Can Baptist be a Catholic without the Mass?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Athanasiy
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
A

Athanasiy

Guest
I am the member of the Baptist Church for a 15 years.
I do not see the reason to live the Church, just because I am convinced that Catholic Church is the Only and Right.

I hope I can change somehow my Baptist Community, bringing there the Catholic Spirit.
 
I have to say I rather doubt that Baptists of any stripe are going to want to be more Catholic in their services, practices or beliefs. If you know the Catholic Church is true, then you need to become a Catholic. :yup:

It’s not as scary as you might think. You get used to the order of the Mass, and the Eucharist makes it all worthwhile. As for fellowship, once you enter the Church and get involved, you will make friends. Even in RCIA you will find fellowship that has the potential to last for as long as you are in that parish. So, come home to the Church and let the Baptists be Baptists. 🙂
 
I am the member of the Baptist Church for a 15 years.
I do not see the reason to live the Church, just because I am convinced that Catholic Church is the Only and Right.

I hope I can change somehow my Baptist Community, bringing there the Catholic Spirit.
Athanasiy,

Hello and welcome to Catholic Answers Forums. I hope you have a blessed and fruiful time here.

Your other respondent is correct, if you are convinced that the Catholic Church is the only and right Church, then you need to join the Catholic Church. I appreciate and understand your desire to bring a “Catholic Spirit” to your Baptist church community, but obedience to God should come first. If you are not obeying God, you will not have any success in bringing the Baptists and Catholics together because God will not bless your efforts.
  • Liberian
 
I have to say I rather doubt that Baptists of any stripe are going to want to be more Catholic in their services, practices or beliefs. If you know the Catholic Church is true, then you need to become a Catholic. :yup:

It’s not as scary as you might think. You get used to the order of the Mass, and the Eucharist makes it all worthwhile. As for fellowship, once you enter the Church and get involved, you will make friends. Even in RCIA you will find fellowship that has the potential to last for as long as you are in that parish. So, come home to the Church and let the Baptists be Baptists. 🙂
But the Baptists are Christians. And to be Catholic is simply to be fully Christian. “Let the Baptists be Baptists” implies that one of these two statements is incorrect. It is a fundamentally uncharitable statement. Never mind that it also contradicts the explicit teaching of the Pope, who has called for *corporate *rather than individual reunion.

I’m glad I don’t feel obliged to take on the task of Catholicizing the Baptists myself. But if someone feels that calling, I say God bless’em!

Edwin
 
But the Baptists are Christians. And to be Catholic is simply to be fully Christian. “Let the Baptists be Baptists” implies that one of these two statements is incorrect. It is a fundamentally uncharitable statement. Never mind that it also contradicts the explicit teaching of the Pope, who has called for *corporate *rather than individual reunion.

Edwin
Edwin, thank you for posting. I hope you don’t mind my asking, but you present a position I’ve often been puzzled about, particularly within my own family. My brother is a practicing baptist since remarrying outside the church after his divorce from his first wife.

You say 'to be Catholic is simply to be fully Christian."
You are correct in that it is to be FULLY Christian, but I can assure you, SIMPLE, it is not, elst there would not be so many Christian denominations who broke away from Catholicism because it was too difficult to stick with.

But my questions are:
Why would anyone want to ‘settle’ for being ‘partial’ christians when they could be ‘full’ christians?

To be fully Christian means believing in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist and consuming Him daily, if one prefers, or weekly as the Church prescribes. Knowing He is here, now, body-blood-soul-divinity, why/how can any Christian not be drawn to His presence, desiring to eat and drink as He invited us to do?

Thank you for your response, if you don’t mind taking the time to do so.
 
I hope I can change somehow my Baptist Community, bringing there the Catholic Spirit.
I failed to address this part of your original post earlier.

To bring the Catholic Spirit to your Baptist Community would be for you to bring the Real Presence to them.
The only way to do this is to bring them to the Real Presence by bringing them to Catholicism.

Our Pope instructs us to continue to invite our separated brethen to the table with us, to eat and drink of our Lord Jesus as one.

There is but one High Priest, Jesus, who, through His servants - priests ordained in line of the original apostles - is able to break THE bread of life at the ONE table so that all who believe in Him can be one with Him by consuming His body, blood, soul and divinity. All are invited to sit at that table but we cannot break the table to distribute it to other places to be served by others NOT of Christ. There is but One, Holy, Catholic Church that Jesus established to bring all souls into Him.
 
You say 'to be Catholic is simply to be fully Christian."
You are correct in that it is to be FULLY Christian, but I can assure you, SIMPLE, it is not, elst there would not be so many Christian denominations who broke away from Catholicism because it was too difficult to stick with.

But my questions are:
Why would anyone want to ‘settle’ for being ‘partial’ christians when they could be ‘full’ christians?

To be fully Christian means believing in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist and consuming Him daily, if one prefers, or weekly as the Church prescribes. Knowing He is here, now, body-blood-soul-divinity, why/how can any Christian not be drawn to His presence, desiring to eat and drink as He invited us to do?
Well, I do receive the Eucharist at least weekly in the Episcopal Church. (I know you guys don’t think we have valid orders, but obviously I disagree!)

My point is that Catholicity simply is the fullness of the Faith, however we define it. Protestants do not think that communion with Rome is necessary or sufficient for Catholicity. I think it is necessary but may not be sufficient. I.e., I am not convinced that simply by entering into the Roman Communion (what you would call the “Catholic Church”) as it currently exists one enters into possession of the fullness of the Faith. I think it may well be true, but I honestly don’t know. And since the Pope himself has called for corporate reunion in which we “separated brethren” retain our distinctive traditions (of course that means only insofar as they are compatible with orthodoxy), I consider myself justified (with many doubts and questions) in remaining Anglican and working for the reunion of Christians–not just of individual Christians but of styles of Christianity.

So why would I be a partial Christian rather than a full one? Because I’m not certain that Catholicism can be anything other than a work in progress before the return of Christ, and because this is the particular work in progress I’ve been handed–to reconcile evangelicallism with the fullness of the Christian tradition. “Becoming Catholic” in the sense you mean would be, for me, giving up real communion with fellow Christians for a theoretical Catholicity that clearly does not result in a practical enjoyment of the fullness of the Faith for most Catholics.

Edwin
 
Well, I do receive the Eucharist at least weekly in the Episcopal Church. (I know you guys don’t think we have valid orders, but obviously** I disagre**e!)

My point is that Catholicity simply is the fullness of the Faith, however we define it. Protestants do not think that communion with Rome is necessary or sufficient for Catholicity. I think it is necessary but may not be sufficient. I.e., I am not convinced that simply by entering into the Roman Communion (what you would call the “Catholic Church”) as it currently exists one enters into possession of the fullness of the Faith. I think it may well be true, but I honestly don’t know. And since the Pope himself has called for corporate reunion in which we “separated brethren” retain our distinctive traditions (of course that means only insofar as they are compatible with orthodoxy), I consider myself justified (with many doubts and questions) in remaining Anglican and working for the reunion of Christians–not just of individual Christians but of styles of Christianity.

So why would I be a partial Christian rather than a full one? Because** I’m not certain** that Catholicism can be anything other than a work in progress before the return of Christ, and because this is the particular work in progress I’ve been handed–to reconcile evangelicallism with the fullness of the Christian tradition. “Becoming Catholic” in the sense you mean would be, for me, giving up real communion with fellow Christians for a theoretical Catholicity that clearly does not result in a practical enjoyment of the fullness of the Faith for most Catholics.

Edwin
There’s a lot of ‘thinking’ in that response. I can remember defending my positions that way in the past, but I don’t remember when I stopped. I do recall it was after resigning myself to what the Catholic church teaches as explained by the Hahns, Steven Ray and Fr. Corapi. Hearing and reading their works, their explanations of WHY Catholics believe what they believe, their ability to show - through scripture and history - that the Church IS the One, Holy, Catholic church and has remained true all these years (including through some of our darkest times) affected me.

My mind, my reason, could not keep up or surpass their extensive research and personal faith journeys which obviously were gifts from the Holy Spirit. Suddenly I felt quite small in the grand scheme of things. I recognized the pride and stubborness and arrogance in the arguments I would wage about articial birth control, chastity, abortion, domestic partnerships for homosexuals, and even the right to ‘pull the plug’ at the patient’s bidding.

The Hahns, Steve Ray and Corapi touch upon those subjects but as part of the greater lesson being taught about God’s love for mankind and His call for each and every one of us. They show how Jesus gave us the Catholic church to bring all souls to Him and they break it down so clearly that there really was no argument for me anymore.

Once I resigned myself to the authority of the Church through the grace of God and the guidance of the Holy Spirit I was left to obey, respectfully, until such time as the Spirit would deem it time to reveal to me the ‘why’. So even though I didn’t know the logical whys I found myself defending the church’s positions on those matters I used to argue against. Sometimes the Spirit led me to materials which satisfied my intellect and reason so that I could better express my arguments in defense of the church, but mostly the Spirit just kept putting the image of Christ before me - particularly Jesus on the cross. It is from my love for Him, my immense gratitude to Him, that I defend the Church’s positions for she is His bride and He would not lead her astray.

Jesus has but one bride. As close as any ‘partial’ christian denomination can come, they will never be His bride, and certainly they cannot consider themselves His mistresses.

“Styles” of Christianity is not the same as calling for our separated bretheren to return home to eat of the same bread and drink of the same wine which becomes Christ Himself. “Styles” may pertain to what clothing one wears when they come to the table, what perfumes, what songs, what languages, what gifts to bring and so forth…but still the christians must first COME. That is the evangelization which the Pope calls for…speaking the truth, inviting all to come to the table, bringing with them their ‘style’ so as to make the one family more complete in its diversity.
 
I am the member of the Baptist Church for a 15 years.
I do not see the reason to live the Church, just because I am convinced that Catholic Church is the Only and Right.

I hope I can change somehow my Baptist Community, bringing there the Catholic Spirit.
*Ecumenism is certainly a slow process, at times perhaps even discouraging when one gives in to the temptation to “hear” and not to “listen,” to say half-truths, instead of having the courage to proclaim them. It is not easy to emerge from “comfortable deafness,” as if the unaltered Gospel did not have the capacity to re-flower, reaffirming itself as providential leaven of conversion and spiritual renewal for each one of us. - Pope Benedict XVI

*Are you in your own zone of “comfortable deafness?” What’s your strategy to evangelize your Baptist brethren which utters half-truths in order to justify their division from the only church Christ gave to humanity? No matter how much *“Catholic spirit” *you succeed in bringing, you perpetuate their denial of the sacraments, most importantly, Eucharist. Are you doing them a favor by supporting their unbelief, especially if you know the truth?
 
But the Baptists are Christians. And to be Catholic is simply to be fully Christian. “Let the Baptists be Baptists” implies that one of these two statements is incorrect. It is a fundamentally uncharitable statement. Never mind that it also contradicts the explicit teaching of the Pope, who has called for *corporate *rather than individual reunion.
Since you apparently missed my point, I will make it clearer: The OP’s desire to bring Catholicism into his Baptist communion is admirable, but not very likely. So, if he cannot do that, he should let them be what they want to be, Baptist, and enter the Church himself. I would have thought that was simple enough for anyone to grasp.

As for “corporate” reunion, that is the ideal, surely. But, if it cannot be it should hold no individual back from entering the fullness of the faith within the Catholic Church.
I’m glad I don’t feel obliged to take on the task of Catholicizing the Baptists myself. But if someone feels that calling, I say God bless’em!
I’m sure the Baptists are just as glad. 😛
 
Athanasiy,

Hello and welcome to Catholic Answers Forums. I hope you have a blessed and fruiful time here.

Your other respondent is correct, if you are convinced that the Catholic Church is the only and right Church, then you need to join the Catholic Church. I appreciate and understand your desire to bring a “Catholic Spirit” to your Baptist church community, but obedience to God should come first. If you are not obeying God, you will not have any success in bringing the Baptists and Catholics together because God will not bless your efforts.
  • Liberian
As a convert myself, I completely agree with Liberian
 
Can Baptist be the Secret Catholic ?
I know the Baptists need the change for the better as well !

-Some of us think that religion has nothing to do with Politics.
-Our libraries are full with Calvinistic books and Seminars.
-Advises of contraception are considered as normal among young families.
-We are possessed with a Book Worship, but we more believe in the Science not in the Book !
-Some Youth read the Bible for the years and among them there are those who are in the depression of not being the ‘’Chosen Ones’’

I love and respect Jewish people but we are just the patriots of Israel , why also not to learn how to be the Patriots of our own nation and country ?
Its time to build the good relationship with other confessions at least with mutual charity ministries, not just to be in the hostility to those who don’t belong to the ‘’ Separate Ones ‘’

I feel , I can be very helpful in my Church, because I am a preacher .

What does it mean to be the Secret Catholic ?
I think in my case I shall be more like pretender ? No ?
 
To bring the Catholic Spirit to your Baptist Community would be for you to bring the Real Presence to them.
The only way to do this is to bring them to the Real Presence by bringing them to Catholicism.

Our Pope instructs us to continue to invite our separated brethen to the table with us, to eat and drink of our Lord Jesus as one.
As a former baptist come Home I have to say “Amen”!

I thought about the “secret Catholic” thing. Why not? Infiltration, intrigue, secretly bringing others to full communion…the life of a spy.:eek:

Now to reality. The question would eventually come in that situation: If one were to think the Catholic Church is the Church Christ established and not the Baptist, then why are they still Baptist and not Catholic? Besides, a person would not be fully Catholic until confirmed into the Catholic faith by the Church. It would be like someone just calling themself an electrician, but never receiving the license to make it a reality.
 
Hello and Welcome!

In regard to your post, what do you mean that the Catholic Church is the only and right one? If you mean that it is truly the Church which was instituted by Christ and the one, true body of Christ, why would you decide to purposely stay from Him? Isn’t that denying Christ in a way?

I think you know the answer to your question already;). May God continue to bless you and watch over you, whatever your decision.

Lord be with you,

Kelly
 
Can Baptist be the Secret Catholic ?
Deceit is wrong, period. This is the struggle I face as well. I teach in an evangelical college in the U.S., and every day I have to decide just how to phrase what I believe so as to avoid dishonesty and at the same time not court unnecessary controversy.

It’s interesting that you say that Ukrainian Baptists are being taken over by Calvinism. I remember a Wesleyan Holiness missionary in Kiev telling me that in 1996. I thought it might just be paranoid Holiness hype, but it didn’t surprise me that U.S. Baptists (most of whom are not really Calvinistic, but some are, and most at least believe in eternal security which you guys historically haven’t) were gaining a greater and greater influence. It’s sad. I’ve admired the more Anabaptist tone of Baptists in the former Communist world (including the pacifism that you have problems with), and I’d hate to see them become clones of Southern Baptists!

In Christ,

Edwin
 
I am from the Ukraine.
No, the Arminianism not the Calvinism is the Official Teaching.
But the most of the literature and the Seminars Projects we get from abroad are Calvinistic.
Only the Youth Independent Churches, I can not get what Teaching they follow.
Sometimes communicating with young people you can hear that:
  • If you are not sure that you are saved then you are not saved,
    or you can hear sometimes ;
    -’’ Brothers and Sisters . We are saved but among us there are those who are not saved. So check our hearts , do we belong to the saved ones ?’’
  • Agitation and holiness are the evident sign of being born again,
    If the temperature of my Spirituality is not fit to be Born Again then I must doubt if I belong to the ‘‘Chosen Ones’’.
I think both doctrines are not healthy.
It brings traumas to the young people ,especially those whose parents are not Christians and who under the temptations of youth and frequent depressions starting to believe that they belong not the Chosen Ones.

Predominantly our Union follows the Teachings of Pashkov,
and Arminianism is the Official Doctrine.
 
I don’t know the situation in the Ukraine, but I was a Baptist for years and became convinced that the Catholic church was founded by Christ and preserves the fullness of the faith – leaving me no choice but to become Catholic, out of obedience and for other reasons.

After the OP has done so, and attended mass at least once a week (or as often as possible if you are in a community where that is not always possible as happens in some parts of the world), you could then perhaps choose to meet and pray with your Baptist friends. But don’t ever allow yourself to think that a Baptist service can take the place of mass, because you need mass. Only thus strengthened and instructed can you be of any help to the Baptist community you wish to help.
 
Athanasiy,

one point that has not yet been adressed here: If you have become convinced that the Catholic Church is the True Church of Christ, but refuse to enter it (for whatever motive) you are putting your soul into grave danger! (That’s what “Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus” - Outside the Church there is no salvation - means.)

Also, Edwin is right: deceit is just wrong. Besides, you will be helping no-one by trying to be a crypto-Catholic among Baptists, but rather harming yourself (see above), the Catholic Church (which will then be seen as deceitful by your Baptist friends) and your Baptist community as well (sowing mistrust and discord).

We as Christians are called to witness to the Truth (martyria). This also includes witnessing to our fellow Christians if we have understood the Truth. Maybe your decision to convert, if announced openly - while surely also resulting in sadness or even anger - may have just the beneficial results you want for some of your fellow Baptists?

You wrote that you were also a preacher: may it be possible to announce your decision and the reasons for it at a church meeting? Or in written form?

Here is an example for such a letter by an American Anglican priest who became Catholic.

God bless you on your journey! Keep us updated!
 
I am from the Ukraine.
No, the Arminianism not the Calvinism is the Official Teaching.
But the most of the literature and the Seminars Projects we get from abroad are Calvinistic.
Right–as I said, I saw the beginnings of that back in the 90s. I tried to do what I could support my Romanian evangelical friends in resisting these trends. But given how numerous and rich the Southern Baptists are, it’s a tough fight. (Actually I spent a lot of my time in Romania with the “Christians according to the Gospel”–basically the Plymouth Brethren. With the Iron Curtain down, they were exposed to the Western PBs who believed in eternal security and didn’t let women pray in public–two points on which I decidedly sided with the Romanians!)

Have you (plural) considered trying to forge links with other “Baptistic” groups in the West? I think one of the common mistakes Eastern European/former USSR Baptists make is to assume that Western “Baptists” are the closest counterparts. Actually some other groups may be healthier influences–Mennonites for one, Christian Churches and Churches of Christ for another.

Is your Union the official, registered Baptist Union?

I briefly visited a Baptist church in Kiev in 1996, but since I don’t know Ukrainian or Russian all I got out of it was the beautiful singing!

If you do become Catholic, I hope you will become Ukrainian, Byzantine-Rite Catholic, since that is your proper tradition. Latin-Rite Catholicism should not be promulgated in historically Eastern-Rite areas.

Have you considered the Orthodox?

Edwin
 
P.S.

What can you tell me about Pashkov? I’m afraid I’ve never heard of this person.

Edwin
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top