Can ayone find OSAS before the Reformation?

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Ahoy there, CAF posters. I have recently been called out on my frequently-voiced assumption that OSAS (or, more directly, perseverance of the saints) was a product of the event commonly referred to as the Reformation. Can anyone demonstrate this belief’s existence prior to the 16th century? If you do so, you will dramatically realign my apologetics philosophy and win a brand new car!!*

*Contestants actually have no chance whatsoever of winning a brand new car because the Spectator is quite poor and completely unwilling to render this or any good under any circumstance. The second predicate part of this sentence is completely false, and is not binding in any way.
 
Ahoy there, CAF posters. I have recently been called out on my frequently-voiced assumption that OSAS (or, more directly, perseverance of the saints) was a product of the event commonly referred to as the Reformation. Can anyone demonstrate this belief’s existence prior to the 16th century? If you do so, you will dramatically realign my apologetics philosophy and win a brand new car!!*
Pretty much any form of Gnosticism (which is not the answer I think you’re after). The idea that once we’re “enlightened” by gnosis what we do in the flesh does not matter is pretty much equivalent to OSAS or eternal security. However, I assume you’re challenging OSAS believers to find support from the ECFs? I think it’s pretty obvious that you can thank Augustine, as that’s where Calvin got most of his ideas.

Anyway, several sects were teaching, at least implicitly, eternal security before the Apostles were even gone, as they address it in their letters, e.g. “the way of Balaam” and the “practices of the Nicolaitans” from Rev 2. These guys taught that you were saved by believing and that you could do whatever you wanted (e.g. sexual immorality and other consequences of libertinism).

However, most believers in OSAS don’t teach libertinism even if it seems like a necessary conclusion. My main criticism of Catholicism and theology in general - it suffers from overexplanation and umpteenth order inferences. Leave well enough alone and stick with what the Scripture says (in my humble opinion - I realize this is another debate altogether).
 
Ahoy there, CAF posters. I have recently been called out on my frequently-voiced assumption that OSAS (or, more directly, perseverance of the saints) was a product of the event commonly referred to as the Reformation. Can anyone demonstrate this belief’s existence prior to the 16th century? If you do so, you will dramatically realign my apologetics philosophy and win a brand new car!!*
The only precedents one can find for this are in Catharism and other heretical groups. The orthodox Augustinian tradition held that one could receive regenerating grace without receiving the gift of perseverance. Luther believed the same thing. The first references to the perseverance of all the regenerate that I’ve been able to find are in the writings of Zwingli and Oecolampadius in the early 1520s. Since they state the idea as if it were well established and not something they had just thought up, the case remains rather puzzling. But I think it simply followed logically from Zwingli’s prioritizing of election over faith. (Zwingli believed that the elect would be saved even if they never heard the Gospel, and hence never had faith. The elect would inevitably both do good works *and *believe the Gospel when they heard it, but election was the spring that drove the whole process.)

Bucer (in his writings of the 1530s–earlier he was closer to Zwingli) and Calvin moved Reformed theology closer to Wittenberg (I know less about Bullinger). Calvin in particular managed to synthesize the Reformed theology of election and perseverance with the Lutheran theology of sola fide, creating what we now think of as Reformed/Calvinist theology. But originally it seems to me that perseverance was distinct from sola fide and almost in conflict with it.

Another interesting figure is Martin Borrhaus, or Cellarius–one of those wandering theologians common in the early 16th century who had trouble fitting in with anyone (though he eventually settled down as a respectable OT scholar at Basel). He was kicked out of his native Silesia by the Catholics; he went to Wittenberg and quarreled with Luther and Melancthon; he went to Zurich and quarreled with Zwingli; he went to Strasbourg and got along with Capito for a while, but eventually Bucer got fed up with him and he was kicked out of there too. While in Strasbourg he wrote a book called De operibus Dei (On the Works of God), published in 1527. Shortly after his point, Bucer turned on Cellarius. But Bucer’s 1527 commentary on the Gospels has a number of interesting points of agreement with Cellarius. Cellarius believes that the elect have “sparks” of grace within them from birth, which causes them to live relatively righteous lives even before they are regenerated. Bucer uses that language in 1527 as well, but it’s not at all in keeping with the Augustinian tradition or with Luther’s teaching. You find a weaker version of it in Calvin’s Institutes.

I mention Cellarius because his teaching does sound almost Gnostic or Manichean/Cathar. This is a part of the background of the doctrine of perseverance which the Reformed either deny or play down. Jurgen Moltmann’s history of the doctrine of perseverance, for instance, basically starts with Calvin, mentioning briefly and dismissively that Bucer’s doctrine of perseverance was “spiritualist” and had ties to Cellarius.

If you are interested, I can send you the rough draft of a paper I wrote on Cellarius and the origins of the doctrine of perseverance. It needs a lot of work–I prepared it for oral presentation and have never revised it for written publication.

Edwin
 
You will not be finding any real references to OSAS in the ECFs or in any form of heresy before the reformation. The problem is going to lie in the fundamental problem between protestants and Catholics and that is without an authoritative body, you can make the Bible, the ECFs, and anything else you want say what you wish it to say. It just takes a single Bible verse (or ECF quote) to be focused on at the exclusion of the rest of the Bible (or ECF writing) and BAM, you have OSAS. Reality is that there are few things more clear in the Bible than the utter lack of OSAS.
Leave well enough alone and stick with what the Scripture says (in my humble opinion - I realize this is another debate altogether).
God is smarter than we are. His words are more powerful than people give them credit for. The fact is that the Catholic Church sticks with what Scripture says, but sometimes it takes more explanation to understand what God is saying. If you think you can just jump into Scripture, read a chapter and know what God said definitively, you are mistaken. There are Jewish concepts you need to understand. Creation concepts, scientific concepts, spiritual concepts, logical concepts, etc. This is why after 2000 years, we don’t know everything yet and can’t know everything until we are in Heaven. If you think it is simply following Scripture with no explanation, then the problem you have is that you are over simplifying the 2000+ pages and 2000+ years God has given us. If it were faith alone and OSAS, you would only need three sentences of inspired text.

God Bless.
 
Pretty much any form of Gnosticism (which is not the answer I think you’re after). The idea that once we’re “enlightened” by gnosis what we do in the flesh does not matter is pretty much equivalent to OSAS or eternal security. However, I assume you’re challenging OSAS believers to find support from the ECFs? I think it’s pretty obvious that you can thank Augustine, as that’s where Calvin got most of his ideas.

Anyway, several sects were teaching, at least implicitly, eternal security before the Apostles were even gone, as they address it in their letters, e.g. “the way of Balaam” and the “practices of the Nicolaitans” from Rev 2. These guys taught that you were saved by believing and that you could do whatever you wanted (e.g. sexual immorality and other consequences of libertinism).

However, most believers in OSAS don’t teach libertinism even if it seems like a necessary conclusion. My main criticism of Catholicism and theology in general - it suffers from overexplanation and umpteenth order inferences. Leave well enough alone and stick with what the Scripture says (in my humble opinion - I realize this is another debate altogether).
yep. leave all alone. right. it is better to leave all alone this way those with heretical views cannot be countable for their heresies. one cannot forget the history of the Church. the Church did not started 100 yrs ago. it is 2000 yrs old. how can any one ask this beautiful history to be left alone is beyond me. only those without history could say such a thing. relavitism at its core.
 
You will not be finding any real references to OSAS in the ECFs or in any form of heresy before the reformation. The problem is going to lie in the fundamental problem between protestants and Catholics and that is without an authoritative body, you can make the Bible, the ECFs, and anything else you want say what you wish it to say. It just takes a single Bible verse (or ECF quote) to be focused on at the exclusion of the rest of the Bible (or ECF writing) and BAM, you have OSAS. Reality is that there are few things more clear in the Bible than the utter lack of OSAS.

God is smarter than we are. His words are more powerful than people give them credit for. The fact is that the Catholic Church sticks with what Scripture says, but sometimes it takes more explanation to understand what God is saying. If you think you can just jump into Scripture, read a chapter and know what God said definitively, you are mistaken. There are Jewish concepts you need to understand. Creation concepts, scientific concepts, spiritual concepts, logical concepts, etc. This is why after 2000 years, we don’t know everything yet and can’t know everything until we are in Heaven. If you think it is simply following Scripture with no explanation, then the problem you have is that you are over simplifying the 2000+ pages and 2000+ years God has given us. If it were faith alone and OSAS, you would only need three sentences of inspired text.

God Bless.
I’m always amazed at Catholic ability to do this.

Question begging: Does your church really stick with what Scriptures says? No. Did it demonstrate understanding of Jewish, scientific, and logical concepts over the ages? No. Strawmen: Did I say you could just jump into scripture, read a chapter and know what God said definitively? No. Do I believe in faith alone and OSAS? No.

Don’t you find it odd that you wrote that whole paragraph and none of it applies to what I said or my personal beliefs?

Oddly, most of what the earliest Christians wrote were direct quotes of the Old and New Testaments. Some condemned those who attempted to be “improvers of the Apostles” as if they did not have “perfect knowledge” when they “first by word of mouth, and then by writing” delivered the message to us (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:1:1).
 
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wisdomseeker:
yep. leave all alone. right. it is better to leave all alone this way those with heretical views cannot be countable for their heresies. one cannot forget the history of the Church. the Church did not started 100 yrs ago. it is 2000 yrs old. how can any one ask this beautiful history to be left alone is beyond me. only those without history could say such a thing. relavitism at its core.

Relativism? Are you serious? And when did I say ignore Church history? You see? It’s like a Catholic disease. You guys just can’t help attacking strawmen and responding to arguments that nobody has made. This is why I don’t come here often.
 
Relativism? Are you serious? And when did I say ignore Church history? You see? It’s like a Catholic disease. You guys just can’t help attacking strawmen and responding to arguments that nobody has made. This is why I don’t come here often.
forgive me if i misunderstood you. but didnt you say to just forget about all and just stick with Scriptures?
 
I’m always amazed at Catholic ability to do this.

Question begging: Does your church really stick with what Scriptures says? No. Did it demonstrate understanding of Jewish, scientific, and logical concepts over the ages? No. Strawmen: Did I say you could just jump into scripture, read a chapter and know what God said definitively? No. Do I believe in faith alone and OSAS? No.

Don’t you find it odd that you wrote that whole paragraph and none of it applies to what I said or my personal beliefs?

Oddly, most of what the earliest Christians wrote were direct quotes of the Old and New Testaments. Some condemned those who attempted to be “improvers of the Apostles” as if they did not have “perfect knowledge” when they “first by word of mouth, and then by writing” delivered the message to us (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:1:1).
The RCC does not stick to what the scriptures say? The ONLY church and the VERY church,which protected the scriptures from heretics throughout the ages,but is does not follow the scriptures?

The begging question is this: If Protestanism truly follows the Bible to the last letter,then I am curious to know why there exists thousands of different churches?
 
Different interpretations, obviously.
The RCC does not stick to what the scriptures say? The ONLY church and the VERY church,which protected the scriptures from heretics throughout the ages,but is does not follow the scriptures?

The begging question is this: If Protestanism truly follows the Bible to the last letter,then I am curious to know why there exists thousands of different churches?
 
If the RCC did not follow the Scriptures, we would be…well…protestant or LDS
 
forgive me if i misunderstood you. but didnt you say to just forget about all and just stick with Scriptures?
Um, no. I did not say “forget about all” (your implication is apparently that I’m saying forget about context or history). Nor did I say “just stick with Scriptures.” I said, just stick to what Scripture says. You see the difference? You immediately smack the label of “sola scripturist” on my comment, whereas my statement actually leaves room for including the socio-linguistic-historical context of the Scriptures. Sola Scriptura as most believe in it is untenable.

I always find this response from Catholics duplicitous, however, because they are always quick to say that all their doctrines are supported by Scriptures. Once again, odd. 🤷
 
The RCC does not stick to what the scriptures say? The ONLY church and the VERY church,which protected the scriptures from heretics throughout the ages,but is does not follow the scriptures?
What a prideful statement. I’d say it was God that preserved the Scriptures, don’t you think? He used the Jews to preserve the Scriptures as much as anyone else, but that’s not a basis to submit to the Jews’ interpretations of Old Testament prophecies concerning the Messiah now, is it? Didn’t think so.

Of course, your statement is untrue anyway. We have the Orthodox, of course, and several other churches that preserved the Scriptures, as well as archaeological discoveries revealing earlier (and better than the corrupted Vulgate) manuscripts having nothing to do with the RCC. Funny how you guys always claim to be the only one that traces itself “directly to the Apostles.” That’s misleading and borderline dishonest.
The begging question is this: If Protestanism truly follows the Bible to the last letter,then I am curious to know why there exists thousands of different churches?
You won’t find me defending “Protestantism” at large. “Protestantism” doesn’t even agree with itself, so saying that it does or does not follow the Bible to the last letter would be internally inconsistent statements. Protestantism is ambiguous and the term is not used in the same way by any two individuals. However, to claim that Catholicism is some perfectly united religion where everyone agrees is absurd, as evidenced for example by Obama’s honoring at Notre Dame, or Catholic Bishops supporting gay/lesbian/abortion movements (Just ask Michael Voris). Any response of yours to that will, of course, be a no true Scotsman argument, so save us the trouble.
 
Quote:
The begging question is this: If Protestanism truly follows the Bible to the last letter,then I am curious to know why there exists thousands of different churches?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
The RCC does not stick to what the scriptures say? The ONLY church and the VERY church,which protected the scriptures from heretics throughout the ages,but is does not follow the scriptures?
What a prideful statement. I’d say it was God that preserved the Scriptures, don’t you think? He used the Jews to preserve the Scriptures as much as anyone else, but that’s not a basis to submit to the Jews’ interpretations of Old Testament prophecies concerning the Messiah now, is it? Didn’t think so.

Of course, your statement is untrue anyway. We have the Orthodox, of course, and several other churches that preserved the Scriptures, as well as archaeological discoveries revealing earlier (and better than the corrupted Vulgate) manuscripts having nothing to do with the RCC. Funny how you guys always claim to be the only one that traces itself “directly to the Apostles.” That’s misleading and borderline dishonest.

You won’t find me defending “Protestantism” at large. “Protestantism” doesn’t even agree with itself, so saying that it does or does not follow the Bible to the last letter would be internally inconsistent statements. Protestantism is ambiguous and the term is not used in the same way by any two individuals. However, to claim that Catholicism is some perfectly united religion where everyone agrees is absurd, as evidenced for example by Obama’s honoring at Notre Dame, or Catholic Bishops supporting gay/lesbian/abortion movements (Just ask Michael Voris). Any response of yours to that will, of course, be a no true Scotsman argument, so save us the trouble.
And what a statement full of denial.Prideful statement? Only to those who REJECT historical facts,whether you care to admit it or not. It is not a question of God,but a question WHO he used and HOW! Monks and the Church,sorry if those two sources cause tension for you.
Funny how you guys always claim to be the only one that traces itself “directly to the Apostles.” That’s misleading and borderline dishonest
LOL! And funny how people like yourself insert biased views,which are plain DISINGENIOUS. The Catholic Church included the eastern churches who also had a huge role in preserving the scriptures,so let go of your distorted views. Time to learn some history and stop making absurd comments which are misleading and borderline dishonest.:tsktsk:
 
Quote:
The begging question is this: If Protestanism truly follows the Bible to the last letter,then I am curious to know why there exists thousands of different churches?

And what a statement full of denial.Prideful statement? Only to those who REJECT historical facts,whether you care to admit it or not. It is not a question of God,but a question WHO he used and HOW! Monks and the Church,sorry if those two sources cause tension for you.
Your point has already been refuted. God used the Jews, yet you are not Jewish. Just because God used a person or group, doesn’t make said group right. /ownage.
LOL! And funny how people like yourself insert biased views,which are plain DISINGENIOUS. The Catholic Church included the eastern churches who also had a huge role in preserving the scriptures,so let go of your distorted views. Time to learn some history and stop making absurd comments which are misleading and borderline dishonest.:tsktsk:
You said RCC. You even quoted it AGAIN, yet still do not see your mistake. The RCC **does not **include the Eastern Churches. Stop the ambiguity. Either communicate your meaning clearly or leave the debating to the grownups.
 
Your point has already been refuted. God used the Jews, yet you are not Jewish. Just because God used a person or group, doesn’t make said group right. /ownage.
This is a partial truth. God changed the way in which Truth is preserved. It is thanks to the Advocate that the Roman Catholic Church is able to preserve Truth. Only the Roman Catholic Church has the Holy Spirit actively protecting it from falling into error. It is the teachings of the Church that are protected, not the people of the Church. The people can disagree with the Church and they can sin, but it makes them wrong. The teachings of the Church, however, are not changing or contradicting and are free from error. Discussing that would be a new thread and you could search other threads for your arguments and their responses to that question.
You said RCC. You even quoted it AGAIN, yet still do not see your mistake. The RCC **does not **include the Eastern Churches. Stop the ambiguity. Either communicate your meaning clearly or leave the debating to the grownups.
Actually, what is being stated is that the Orthodox church broke away from the Catholic Church. Before this time, both the Orthodox church and the Roman Church were one. Since then, the Orthodox churches have further divided. Also, there are Eastern Catholic Churches which are part of the Roman Catholic Church, so even if you wanted to discuss current Church make-up, the OP would be accurate in stating that the RCC includes the eastern churches. It does not include every denomination but there is an Eastern Rite within the Church. But that was not the point.

The Bible was collected, canonized, maintained, controlled, and wouldn’t be here today if it were not for the work of the Roman Catholic Church. Depending on where you live, the Orthodox church did nothing for its preservation. I assume you are living in Europe or the US which means their preservation of scripture, which would not have started until about 600 years after its canonization because there was no “them” until then, would not have any impact on the copy of the Bible you are using today. Only the Catholic Church can be credited with bringing the Bible in its inerrant form to the 16th century. In case you were curious, the Orthodox (or eastern churches outside of the Pope) had little to no impact in developing the western world when you compare it to the work done by the Roman Catholic Church (or western Church). After that you can thank some protestants though many distorted the book so you really cannot credit them from that point either.

Really though, it has nothing to do with the original thread. In the end, the only two churches that could even remotely claim Apostolic succession (RCC and Orthodox) both do not believe in OSAS for a reason. This is because it is a creation of John Calvin and the like, not God. Not even Martin Luther, who lost his mind near the end, believed in this anti-Biblical theory.
 
=OchsFam;6847821]This is a partial truth. God changed the way in which Truth is preserved. It is thanks to the Advocate that the Roman Catholic Church is able to preserve Truth. Only the Roman Catholic Church has the Holy Spirit actively protecting it from falling into error. It is the teachings of the Church that are protected, not the people of the Church. The people can disagree with the Church and they can sin, but it makes them wrong. The teachings of the Church, however, are not changing or contradicting and are free from error. Discussing that would be a new thread and you could search other threads for your arguments and their responses to that question.
Actually, what is being stated is that the Orthodox church broke away from the Catholic Church. Before this time, both the Orthodox church and the Roman Church were one. Since then, the Orthodox churches have further divided.
Also, there are Eastern Catholic Churches which are part of the Roman Catholic Church, so even if you wanted to discuss current Church make-up, the OP would be accurate in stating that the RCC includes the eastern churches. It does not include every denomination but there is an Eastern Rite within the Church. But that was not the point.

The Orthodox would say that Rome broke away from them, then splintered during the Reformation.
The Bible was collected, canonized, maintained, controlled, and wouldn’t be here today if it were not for the work of the Roman Catholic Church.
And Luther gave the Catholic Church credit for doing so.
Depending on where you live, the Orthodox church did nothing for its preservation. I assume you are living in Europe or the US which means their preservation of scripture, which would not have started until about 600 years after its canonization because there was no “them” until then, would not have any impact on the copy of the Bible you are using today. Only the Catholic Church can be credited with bringing the Bible in its inerrant form to the 16th century.
Considering the level of oppression the eastern Church has gone through, they seem to have done a pretty good job themselves.
In case you were curious, the Orthodox (or eastern churches outside of the Pope) **had little to no impact in developing the western world when you compare it to the work done by the Roman Catholic Church (or western Church). ** After that you can thank some protestants though many distorted the book so you really cannot credit them from that point either.
Well, of course not. They are in the East.
Really though, it has nothing to do with the original thread. In the end, the only two churches that could even remotely claim Apostolic succession (RCC and Orthodox) both do not believe in OSAS for a reason. This is because it is a creation of John Calvin and the like, not God.
Well, the PNCC and Old Catholics have it, but you are right that it is essentially a Calvin invention.
Not even Martin Luther, who lost his mind near the end, believed in this anti-Biblical theory
Do you have a source for this comment that Luther lost his mind near the end?

Jon
 
Your point has already been refuted. God used the Jews, yet you are not Jewish. Just because God used a person or group, doesn’t make said group right. /ownage.

You said RCC. You even quoted it AGAIN, yet still do not see your mistake. The RCC **does not **include the Eastern Churches. Stop the ambiguity. Either communicate your meaning clearly or leave the debating to the grownups.
Grown ups? A clear sign the type of person I am dealing with.Refuted? I do not think so! You have not provided a single shred of evidence! Yes God used the Jews and then God used His Son a Jew who founded His Church,which includes EVERYONE,it is not a JEW only church! Go learn some history!

Yes the RCC is THE church,which canonized the OT/NT. If the RCC is NOT the church,then provide the name of the other church? Ambiguity? The term Roman is a RITE and within the CC there exists EASTERN RITES also known as eastern churches in communion with the pope. Go do some homework and leave this topic for people who know basic church history.
 
Wow! I almost forgot which forum I was on! I guess this place can be lively when the chips are down. I’m going to try and weigh in, here. Don’t mind me.

Regarding the possibility that a “wrong church” preserved the scriptures:

To begin with, I think the analogy is a bit busted. Y’see, during the time in which the Jews preserved the scriptures, Judaism was the most complete expression of God’s revelation and was therefore correct. To claim they were in charge of doing so after the whole Jesus thing (when they no longer were the most complete expression of God’s revelation) is a bit specious. They were in charge of preserving the totality of God’s revelation during the time in which God’s revelation entailed only those parts which they currently accept (with concessions toward the fact that modern Judaism barely resembles what was then Judaism, of course).

Enter Christianity. Often, it is claimed that the only Christianity which existed in history was racked with “unbiblical” doctrines (though, I’ve been through the semantics before, and the people who intend to be pejorative in saying this should actually be using the term “antibiblical”) until such time that one’s favorite reformer came along and returned Christianity to its “correct” state (which, in every case that I have yet encountered, can not be demonstrated to have ever existed in the first place). This has rather dire implications when put up against all of those gates-of-Hell-shall-not/with-you-until-the-end/lead-you-unto-all-truth sort of verses. Many often try to get around this in one of three ways. One is to suggest that the Church is entirely to be understood as a fuzzy non-institution which has a way of running afoul of any scripture which discusses the authority thereof. The second is Trail of Blood (which is an affront to rational thought if ever there was one). The last is by means of The Great Apostasy, which more or less just ignores the original problem. Frankly, I don’t really find any of them all that convincing, and I’m starting to wonder if anyone really does. Do noncatholics concern themselves with the absence of validation for central Protestant tents (most especially Sola Scriptura) in the historical Church? Most of the time, when I bring this up, the other side of the discussion seems rather disinterested. How can something like this not have immense ramifications on one’s view of this particular area of apologetics?
 
You won’t find me defending “Protestantism” at large. “Protestantism” doesn’t even agree with itself, so saying that it does or does not follow the Bible to the last letter would be internally inconsistent statements. Protestantism is ambiguous and the term is not used in the same way by any two individuals. However, to claim that Catholicism is some perfectly united religion where everyone agrees is absurd, as evidenced for example by Obama’s honoring at Notre Dame, or Catholic Bishops supporting gay/lesbian/abortion movements (Just ask Michael Voris). Any response of yours to that will, of course, be a no true Scotsman argument, so save us the trouble.
And here I thought that the first invokation of “no true Scotsman” on my OSAS thread would be from this side of the Tiber (specifically from me, it’s one of my favorite counterarguments)! I love it! I am a bit intrigued regarding how you will do so in response to one asserting that the existence of people dissenting from long-established Catholic belief from within Catholicism does not somehow create an internal faction any more than another flavor of sin. Perhaps you will be so kind as to enlighten me. An argument regarding logic may prove entertaining.

I might as well give up on anyone presenting affirmative evidence for the historical existence of OSAS, anyway, given the turnout. My prior assumption stands! No cars for you!
 
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