Can attraction be forced/willed?

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BlueEyedLady said:
:confused:. It’s not a mystery who “drafted” Roe v.Wade - the majority opinion was penned by Justice Blackmun and signed by 6 other (named) justices.
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My point was more metaphorical, i.e. same school of draftsmanship, same ultimate origin. Let’s not confuse judicial votes and signatures with the origin of the rhetoric and the approach.
Likewise, the history of no fault divorce legislation in the US is equally transparent. Laws changed in all 50 states over the course of 4 or so decades, with the laws in each state varying. It started in CA (under Reagan), and ended in NY.
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No need to recount that.
For the most part, it wasn’t pushed for by people wanting to leave their spouses, but by judges sick of having to humor couples as they perjured themselves to get out of marriage. The grumbling about this in the legal community started decades earlier.
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That’s the official version. And yes, it appears solid on the face, given the amount of perjury and collusion involved in procuring a mutually desired divorce by some parties desperate to get one. Still, the whole thing shows an understanding of marriage more akin to Roman law, i.e. consensual affair that lasts as long as the consent does (old stuff, nothing new).
I’m all for preserving marriage, I just don’t think the end of legal no fault divorce would make a whit of difference; it would just backlog courts and make divorce and custody even more contentious. (If someone is pushed to label their ex ‘cruel’ or ‘abusive’ in court just to get a divorce, good luck on joint custody). It’s not a moral issue, just a practical one from the perspective of the state.
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I’m not exactly convinced the cure is proportionate to the mischief.
 
This is an interesting thread. Thanks for asking.

I don’t think attraction can be forced. Lots of others have (rightly) pointed out that attraction can grow as one gets to know the other. But, that attraction grows organically. And, as others have noted, attraction is not necessarily physical, but can be emotional or otherwise.

When I first met my wife, I was lukewarm. As I didn’t know her at all, my only impressions were physical and the few words she uttered (this was at a group discussion). While I thought she looked nice enough, I wasn’t interested in pursuing her. But, as we got to know each other, I found myself smitten. Today, I still think she’s pretty, but I love her and am more attracted to her today than I ever was 12 years ago.
 
I think we have to be wary of false dichotomies here. I can think of extreme situations such as someone with strong SSA, where even a trial of “forcing” an opposite-sex attraction is likely not prudent even if theoretically possible, and certainly, not disclosing the lack of attraction is problematic, indeed I doubt such a marriage would even be valid, at least in most cases, I think even women willing to marry a man with SSA (or vice versa) would NOT want to be deceived about it.

However, it’s not true that if attraction either happens on first sight, or never happens, and that therefore, if you don’t feel a “spark” right away then you should immediately cross that person off your list of potential mates. Although I have heard some people claim this is true for men, LundyLund’s testimony shows that is certainly not the case for all men.

I can also think of a now married couple who went to the same high school, but did not even run in the same social circles, much less date. They happened to meet again years after graduation, and found a “spark” then, that had not been present when they were teenagers.
 
EasterJoy said:
I **do think **it is a problem that there is no business contract easier or more lucrative to get out of than a marriage contract, but I don’t think that going back to the previous system would be a cure for the divorce mindset. By "divorce mindset, I mean the mental reservation at marriage or during conflicts within marriage by which one spouse to himself/herself: “if it doesn’t work out for me, I’ll just leave and do something else.”

I don’t know if there is a “cure” for the no-fault divorce culture, because I don’t think it only has to do with marriage. Anyone who has ever been in charge of herding volunteers knows that there is a more fundamental lack of will to stick with even minor commitments that goes far beyond a legislative fix.

If people only do what they feel like doing, if they really do believe there is a “job you love” out there which will allow you to “never work a day in your life” or if they really feel that with a spouse who attracts them in the right way they’ll never selfishly wonder why they ever got married in the first place, there is no law that can magically give them a more faithful mindset. Those are people primed to fail at marriage.

Yes, you are right. While no-fault divorce might give people the unfortunate idea that there is such a thing as no-damage divorce, it is not the primary reason for the divorce rate. The kinds of things Americans were willing to do in order to get a divorce resulted in no-fault divorce laws more than the other way around.

I hadn’t thought about it that way before, but it is true. 😦
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I agree with you, this is a social problem. The world changed rapidly, and virtually every American institution was left spinning. Not just churches; schools, professional associations, labor groups, social clubs, etc have all lost participation in the last few decades. We are simultaneously more connected and more isolated than ever before. It stands to reason that like every other institution, the nuclear family would feel the effects of these changes too.

Divorce on its own doesn’t bother me; adults can ruin their lives however they wish. But, the number of children growing up in single parent households should alarm anyone even passingly familiar with the outcomes of single vs two parent homes.

I’m not convinced rolling back no fault divorce would do anything but destroy the notion of getting married in the first place. I can’t imagine raising my generation, or even the one before (Gen X) in a world where unless you can prove to a Court that you’re being mistreated and convince them that you shouldn’t be, your abusive spouse still has a right to your finances, home, everything. You know those old timey horror stories about literally being trapped with an abuser? It would only take a couple modern day versions of those complete with a dead wife and/or child to go viral on social media before everyone is raising their children to avoid marriage all together. It wouldn’t even have to be a common occurrence; just the idea that a Court could rule you permanently tied to someone violent (or addicted) would scare pretty much anyone away.

It’s interesting to me that despite being polar opposites in a lot of ways, Catholics and atheists have comparable divorce rates, and they are both notably low. This tells me the problem can be worked on across society; it’s not that marriage is hopeless unless you fit XYZ demographic or mold. There are some things atheists and Catholics tend to have in common though: education, later marriage, and higher SES. They are also both more likely to marry someone with similar values.

I’m getting to the age where my peers are starting to divorce, and I’m like :eek:. I’m not even 30 yet! But then I look at the couple and I notice two things: It’s certainly not a “no fault” situation; and, these people shouldn’t have been getting married in the first place! You’re right, maturity, commitment, selflessness, and everything else required for marriage is absent. Looking around at my friends and family of a similar age, and there are very few I would recommend anyone marry. It isn’t that they have character problems, they just don’t have what it takes in terms of thinking outside themselves. Until we better foster those traits, marriage isn’t turning around.
 
BlueEyedLady said:
I agree with you, this is a social problem. The world changed rapidly, and virtually every American institution was left spinning. Not just churches; schools, professional associations, labor groups, social clubs, etc have all lost participation in the last few decades. We are simultaneously more connected and more isolated than ever before. It stands to reason that like every other institution, the nuclear family would feel the effects of these changes too.

Divorce on its own doesn’t bother me; adults can ruin their lives however they wish. But, the number of children growing up in single parent households should alarm anyone even passingly familiar with the outcomes of single vs two parent homes.

I’m not convinced rolling back no fault divorce would do anything but destroy the notion of getting married in the first place…

I’m getting to the age where my peers are starting to divorce, and I’m like :eek:. I’m not even 30 yet! But then I look at the couple and I notice two things: It’s certainly not a “no fault” situation; and, these people shouldn’t have been getting married in the first place! You’re right, maturity, commitment, selflessness, and everything else required for marriage is absent. Looking around at my friends and family of a similar age, and there are very few I would recommend anyone marry. It isn’t that they have character problems, they just don’t have what it takes in terms of thinking outside themselves. Until we better foster those traits, marriage isn’t turning around.
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Pope Francis has said that many marriages are not valid today because the participants aren’t capable of a valid marriage or do not appreciate the nature of marriage when they make their vows. He bases this on the degree to which the "provisional’ has soaked into the thinking even of Catholics:

catholicnews.com/services/englishnews/2016/too-many-couples-do-not-understand-marriage-is-for-life-pope-says.cfm

And see also his Q and A with the young people of Umbria, Italy:

…Dear friends, this moral and spiritual foundation is necessary in order to build well in a lasting way! Today, this foundation is no longer guaranteed by family life and the social tradition. Indeed, the society in which you were raised favours individual rights rather than the family — these individual rights. It favours relationships that last until difficulties arise, and this is why it sometimes speaks about relationships between couples, within families and between spouses in a superficial and misleading way. It is enough to watch certain television programs to see these values on display! **How many times parish priests — sometimes I myself also heard it — hear a couple that comes to get married say: “But you both know that marriage is for life?” “Ah, we love each other so much, but… we’ll stay together as long as the love lasts. When it ends, we’ll each go our separate way”. This is selfishness: when I feel like it, I’ll end the marriage and forget the “one flesh” that cannot be separated. It is risky to get married: it is risky! It is this egoism which threatens it, because we each have within us this possibility of a dual personality: the one that says, “I am free, I want this …” and the other which says, “I, me, to me, with me, for me …”. Selfishness always returns and does not know how to open up to others. The other difficulty is this culture of the temporary: it seems as though nothing is definitive. Everything is provisional. As I said before: love, as long as it lasts. I once heard a seminarian — a good person — say: “I want to become a priest, but for ten years. Then I’ll rethink it.” This is the culture of the temporary, and Jesus didn’t save us temporarily: he saved us definitively!
**
However, the Holy Spirit is always stirring up new answers to new needs! Thus, programs for engaged couples, marriage preparation courses, parish groups for young couples and family movements have been multiplying in the Church. They are an immense wealth! They are reference points for everyone: young people searching, couples in crisis, parents having difficulties with their children or vice versa. They help everyone! And then there are the different forms of acceptance: foster care, adoption, family homes of various kinds. The imagination — if I may use that word — the imagination of the Holy Spirit is infinite but very practical! And so I wish to tell you to not be afraid to take definitive steps: do not be afraid to take them. How many times I have heard mothers tell me: “But, Father, I have a son who is 30 years old and he won’t get married. I don’t know what to do! He has a beautiful girlfriend, but he won’t make up his mind”. Well, Madame, stop ironing his shirts! That’s how it is! Do not be afraid to take steps which are permanent, like getting married: deepen your love by respecting its seasons and expressions, pray, prepare yourselves well; and then trust that the Lord will not leave you alone! Let him come into your home like one of the family, He will always sustain you!..

w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/speeches/2013/october/documents/papa-francesco_20131004_giovani-assisi.html
 
Are we talking about attraction as in marital bliss or as in personalities? I mean, I suppose own could have an irrational fixation on having a spouse exactly like ownself. Level of outgoing vs shyness, interests, tastes in subjective things, etc.
 
Bookcat said:
It can grow over time and yes ones will can be involved.

St.Thomas More was more interested in the younger girl…but intentionally choose to frame his interests towards the older girl (whom he then married) since she was the older and not married (those were different times of course).
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Because he felt sorry for her?
 
EasterJoy said:
I’m very fond of this duet, too, from Fiddler on the Roof:

(Tevye) Golde, I have decided to give Perchik permission to become engaged to our daughter, Hodel.

(Golde) What??? He’s poor! He has nothing, absolutely nothing!

(Tevye) He’s a good man, Golde.
I like him. And what’s more important, Hodel likes him. Hodel loves him.
So what can we do?
It’s a new world… A new world…Love…

Golde…Do you love me?

(Golde)
Do I what?!?

(Tevye)
Do you love me?

(Golde)
Do I love you?

With our daughters getting married
And this trouble in the town
You’re upset, you’re worn out
Go inside, go lie down!
Maybe it’s indigestion…

(Tevye)
Golde I’m asking you a question…

Do you love me?

(Golde)
You’re a fool

(Tevye)
I know…

But do you love me?

(Golde)
Do I love you?

For twenty-five years I’ve washed your clothes
Cooked your meals, cleaned your house
Given you children, milked the cow
After twenty-five years, why talk about love right now?

(Tevye) Golde, The first time I met you
Was on our wedding day
I was scared

(Golde)
I was shy

(Tevye)
I was nervous

(Golde)
So was I

(Tevye)
But my father and my mother
Said we’d learn to love each other
And now I’m asking, Golde
Do you love me?

(Golde)
I’m your wife

(Tevye)
I know…
But do you love me?

(Golde)
Do I love him?
For twenty-five years I’ve lived with him
Fought him, starved with him
Twenty-five years my bed is his
If that’s not love, what is?

(Tevye)
Then you love me?

(Golde)
I suppose I do

(Tevye)
And I suppose I love you too

(Both)
It doesn’t change a thing
But even so
After twenty-five years
It’s nice to know
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Definitely in my top five musicals of all time!
 
fin said:
What do you think? I think it’s not something that you can force, but perhaps some think otherwise. I also think that while attraction isn’t the only important thing of course, it is important right? I mean, that’s what makes it different from all other relationships.
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Yes.


verb (used with object)
  1. to draw by a physical force causing or tending to cause to approach, adhere, or unite; pull (opposed to repel ): The gravitational force of the earth attracts smaller bodies to it.
  2. to draw by appealing to the emotions or senses, by stimulating interest, or by exciting admiration; allure; invite: to attract attention; to attract admirers by one’s charm.
 
Ohhhhh … I thought this thread was about an attraction that’s force-willed (I.e. willed by the Force). Now I feel like a nerd. 😊
 
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