what I have asked from you?

Christ did not found a church called Roman,because Roman is a specific rite within the Catholic Church. Christ founded ONE universal (Catholic) church for ALL and for ALL generations,not thousands of denominations.

Time to lay off all of the anti-Roman Catholic spam Mike and do some homework.
 
Schaick, we all seem to be drifting away from the OP. Schaick, can anyone start a church, just as so many have done, and call his or her new church the church founded by Jesus Christ?
For example, could I start a church and call my church the reformed church of Christ, and claim that my church founded in 2010 is the church founded by Jesus Christ?
Prove Clement had authority from GOD- you can’t.

Christians don’t reject the Disciples, Paul, the Apostles or their authority. We have GODS Word saying HE gave them authority.

What can not be proven is authority was passed down or that it was given to any spercific branch of Jesus’ Church.
 
I’ll go even further than that, Mike.
Can you show me a Church that is officially called, “The Roman Catholic Church”? I can’t.

That is not an official title of the Church in ANY of its documents. It is called “The Catholic Church” -* just* as it was called in the First Century.

Do your homework before making such attacks on Christ’s only established Church.
Yes, you do like to think of yourselves as that. Well whatever you want to call yourselves, I think those of us not in communion with the Bishop of Rome will stick with the Roman Catholic Church.
 
    • The hypothesis of the Church of Rome being schismatic is false.
    • We know who and when the Lutherans were started. They broke from the Church of Rome in the 16th century. Dissent and diviision, a move Paul condemned, as well as those who divide and stay divided won’t inherit heaven. [Rm 16:17…] & [Gal 5:19…]
    The Church is called the Catholic Church.
    • It happens to be headquartered in Rome the see of Peter.
    • “Roman” as a qualifier, came as a polemic from the Anglicans in the 16th century after THEIR revolt from the Catholic Church. Here’s the history oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Roman_Catholic
    • The Church Jesus builds is where Peter is…BY DEFINITION…:cool:
    After thought?

    AFTER the Resurrection and before the Ascension, Jesus assembled His apostles around Him.[Jn 21:14…] Jesus voided NOTHING He established. In fact He made His command even stronger. In front of ALL the apostles, Jesus singles out Peter again. Speaking in the singular, NOT plural, Jesus commands Peter to feed and (poimaino) rule His Church. Not just part of it. ALL of it. And Peter went to Rome. That’s why Rome is the chair of Peter, and all of Peter’s successors after him are the bishop of Rome…

    To answer the question of the thread? No. As Paul said, those who divide don’t serve Our Lord, but their own selfish appetites. He said this to the Church of Rome [Rm 16:17…] IOW, there is no “church” in Protestantism regardless of name or founder.

  1. Church of Rome was schismatic before Luther ever came into the picture. At least I think the final straw in that basket was 1054.

    Didn’t Peter go to Antioch first and wasn’t he their first bishop? Feed, yes, guide, yes, rule, no. Even in the early church Peter could never be considered a ruler, a leader yes. Even the Orthodox will admit this.

    Yes and those who divide don’t serve Our Lord, but their own selfish appetites. It always seems Rome is doing the dividing.
 
Stating facts and presenting are two entire different things. As I asked you before,then show us all the overwhelming facts the church Christ founded was called Orthodox? You state it is a fact,then it should be an ease presenting what I have asked from you?

Christ did not found a church called Roman,because Roman is a specific rite within the Catholic Church. Christ founded ONE universal (Catholic) church for ALL and for ALL generations,not thousands of denominations.

Time to lay off all of the anti-Roman Catholic spam Mike and do some homework.
Here is the thing Nicea, that you as well as most seem to miss on the point. There is always a perspective involved. Rome has one perspective, Constantinople another, and so on and so on.

So if you want to hold to the perspective the Church lead by the Bishop of Rome is the be all end all, that’s perfectly fine, but then you need to accept the fact that there is a different perspective out there that is going to conflict with your view.

I will certainly agree with you and anyone on this site that Christ found one universal church for all time and all places. But if you are going to insist that this church is only realized in the Church headed by the Bishop of Rome and only that church, then we are going to disagree.

I believe that the Orthodox church is more at the heart of how the church was meant to be especially in light of early church history. I will also state as a fact that it was Rome who pulled away. We do have a split that has lasted nearly 1000 years and from my perspective, I don’t see it as Constantinople that created it.

And please don’t tell me that I am being anti-Roman Catholic when in the previous thread I was just told that there is no such thing as the Roman Catholic Church.
 
Church of Rome was schismatic before Luther ever came into the picture. At least I think the final straw in that basket was 1054.
Peter can’t divide against himself. Everyone has to be in union with Peter. THAT’s what Our Lord commanded.
s:
Didn’t Peter go to Antioch first and wasn’t he their first bishop?
He didn’t stay there. He went to Rome.

Ever see the ranking of the sees? EVEN after Constantine moved the capital of the empire to Byzantium which was renamed Constantinople, the ranking still goes like this

  1. *]Rome
    *]Constantinople
    *]Alexandria
    *]Antioch
    *]Jerusalem

    Rome has ALWAYS been considered the chair of Peter. That’s why it is first.
    s:
    Feed, yes, guide, yes, rule, no. Even in the early church Peter could never be considered a ruler, a leader yes. Even the Orthodox will admit this.
    ποιμαίνω poimainō [Jn 21:16]

    1) to feed, to tend a flock, keep sheep
    a) to rule, govern
    1) of rulers
    2) to furnish pasture for food
    3) to nourish
    4) to cherish one’s body, to serve the body
    5) to supply the requisites for the soul’s need

    ἡγέομαι hēgeomai [Lk 22:26]

    1) to lead
    a) to go before
    b) to be a leader
    1) to rule, command
    2) to have authority over
    3) a prince, of regal power, governor, viceroy, chief, leading as respects influence, controlling in counsel, overseers or leaders of the churches
    4) used of any kind of leader, chief, commander
    5) the leader in speech, chief, spokesman

    In both scripture cases, Jesus is speaking directly to Peter ALONE in front of ALL the apostles.
    s:
    Yes and those who divide don’t serve Our Lord, but their own selfish appetites. It always seems Rome is doing the dividing.
    Peter doesn’t divide from himself. Scripture condemns division FROM Peter.
 
Mike, you said:

Yes and those who divide don’t serve Our Lord, but their own selfish appetites. It always seems Rome is doing the dividing.

I am confused. The CC in communion with the Bishop of Rome is guilty of dividing Jesus’ church? :confused: I see nothing but division in protestantism, yet you don’t seem to mind it, or target anyone in the protestant sphere for the blame; just Rome, or maybe I overlooked it.

Mike, we all seem to be drifting away from the OP. Mike, can anyone start a church, just as so many have done, and call his or her new church the church founded by Jesus Christ?

For example, could I start a church and call my church the reformed church of Christ, and claim that my church founded in 2010 is the church founded by Jesus Christ?
 
Mike, you said:

Yes and those who divide don’t serve Our Lord, but their own selfish appetites. It always seems Rome is doing the dividing.

I am confused. The CC in communion with the Bishop of Rome is guilty of dividing Jesus’ church? :confused: I see nothing but division in protestantism, yet you don’t seem to mind it, or target anyone in the protestant sphere for the blame; just Rome, or maybe I overlooked it.

Mike, we all seem to be drifting away from the OP. Mike, can anyone start a church, just as so many have done, and call his or her new church the church founded by Jesus Christ?

For example, could I start a church and call my church the reformed church of Christ, and claim that my church founded in 2010 is the church founded by Jesus Christ?
Of course you can start your own church and call it the Reformed Church of Christ (a word of advice, remember in the US don’t forget to incorporate and file as 501c3 Non-profit) And of course you can make that claim that your church founded in 2010 was founded by Christ himself! Why would you think you couldn’t make that claim? You can claim to be the Ecumenical Patriarch of the entire Christian World. Now, what people follow and believe is a completely different story or what you may truly believe yourself may be completely different than what you are claiming, but the fact that you can make the claim is always a possibility.

But let’s be honest, Joe, what exactly is the intention of most of the threads you start?
I am confused. The CC in communion with the Bishop of Rome is guilty of dividing Jesus’ church? :confused: I see nothing but division in protestantism, yet you don’t seem to mind it, or target anyone in the protestant sphere for the blame; just Rome, or maybe I overlooked it.
I think you may be confused. Yes the the Church in Communion with the Bishop of Rome is guilty of dividing Jesus’ Church. We have lived with a split for 1,000 years, an entire millennium, why has this not been healed? Why are we still even dealing with this? Why did it take 910 years to reverse the excommunications on each other? This is the point where you can say, “But, it’s their fault too!” And I will agree whole heartedly. However, if the Roman Church wants to claim that it has the full measure of the Truth, then why hasn’t it done more or been the leader to heal the wounds of Christ until the last 46 years? Why for 900 plus years was it only about pushing away, never about reconciliation.

Of course Joe, I look at the Reformation and what became of it and I think to myself what have we done? And in we, I am not referring to just protestants, but to the entire church. Of course Wittenburg was just as much to blame as Rome. I as a Lutheran can look back on Church history and see the faults as I perceive them(I’m willing to bet that JonNC would probably share those same perceptions as well).

The fact remains, that the Body of Christ will remain broken as long as the discussion always starts out, I’m right and you’re wrong. As any one in a marriage can attest, these arguments are never winnable even if you are right. We can start every discussion this same way, for every reason you put out that you are right, I can come at you with why you are wrong, and for every reason I put out that I am right you can come out and point to something and say I’m wrong. And we will get nowhere and 500 more years down the road, we will be in the exact same spot.

So to circle back to your original question, of course anyone can start a church, just as so many have and claim it as founded by Christ. However, I think the more important question to ask is anyone willing to heal the church founded by Christ, just as so many haven’t?
 
Just an oberservation, but the Church started by Jesus was called the church of God, not the Catholic Church, if you accept the fact that Inspired writings say that in Acts and also in 1 Corinthians, and if you can accept that the Body of Christ was originally known as Christians, not Catholics, in that the followers of Christ were first called Christians at Antioch (Acts) and Peter says that we have been given the name Christian and should be proud to have that name (1 Peter). That’s not my opinion, that’s what the Bible says and I assume by the writings that being called a Christian was the tradition at the time. Now I know that the term “Catholic” is a greek term meaning Universal and the first known use of the term was in the second cencentury in a letter from St. Ignatius I believe, but I can’t imagine why it would gain popularity over the name of Christian. If understand correctly, Constantine had a lot to do with bringing a bunch of church leaders together, who held some differing ideas, and got them to agree on consolidating their doctrines and gospel letters and putting together a Bible. About six hundred years later, the Eastern and Western branches split because of a power struggle, then of about five hundred years later the Western branch experienced the Reformation when some of the Christians during that time had some problems with what they saw as corruption of the church leadership. Now if I have correct but limited knowledge of church history, and if the Body of Christ are the believers in Christ, and if the Holy Spirit is present in some of the churched of the separated brethren as Vatican II says, then I do believe that someone can start a real church founded on Jesus Christ.
 
Yes, you do like to think of yourselves as that. Well whatever you want to call yourselves, I think those of us not in communion with the Bishop of Rome will stick with the Roman Catholic Church.
You can claim that all day long but you’ll STILL be wrong. You are choosing to go with the misnomer than the real name. 🤷
 
Prove Clement had authority from GOD- you can’t.
This saying is trustworthy: whoever aspires to the office of bishop (episcopoi) desires a noble task.
1Timothy 3, 1

Clement, Bishop of Rome (A.D. 91-98), understood very well what the apostle Paul meant by the use of the word “office”, that the bishopric would continue on after his death by his successors. It’s an historical fact that Clement can trace his episcopal authority back to Peter. He was not a private individual who established his own church or “branch”, nor a successor of a common man who had no apostolic authority invested by Christ to establish an independent Christian church in His name. There is only one true universal Church founded by Christ on Peter and the Apostles, who are the foundation or starting point (Eph 2:20) with our Lord as the cornerstone: the Catholic Church. Paul himself regarded his ministerial calling a divine office (Col 1:25). If the divine authority to preach the gospel and administer the sacraments of the Church terminated with his death or that of Timothy, who was appointed to the episcopacy by Paul through the formal laying on of hands, then neither of their positions could rightfully be called an office. You don’t think that the office of the President of the United States ended with the death of George Washington, do you?
Christians don’t reject the Disciples, Paul, the Apostles or their authority. We have GODS Word saying HE gave them authority.
We have God’s word saying He gave them the same authority Christ had to appoint and commission their valid successors in the epicopoi and presbyteroi as guardians of the one true faith. These particular men would by allusion include Timothy, Titus, Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp of Smyrna, Irenaeus of Lyons, Clement of Alexandria, Cyril of Jerusalem, (etc.).

But the one who gives us security with you in Christ and anointed us is God; he has also put his seal upon us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a first installment.
*2 Corinthians 1: 21-22 *

No ordinary person can start a church and claim it was established by Christ simply by forming a community of believers and appealing to the Bible. For the one true Church has the Apostles as its foundation, and no private individual like Luther or Calvin can claim having a legitimate authority to preach the gospel to begin with, a divine office that can be directly traced back to the Twelve through the formal rite of ordination. (Luther was excommunicated.) Not even Nestorious, the excommunicated Bishop of Constantinople, had the authority to form his own church in Christ’s name based on his heretical beliefs and teachings. Only those bishops whose teachings are in union with the Catholic Church can trace their authority back to the Apostles. There is no Church founded by Christ where this apostolic teaching authority is absent.
What can not be proven is authority was passed down or that it was given to any spercific branch of Jesus’ Church.
Obviously you know very little about the Church in the New Testament and the early Church. There definitely weren’t any “specific branches” at these times and there still aren’t. The idea of an invisible Church emanating conflicting essential doctrines pertaining to our salvation is a Protestant myth - a rationalization.

"All the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and Bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna. For every word that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished."
Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2 (A.D. 155)

PAX :harp:
 
This saying is trustworthy: whoever aspires to the office of bishop (episcopoi) desires a noble task.
1Timothy 3, 1

Clement, Bishop of Rome (A.D. 91-98), understood very well what the apostle Paul meant by the use of the word “office”, that the bishopric would continue on after his death by his successors. It’s an historical fact that Clement can trace his episcopal authority back to Peter. He was not a private individual who established his own church or “branch”, nor a successor of a common man who had no apostolic authority invested by Christ to establish an independent Christian church in His name. There is only one true universal Church founded by Christ on Peter and the Apostles, who are the foundation or starting point (Eph 2:20) with our Lord as the cornerstone: the Catholic Church. Paul himself regarded his ministerial calling a divine office (Col 1:25). If the divine authority to preach the gospel and administer the sacraments of the Church terminated with his death or that of Timothy, who was appointed to the episcopacy by Paul through the formal laying on of hands, then neither of their positions could rightfully be called an office. You don’t think that the office of the President of the United States ended with the death of George Washington, do you?

We have God’s word saying He gave them the same authority Christ had to appoint and commission their valid successors in the epicopoi and presbyteroi as guardians of the one true faith. These particular men would by allusion include Timothy, Titus, Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp of Smyrna, Irenaeus of Lyons, Clement of Alexandria, Cyril of Jerusalem, (etc.).

But the one who gives us security with you in Christ and anointed us is God; he has also put his seal upon us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a first installment.
*2 Corinthians 1: 21-22 *

No ordinary person can start a church and claim it was established by Christ simply by forming a community of believers and appealing to the Bible. For the one true Church has the Apostles as its foundation, and no private individual like Luther or Calvin can claim having a legitimate authority to preach the gospel to begin with, a divine office that can be directly traced back to the Twelve through the formal rite of ordination. (Luther was excommunicated.) Not even Nestorious, the excommunicated Bishop of Constantinople, had the authority to form his own church in Christ’s name based on his heretical beliefs and teachings. Only those bishops whose teachings are in union with the Catholic Church can trace their authority back to the Apostles. There is no Church founded by Christ where this apostolic teaching authority is absent.

Obviously you know very little about the Church in the New Testament and the early Church. There definitely weren’t any “specific branches” at these times and there still aren’t. The idea of an invisible Church emanating conflicting essential doctrines pertaining to our salvation is a Protestant myth - a rationalization.

"All the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and Bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna. For every word that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished."
Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2 (A.D. 155)

PAX :harp:
Great post. 👍
 
Schaick, we all seem to be drifting away from the OP. Schaick, can anyone start a church, just as so many have done, and call his or her new church the church founded by Jesus Christ?
For example, could I start a church and call my church the reformed church of Christ, and claim that my church founded in 2010 is the church founded by Jesus Christ?
Yes if you preached the Gospel of Jesus.
 
It is said in the Bible…“He who is without fault, cast the first stone?” Have you lately asked, am I not guilty of the same thing I am accusing?

I have read your posts about church history, but sorry for saying it, but they all sound biased, and not based on an objective reading or knowledge of history… (Please correct me if I am wrong)…and there is a refusal to even entertain a counter viewpoint…and it seems they are a somewhat of the wild accusations against the CC of Albert Rivera.
Why not simply answer my questions-set me straight, instead of the accusations of me of being biased- Do you not know the answers to my questions?

**Does the Pope have the authority to speak for the Catholic Church?

Who other then the Pope speaks for the Catholic Church?

Did Leo stop the selling of indulgences?

Other then Luther did anyone in the Catholic Church try to stop the selling of indulgences? Why not?

Did Leo ever denounce the burning of heretics? **
 
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