Can atheists be holy without sanctifying grace? (Merged)

[porthos11]

I do think that an atheist can be good, but not without God. What I mean is that the law is written into our hearts. To the extent that the atheist follows God’s law, they are a ‘good’ person. However, it is God that writes the law on their hearts and moves them to understand it.

Of course we do need to make the distinction. There is “good” in the human standard, which is governed by our reason. In that sense, one can say one is “good” if he lives a life consistent with what a reasonable human being would expect from one who ought to live a life in peace with fellow human beings.

But there is also “good” in the theological sense, and here, Jesus’ words come into play: there is none good but God alone (cf. Mark 10:18). Which is right, because man is now fallen; we are born into original sin, and nothing unclean enters heaven. This is why Christ came, died, rose, and left us the Sacraments, especially of baptism and penance, so that we can enter and be restored to his grace, because by ourselves, we are not “good.” To enter heaven, we need to have in us the goodness of God himself, not our own. In this sense, good and holy are equivalent.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

Of course we do need to make the distinction. There is “good” in the human standard, which is governed by our reason. In that sense, one can say one is “good” if he lives a life consistent with what a reasonable human being would expect from one who ought to live a life in peace with fellow human beings.

But there is also “good” in the theological sense, and here, Jesus’ words come into play: there is none good but God alone (cf. Mark 10:18). Which is right, because man is now fallen; we are born into original sin, and nothing unclean enters heaven. This is why Christ came, died, rose, and left us the Sacraments, especially of baptism and penance, so that we can enter and be restored to his grace, because by ourselves, we are not “good.” To enter heaven, we need to have in us the goodness of God himself, not our own. In this sense, good and holy are equivalent.

Your resolve to damn atheists to hell speaks volume about your ignorance of the church and her teachings.

 

[porthos11]

God can confer grace to an atheist without baptising them in the faith. He can choose to save that atheist and send him to heaven regardless of the fact that he is not baptised. There are no limitations to God’s mercy, his mercy is infinite. It’s easier for an atheist who is kind, loving and generous to enter Heaven than for a baptised Catholic who does not practice the faith regularly or judges others or indulges in gossip or commits unconfessed mortal sins.

You are correct, which is why the Church does not despair over the salvation of those who are invincibly ignorant.

An atheist who makes it to heaven still, however, does so by God’s grace, and the something equivalent to baptism, namely, the baptism of desire. However, remember though: we do not know that for any given unbaptized person, because Christ made baptism an absolute necessity for salvation. This is all in the Bible. We can hope for the salvation of such atheists of good faith. We, however, cannot just decree that they have gone to heaven. Only God knows who made it.

That, however, kicks in at the moment of death. I judged from the OP’s question that we are dealing, however with a comparison of people still alive.

And again, do not confuse “good works” and being a good Catholic. An atheist who is kind, loving and generous will not earn heaven through those good works, because they are worth nothing for salvation. But God DOES look at the value of those works and out of nothing but his mercy and goodness, rewards them with actual graces to lead them to salvation. It is our belief as Catholics that God sends sufficient grace to every human being for salvation and that includes atheists and non-Christians. They, of course, still need to use their free will to respond to that grace and so find justification.

But we are not saved by our works. This is a common attack Protestants make against the Catholic Church, and is a misconception. We as Catholics fully confess that man is saved by GRACE alone, not by works.

And of course, Catholics who have unconfessed mortal sins are NOT in the state of grace, and if they die in that state, they merit hell. So they not “good”.

So again, I fail to see the problem.

 

[fred_conty]

how can catholics say atheist can go to heaven when hebrews 11:6 says without faith it is impossable to please god?

Can atheists be holy without sanctifying grace?
No one can be holy without sanctifying grace. Because one is only holy if one is in sanctifying grace, or alive in Christ thru his divine life of grace. This holds for everyone.

 

[Bookcat]

Strong disagree. Atheists raised over $30K to charities.

They can do yes good actions -but *God *is yes still involved on those good actions.

And it is correct that Atheists cannot be good without God.

It is simply not possible.

 

[Bookcat]

*If *they are not in a state of Grace …they are not holy.

We do* not *enter into life by our “good deeds”… we do *not *enter such by our virtues.

But such good works can be a good sign of our openness to God even if we do not know it…that we are open to truth and goodness - open to God. God can work with this - God can reach us in ways others do not see.

Whoever is saved in the end…will be saved by Jesus Christ….even if he has never heard of him or the Church …or has a mistaken notion that is not his fault etc etc

One does not enter the state of true life by good works…but by grace.

 

[Church_Militant]

Strong disagree. Atheists raised over $30K to charities.

True, these good works are not without merit to society but I think the issue really is if they are efficacious to salvation of their souls.

The Bible and the church teaches that good works on their own are not salvific, but the truth is that whether said atheists believe in God or not is irrelevant and their good works are a conduit of grace to them that can certainly lead to conversion…and salvation. This is, of course not something that we can properly discern ourselves as to anyone else’s final end, but certainly we can have hope and of course add our own intercessory prayers for them.

 

[Church_Militant]

I guess Hitler was “good” because he was baptized catholic, receiving gods grace.

You again. And with your favourite topic, Hitler.

Hitler lost the state of grace long ago. When he was baptized, he was good. He stopped being that when he committed his first mortal sin from which did not repented. The rest is history.

Stop caricaturing the Faith.

And with you here, I’m gone.

The problem is you damning non baptized individuals to hell.

Again, you rudely make assertions not in evidence nor in alignment with Catholic or Biblical teaching. As I’ve said before you need to get out your New Testament, pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance, and read and study it having set aside your personal thinking while seeking only His truth and accept with humility whatever you find there. It will not take long for you to come to understand that both the Bible and the Church differ greatly from your personal “independent” (mis)interpretations. I again urge you to watch your tone or you will get reported.

Your resolve to damn atheists to hell speaks volume about your ignorance of the church and her teachings.

As I’ve said before …don’t project like that. You have described your own position in this post better than any of us could have. http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/emo-epicfail.png

 

[NM505StKate]

They can do yes good actions -but *God *is yes still involved on those good actions.

And it is correct that Atheists cannot be good without God.

It is simply not possible.

Why? Why couldn’t they just be doing good for the sake of doing good? If a Muslim donates to charity aren’t they good without god? How about a Wiccan whom volunteers at a shelters, that is good without god. There are many examples of people just doing good and it complicates things to say “God guided them” or “Cannot be good without God”.

 

[Bookcat]

Why? Why couldn’t they just be doing good for the sake of doing good? If a Muslim donates to charity aren’t they good without god? How about a Wiccan whom volunteers at a shelters, that is good without god. There are many examples of people just doing good and it complicates things to say “God guided them” or “Cannot be good without God”.

No there is no good without God.

Period.
*
By definition.*

The good actions that are done -that are “good acts” are not done “without God”. If they do a good act - yes it is not done without God. God is rather involved.

Just as they cannot exist without God.

(and for readers regarding the other question forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14457539&postcount=124)

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

Again, you rudely make assertions not in evidence nor in alignment with Catholic or Biblical teaching. As I’ve said before you need to get out your New Testament, pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance, and read and study it having set aside your personal thinking while seeking only His truth and accept with humility whatever you find there. It will not take long for you to come to understand that both the Bible and the Church differ greatly from your personal “independent” (mis)interpretations. I again urge you to watch your tone or you will get reported.

As I’ve said before …don’t project like that. You have described your own position in this post better than any of us could have. http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/emo-epicfail.png

If you don’t like what Christ has said then your issue is with Him…not me.

If you wish to troll, then you’re on your own effective right after this posts.

I will not sit here and take your unfounded and baseless insults.

If you wish to exercise your “so called” damning powers that only God has, that is your prerogative, not mine. If you wish to hurl insults and unfounded attacks for simple disagreements, that is on you. If you believe Christ would have preferred Hitler simply because Hitlers parents had him baptized over good atheists who do not believe simply, I will not damn you, but i will certainly strongly disagree. If you are still so keen on the damning and insults then I will have to pray God takes mercy on you.

From here on in, it is on you.

 

[NM505StKate]

No there is no good without God.

Period.
*
By definition.*

The good actions that are done -that are “good acts” are not done “without God”. If they do a good act - yes it is not done without God. God is rather involved.

Just as they cannot exist without God.

(and for readers regarding the other question forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14457539&postcount=124)

I have to disagree because people can and do all kinds of good acts just to do them. No higher power involved. Doesn’t that cheapen the acts if god is required?

 

[TexCatholic4JMJ]

I have to disagree because people can and do all kinds of good acts just to do them. No higher power involved. Doesn’t that cheapen the acts if god is required?

I remember once when an atheist told someone that he did not believe in God. The
person responded, "That’s okay, you’ll be in real trouble if God doesn’t believe in you

There can be no good without God.

 

[NM505StKate]

I remember once when an atheist told someone that he did not believe in God. The
person responded, "That’s okay, you’ll be in real trouble if God doesn’t believe in you

There can be no good without God.

Yeah that is a standard response atheists get. Pascal wager in there. Also the definition of good:

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/good

 

[Church_Militant]

Why? Why couldn’t they just be doing good for the sake of doing good? If a Muslim donates to charity aren’t they good without god? How about a Wiccan whom volunteers at a shelters, that is good without god. There are many examples of people just doing good and it complicates things to say “God guided them” or “Cannot be good without God”.

Do you not suspect that even their disbelieving yet good works do not descend form a divine work within them (upon them perhaps…) we do see Old Testament examples of even enemies of God being taken by the Holy Spirit and prophesying, which is pretty weird but there is a that precedent.

Then also we have a New Testament passage that plainly tells us … ***“17 all good giving and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no alteration or shadow caused by change.” (James 1) ***

So then, as I said, even if someone does not believe in God that does not mean that they do not do good things under His unacknowledged influence. This gives us reasons for our hope and that our prayers on their behalf and even a kind compliment of appreciation of their good is not at all counter to our most holy faith.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

Do you not suspect that even their disbelieving yet good works do not descend form a divine work within them (upon them perhaps…) we do see Old Testament examples of even enemies of God being taken by the Holy Spirit and prophesying, which is pretty weird but there is a that precedent.

Then also we have a New Testament passage that plainly tells us … ***“17 all good giving and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no alteration or shadow caused by change.” (James 1) ***

So then, as I said, even if someone does not believe in God that does not mean that they do not do good things under His unacknowledged influence. This gives us reasons for our hope and that our prayers on their behalf and even a kind compliment of appreciation of their good is not at all counter to our most holy faith.

Glad you can deduce basic logic, but I am actually inclined to partially agreed with you.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

No one is good, at least on his own.

I**f these “good” atheists have even the smallest bit of venial sin, they are not good. **Ditto for Catholics, except that sanctifying grace is the justice and mercy of God. We are washed and made pure in sanctifying grace. It’s not our own righteousness God sees, but that of his Son. That’s what baptism does.

Atheists and the unbaptized do not have this gift. Therefore, even the smallest sin makes them “not good.” Even for Catholics this is true. If sanctifying grace is lost by mortal sin, one cannot merit anything. We become “not good” and cannot enter heaven. No matter what kind of good deeds or acts of “charity” Catholics in mortal sin perform, they merit nothing. Such Catholics are not “good people” until they are reconciled to God in Confession.

These things you do are good deeds. They do not, however, make you a good person. Only God’s grace does that.

And this is not my opinion. Christ himself confirms this: There is none good but God alone.

Hey guys! Did you hear that? If you’re a non christian or unbaptized do not bother doing any good, because they are not worth of merit. You’re actually evil! Does not matter how much charity you do, God sees is as not good! If you’re a catholic in mortal sin do not bother volunteering at the local shelter or pregnancy helpline as your incapable of doing good!

 

[Bookcat]

There can be no good without God.

Indeed.

No anything without God.

I have to disagree because people can and do all kinds of good acts just to do them. No higher power involved. Doesn’t that cheapen the acts if God is required?

It not possible to disagree here (and be correct).

One cannot be or act without God. Period.

Likewise one cannot do “good” without God being involved.

A good act that an atheist does - is yes done involving God.

No it does not cheapen the acts - it give them their reality.

Without God there are no acts…no *existence. *

 

[James248]

Hey guys! Did you hear that? If you’re a non christian or unbaptized do not bother doing any good, because they are not worth of merit. You’re actually evil! Does not matter how much charity you do, God sees is as not good! If you’re a catholic in mortal sin do not bother volunteering at the local shelter or pregnancy helpline as your incapable of doing good!

Observance of God’s Law alone has not saved anyone. One must receive the redemptive grace of God. Because if observance of the Law alone saves anyone, Christ died for nothing.

 

[TheTrinitySaves]

Observance of God’s Law alone has not saved anyone. One must receive the redemptive grace of God. Because if observance of the Law alone saves anyone, Christ died for nothing.

Ok. So yes, those who are non baptized should not even bother doing charity or living good lives because no matter what them and their actions are inherently evil.