Can atheists be holy without sanctifying grace? (Merged)

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porthos11 said:
Nobody can be good without God. Not even Christians, much less atheists.
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Not true. There is a difference between “good” and “holy”. Atheists can be good without being holy. Catholics receive the gift of sanctifying grace which confers holiness however like a flower it needs to be watered and fed and nurtured otherwise it withers and dies.
 
SAVINGRACE said:
Not true. There is a difference between “good” and “holy”. Atheists can be good without being holy. Catholics receive the gift of sanctifying grace which confers holiness however like a flower it needs to be watered and fed and nurtured otherwise it withers and dies.
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I am good. I donate to Patreon podcasts that I support. I am looking for a charity to give to. I go out of my way to help others when I can.
 
TheAdvocate said:
Say an atheist or agnostic doesn’t believe in God but does good works–in fact lots of them. On the one hand, we say that one cannot earn his salvation through works, and the only way to become holy is through sanctifying grace. But, that is only achievable by by faith through baptism.

Ergo, a non-believer cannot be holy no matter how many great works he does.

On the other hand, you have a baptized Christian, who does far fewer good deeds, and yet he is technically holier than the non-believer.

So here’s the problem: I have a hard time believing that a person who is a non-believer can do lots of wonderful deeds for others, but we can’t technically consider him holy, but the Christian would be holier just because he is baptized but is not doing nearly as much for his fellow man.
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Sanctifying grace comes through baptism

One needs sanctifying grace in their soul to be holy.

mortal sin robs the soul of sanctifying grace. ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=mortal+sin&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

without sanctifying grace, one is not holy

Reconciliation is achieved by 1493
 
SAVINGRACE said:
Not true. There is a difference between “good” and “holy”. Atheists can be good without being holy. Catholics receive the gift of sanctifying grace which confers holiness however like a flower it needs to be watered and fed and nurtured otherwise it withers and dies.
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No one is good, at least on his own.

If these “good” atheists have even the smallest bit of venial sin, they are not good. Ditto for Catholics, except that sanctifying grace is the justice and mercy of God. We are washed and made pure in sanctifying grace. It’s not our own righteousness God sees, but that of his Son. That’s what baptism does.

Atheists and the unbaptized do not have this gift. Therefore, even the smallest sin makes them “not good.” Even for Catholics this is true. If sanctifying grace is lost by mortal sin, one cannot merit anything. We become “not good” and cannot enter heaven. No matter what kind of good deeds or acts of “charity” Catholics in mortal sin perform, they merit nothing. Such Catholics are not “good people” until they are reconciled to God in Confession.

These things you do are good deeds. They do not, however, make you a good person. Only God’s grace does that.

And this is not my opinion. Christ himself confirms this: There is none good but God alone.
 
porthos11 said:
No one is good, at least on his own.

If these “good” atheists have even the smallest bit of venial sin, they are not good. Ditto for Catholics, except that sanctifying grace is the justice and mercy of God. We are washed and made pure in sanctifying grace. It’s not our own righteousness God sees, but that of his Son. That’s what baptism does.

Atheists and the unbaptized do not have this gift. Therefore, even the smallest sin makes them “not good.” Even for Catholics this is true. If sanctifying grace is lost by mortal sin, one cannot merit anything. We become “not good” and cannot enter heaven. No matter what kind of good deeds or acts of “charity” Catholics in mortal sin perform, they merit nothing. Such Catholics are not “good people” until they are reconciled to God in Confession.

These things you do are good deeds. They do not, however, make you a good person. Only God’s grace does that.

And this is not my opinion. Christ himself confirms this: There is none good but God alone.
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I guess Hitler was “good” because he was baptized catholic, receiving gods grace.
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
I guess Hitler was “good” because he was baptized catholic, receiving gods grace.
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You again. And with your favourite topic, Hitler.

Hitler lost the state of grace long ago. When he was baptized, he was good. He stopped being that when he committed his first mortal sin from which did not repented. The rest is history.

Stop caricaturing the Faith.

And with you here, I’m gone.
 
porthos11 said:
You again. And with your favourite topic, Hitler.

Hitler lost the state of grace long ago. When he was baptized, he was good. He stopped being that when he committed his first mortal sin from which did not repented. The rest is history.

Stop caricaturing the Faith.

And with you here, I’m gone.
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Simply used your own arguement. Those were your words, not mine.
 
TheTrinitySaves said:
Simply used your own arguement. Those were your words, not mine.
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I know how you “argue.” You think you’re so smart, when you don’t have a solid grasp of logic. Even one who properly reads my posts will see that I said nothing of what you’re implying. You spin other people’s words, which is dishonest.

I’m not going to engage you further. Ever. Again with you here, I’m gone.
 
porthos11 said:
I know how you “argue.” You think you’re so smart, when you don’t have a solid grasp of logic. I’m not going to engage you further. Again with you here, I’m gone.
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Only a boy walks away my friend. Are you a man?
 
porthos11 said:
No one is good, at least on his own.

If these “good” atheists have even the smallest bit of venial sin, they are not good. Ditto for Catholics, except that sanctifying grace is the justice and mercy of God. We are washed and made pure in sanctifying grace. It’s not our own righteousness God sees, but that of his Son. That’s what baptism does.

Atheists and the unbaptized do not have this gift. Therefore, even the smallest sin makes them “not good.” Even for Catholics this is true. If sanctifying grace is lost by mortal sin, one cannot merit anything. We become “not good” and cannot enter heaven. No matter what kind of good deeds or acts of “charity” Catholics in mortal sin perform, they merit nothing. Such Catholics are not “good people” until they are reconciled to God in Confession.

These things you do are good deeds. They do not, however, make you a good person. Only God’s grace does that.

And this is not my opinion. Christ himself confirms this: There is none good but God alone.
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The Catholic Church disagrees with you. Many of our Saints committed mortal sins and yet we believe they are in Heaven.
 
SAVINGRACE said:
The Catholic Church disagrees with you. Many of our Saints committed mortal sins and yet we believe they are in Heaven.
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Yes. Because they were…drum roll…

Restored to sanctifying grace. In confession.

This is not personal opinion. It is Church teaching that only with sanctifying grace can one enter heaven. Christ confirmed this, the Church teaches it.

The mortal sins of the saints did not keep them from heaven because they repented of them and died in God’s grace and friendship. They died good, because they died in grace.

What’s the problem here?
 
porthos11 said:
Nobody can be good without God. Not even Christians, much less atheists.
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I get where you’re coming from. James 1:7 makes it clear that anything “good” comes from the Father. So whether you’re a believer, or not, all good originates from God.
 
porthos11 said:
Yes. Because they were…drum roll…

Restored to sanctifying grace. In confession.

This is not personal opinion. It is Church teaching that only with sanctifying grace can one enter heaven. Christ confirmed this, the Church teaches it.

The mortal sins of the saints did not keep them from heaven because they repented of them and died in God’s grace and friendship. They died good, because they died in grace.

What’s the problem here?
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The problem is you damning non baptized individuals to hell.
 
I do think that an atheist can be good, but not without God. What I mean is that the law is written into our hearts. To the extent that the atheist follows God’s law, they are a ‘good’ person. However, it is God that writes the law on their hearts and moves them to understand it.
 
porthos11 said:
Yes. Because they were…drum roll…

Restored to sanctifying grace. In confession.

This is not personal opinion. It is Church teaching that only with sanctifying grace can one enter heaven. Christ confirmed this, the Church teaches it.

The mortal sins of the saints did not keep them from heaven because they repented of them and died in God’s grace and friendship. They died good, because they died in grace.

What’s the problem here?
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God can confer grace to an atheist without baptising them in the faith. He can choose to save that atheist and send him to heaven regardless of the fact that he is not baptised. There are no limitations to God’s mercy, his mercy is infinite. It’s easier for an atheist who is kind, loving and generous to enter Heaven than for a baptised Catholic who does not practice the faith regularly or judges others or indulges in gossip or commits unconfessed mortal sins.
 
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