Can Baptist be a Catholic without the Mass?

[Athanasiy]

Pashkov as I know is the Pioneer of the Russian Baptists.
He was one of the originators of the Baptists Movement among the Russians.

The English Baptists Missionaries converted the couple of noble Families in Saint- Piterburg.
By the Influence of English Preacher the Lord Redstock , Pashkov was one of those converted.
He was one of the richest people in Russia.
After Conversion his huge house was transformed to the First Evangelical Church in Russia.
He was baptized in 1882 by the George Muller.
His name ( he was the successful military before) and activity in charity did not help him to avoid the persecution.
He was exiled from Russia and ended his life in Rome.
He left some writings , and those writings were considered as an authoritative for Church Statute.
The sources of his inspiration were as I suppose the works of
Redstock (1833-1913).
The Lord Redstock was the follower of John Smith Teaching.

 

[Athanasiy]

Right–as I said, I saw the beginnings of that back in the 90s. I tried to do what I could support my Romanian evangelical friends in resisting these trends. But given how numerous and rich the Southern Baptists are, it’s a tough fight. (Actually I spent a lot of my time in Romania with the “Christians according to the Gospel”–basically the Plymouth Brethren. With the Iron Curtain down, they were exposed to the Western PBs who believed in eternal security and didn’t let women pray in public–two points on which I decidedly sided with the Romanians!)

Have you (plural) considered trying to forge links with other “Baptistic” groups in the West? I think one of the common mistakes Eastern European/former USSR Baptists make is to assume that Western “Baptists” are the closest counterparts. Actually some other groups may be healthier influences–Mennonites for one, Christian Churches and Churches of Christ for another.

Is your Union the official, registered Baptist Union?

I briefly visited a Baptist church in Kiev in 1996, but since I don’t know Ukrainian or Russian all I got out of it was the beautiful singing!

If you do become Catholic, I hope you will become Ukrainian, Byzantine-Rite Catholic, since that is your proper tradition. Latin-Rite Catholicism should not be promulgated in historically Eastern-Rite areas.

Have you considered the Orthodox?

Edwin

Yes. We are the members of the Union.
I think that we have a lot to learn from the Western Christians.
But there are some changes hear too.
The covering for the woman is not obligatory already, excommunication reasons are not as strict as before, the disciplinary acts are not for long time any more, the different attitude towards science and even Politics, though there is no unity in the question of Christian and Politics.
The Baptists have the couple of Seminaries schools , and also their own teachers.
The governor of Kiev is the member of the Charismatic Church. The ex-chief of the SBU was a Baptist.
He is now the Deputy of the strong Political Party.
Actually what do you think of the Baptists in the Politics in the Ukraine ? I think it should be for the better .
Why the Byzantine-Rite Catholicism is more preferable for the Ukrainian than Latin Catholicism ?
I was thinking about that also. Historically Byzantine-Rite is more Ukrainian.
Thank You.

 

[Contarini]

The governor of Kiev is the member of the Charismatic Church. The ex-chief of the SBU was a Baptist.

What’s the SBU?

Actually what do you think of the Baptists in the Politics in the Ukraine ? I think it should be for the better .

I don’t have strong opinions, because I don’t know enough. I only visited Ukraine once, in 1996. I would love to go again some day. I have a lot more experience of Romania and Moldova, and my mother spends a lot of time in Russia (my family publish devotional books and they are being translated into Russian).

Why the Byzantine-Rite Catholicism is more preferable for the Ukrainian than Latin Catholicism ?
I was thinking about that also. Historically Byzantine-Rite is more Ukrainian.

Exactly. Christianity took different forms in different regions according to the local cultural traditions and/or the particular church that did the evangelizing. The Byzantine tradition is your tradition. Also, if Catholicism really is the true universal Church then it must be able to exist in multiple forms, and the recent Popes have really emphasized this. The eastern rites of Catholicism are “endangered species” in a way and the Vatican has really encouraged their preservation–but most people identify “Catholicism” with the Latin Church and that’s a dynamic that’s hard to reverse.

It’s none of my business, really, since I’m an Anglican!

I wish you well, brother. I know what you must be going through as a Baptist questioning your own tradition. I have no great wisdom to offer since I still struggle with my own stance.

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Pashkov as I know is the Pioneer of the Russian Baptists.
He was one of the originators of the Baptists Movement among the Russians.

The English Baptists Missionaries converted the couple of noble Families in Saint- Piterburg.
By the Influence of English Preacher the Lord Redstock , Pashkov was one of those converted.

OK! I’m sure I’ve heard the name but had forgotten it. I know about Lord Radstock–in fact my grandmother wrote about him in one of her books (also about Basil Malov, who was another pioneer of early Russian evangelicalism).

He was one of the richest people in Russia.
After Conversion his huge house was transformed to the First Evangelical Church in Russia.

I believe I’ve seen it–I know I visited one of the oldest evangelical churches in St. Petersburg in 1997, but it may have been the second one.

Edwin

 

[guanophore]

But the Baptists are Christians. And to be Catholic is simply to be fully Christian. “Let the Baptists be Baptists” implies that one of these two statements is incorrect. It is a fundamentally uncharitable statement. Never mind that it also contradicts the explicit teaching of the Pope, who has called for *corporate *rather than individual reunion.

I’m glad I don’t feel obliged to take on the task of Catholicizing the Baptists myself. But if someone feels that calling, I say God bless’em!

Edwin

He should certainly not wait until he can bring his congregation along with him. Although his evangelical zeal is admirable, evangelism works best from a firm foundation. Also, if he has been a Baptist for 15 years, his thinking is much more infused with protestantism than he may realize. He will be much better equipped to fulfill his goal if he puts himself into study and sacrament. Ever chased rabbits? It is better, when doing so, to chase one at a time.

 

[Athanasiy]

Yes I am definitely have not just the Evangelical Education but Evangelical Genetics already.

 

[Bennie_P]

I am the member of the Baptist Church for a 15 years.
I do not see the reason to live the Church, just because I am convinced that Catholic Church is the Only and Right.

I hope I can change somehow my Baptist Community, bringing there the Catholic Spirit.

Myself I was raised as a Baptist and married a Byzantine Catholic. After 18 years of going to Mass and Baptist services, my pastor at the Baptist Church suggested I explore the Catholic faith more, and quit trying to convert my wife, for he said that Catholics are Christians also! This was a shock to me, for other Baptist Churches I had been associated with were very anti-Catholic. When I decided to go into full communion in the Church, many of my non-Catholic friends were set back a bit. Now I only attend Mass on Sundays(and other days of the week also) for the worship at Baptist Churches just don’t feed me spiritually like they once did.

I too, being raised an envangelical have the envangelist “gene” and I have this need to tell all my separated brothers and sisters about the fullness I have found. But I know that I cannot do that by being a Baptist. I haven’t cut my ties with my old freinds and even meet outside of Church with many of them on a regular basis and many them have become very interested in my journey into the fullness of the Church. I don’t have to be secretive and my life is my witness. It is more honest to me to live out my faith as a Catholic in the Church and still treat my brethren outside of the Catholic Church with love and respect. I have hope that they too will take the journey home, but if I tried to do it by staying a Baptist, I probly would do more harm then Good.

There are many things that influenced me into making the choice to come into full communion, but one of the things that was the flash of light was reading over and over John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.” NIV and John 6:65 “He went on to say, ‘this is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him’” I read these two verses over and over for a period of weeks, I was seeing them as the reason why my wife was not seeing things my way. But if you notice these verses sandwich in the discourse on the the real presence. It dawned on me that I wouldn’t find that in a Baptist Church, but only in the Catholic Church. Last Easter Vigil I was accepted into full-communion in the Church of Rome.

for more information on the Byzantine Rite check out byzantines.net/

I might have come into the Church under that Rite if there were Byzantine Churchs in my area, (I was married in that Rite and my children were initiated into the Church in the Byzantine Rite), but my desire for the Eucharist was too strong to wait.

To me it all has to do with trying to follow God’s will in my life and He gave me the grace to see things a little more clearly as I attempt to be in His will.

May Christ be your teacher,
Bennie P ><>

 

[Athanasiy]

Yesterday I visited the Byzantine Church, there was the’’ Tourines Coat’’ there.

My mother is going there for the last four months.
And takes part in the Eucharist already.
She says that she finally has found her Home already.
Does she need to be Baptized and confirm her membership ?

In my case it also much depends from the future wife.
Though I do not have one yet.

 

[Bennie_P]

Yesterday I visited the Byzantine Church, there was the’’ Tourines Coat’’ there.

My mother is going there for the last four months.
And takes part in the Eucharist already.
She says that she finally has found her Home already.
Does she need to be Baptized and confirm her membership ?

In my case it also much depends from the future wife.
Though I do not have one yet.

Here send your questions to greengreg@yahoo.com they will be able to answer your questions better then I and check out byzantines.net

Let Christ be your teacher,
Bennie P ><>

 

[guanophore]

Yesterday I visited the Byzantine Church, there was the’’ Tourines Coat’’ there.

My mother is going there for the last four months.
And takes part in the Eucharist already.
She says that she finally has found her Home already.
Does she need to be Baptized and confirm her membership ?

In my case it also much depends from the future wife.
Though I do not have one yet.

I am sorry to be so ignorant, but I am unable to find this word. what is a Tourines Coat?

 

[Athanasiy]

Its a coat of Christ.
Its called Tourines because it was , in the Italian City Tourine.

They say there are about 7 copies left.
I am not sure of that.

I thought you know about it.
I think many years ago , I heard about it.
That it was explored by Scientists and proved as valid .

 

[Athanasiy]

I have to say I rather doubt that Baptists of any stripe are going to want to be more Catholic in their services, practices or beliefs. If you know the Catholic Church is true, then you need to become a Catholic. :yup:

It’s not as scary as you might think. You get used to the order of the Mass, and the Eucharist makes it all worthwhile. As for fellowship, once you enter the Church and get involved, you will make friends. Even in RCIA you will find fellowship that has the potential to last for as long as you are in that parish. So, come home to the Church and let the Baptists be Baptists.

But hear in the Baptists congregation I can preach.
You know, the preaching activity is a good ministry.
We have a huge congregation 1300 people each Sunday.
I can preach twice a month.
At the moment , I have found the temporary solution.
I go to the both Catholic and Baptist Service.
I know that my conservative Brothers Council will not justify it later.

We are the Baptists Congregation , who lives as a family.
The congregation who is so dependent from the Church Brothers Counsel , so dependent on the Eschatological Sermons about the end of the world soon,
that some of us do not want much from this life.
We are waiting the second coming, every body says soon, very soon, the Christ is coming, get ready.
Some of my young friends are so dependent on the local church, that they are not able to make their own decisions to move somewhere.
We are waiting the second coming, which is coming very soon.

Hear in the Baptists congregation I can preach.
You know, the preaching activity is a good ministry.
We have a huge congregation 1300 people each Sunday.
I can preach, at least twice a month.
At the moment , I have found the temporary solution.
I go to the both Catholic and Baptist Services.
I know that my conservative Brothers Council will not justify it later.
But I definitely feel more and more Catholic in my heart.

But I heard about the Catholic-Pentecostal Movement in America,
so it is possible then to unite the Confessions in this way anyhow?
I personally believe that Baptists have what the Catholics even can learn , the Catholics have what the Baptists must to learn,
( but never will learn unfortunately).
My advisers are right , its not possible to change the Baptists.

 

[Athanasiy]

I have to say I rather doubt that Baptists of any stripe are going to want to be more Catholic in their services, practices or beliefs. If you know the Catholic Church is true, then you need to become a Catholic. :yup:

It’s not as scary as you might think. You get used to the order of the Mass, and the Eucharist makes it all worthwhile. As for fellowship, once you enter the Church and get involved, you will make friends. Even in RCIA you will find fellowship that has the potential to last for as long as you are in that parish. So, come home to the Church and let the Baptists be Baptists.

We are the Baptists Congregation , who lives as a family.
The congregation who is so dependent from the Church Brothers Counsel , so dependent on the Eschatological Sermons about the end of the world soon,
that some of us do not want much from this life.
We are waiting the second coming, every body says soon, very soon, the Christ is coming, get ready.
Some of my young friends are so dependent on the local church, that they are not able to make their own decisions to move somewhere.
We are waiting the second coming, which is coming very soon.

Hear in the Baptists congregation I can preach.
You know, the preaching activity is a good ministry.
We have a huge congregation 1300 people each Sunday.
I can preach, at least twice a month.
At the moment , I have found the temporary solution.
I go to the both Catholic and Baptist Services.
I know that my conservative Brothers Council will not justify it later.
But I definitely feel more and more Catholic in my heart.

But I heard about the Catholic-Pentecostal Movement in America,
so it is possible then to unite the Confessions in this way anyhow?
I personally believe that Baptists have what the Catholics even can learn , the Catholics have what the Baptists must to learn,
( but never will learn unfortunately).
My advisers are right , its not possible to change the Baptists.

 

[Athanasiy]

In my opinion, the Authoritarianism in the Baptist Churches has very negative consequences.
The ways how the confessions are practicing in the Baptist Churches hear,
the ways how the Church-Police(Brothers Council) inquires about the sins of the church members ;
I think these methods are able not only to destroy and traumatize the families,but also this customs bring -Pharisaism , Hypocrisy ,
hidden- unconfessed sins, and the damaged mentality of the people
who are unable to depend upon God without depending on Brothers Council decisions.

And the thing is, that nothing is going change.

 

[Athanasiy]

In my opinion, the Authoritarianism in the Baptist Churches has very negative consequences.
The ways how the confessions are practicing in the Baptist Churches hear,
the ways how the Church-Police(Brothers Council) inquires about the sins of the church members ;
I think these methods are able not only to destroy and traumatize the families,but also this customs bring -Pharisaism , Hypocrisy ,
hidden- unconfessed sins, and the damaged mentality of the people
who are unable to depend upon God without depending on Brothers Council decisions.

And the thing is, that nothing is going to change.