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mardukm
Guest
I believe brother Zekariya was referring to the idea that attending the Mass is an obligation-- not that one should not attend Mass.
Blessings,
Marduk
Blessings,
Marduk
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Faithful Eastern Catholics attend the Divine Liturgy, however, it is foreign to our Eastern tradition to speak of “obligations”. This is a pastoral matter. In the Eastern tradition, the parish priest is very much involved in our lives (he can refuse us Communion if he thinks it best for our souls). He knows his flock and acts in her best interest.
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Cavaradossi
Guest
That is definitely false. I have communed in Russian Churches.
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Cavaradossi
Guest
If you can, you might consider flipping the order. Go to vespers and then a RC mass in the morning. It makes sense to maintain a more proper ordering of the services than to wind up at what will amount to two Eucharistic liturgies in one liturgical day.
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Wandile
Guest
Tha fact of the matter is you are obliged to go to church on Sundays or the preceding day before if your situation allows you to, as the catechism states. This true in the east and the west. Now choosing a schismatic church over a church in communion with you is wrong on all accounts. As Catholics we belong to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. A such it is sinful (punishment of mortal sin) for you to commune at a church not I’m communion with the Church of Christ if a church in communion with you is available for you to attend atFaithful Eastern Catholics attend the Divine Liturgy, however, it is foreign to our Eastern tradition to speak of “obligations”. This is a pastoral matter. In the Eastern tradition, the parish priest is very much involved in our lives (he can refuse us Communion if he thinks it best for our souls). He knows his flock and acts in her best interest.
This whole “its not done like this in the east” does not extend to allowing you to commune with a church in schism with you under normal circumstances. The catechism refers to all catholics, not just western ones.
This past Sunday the bishop had his annual Bishops Mass where all the priests and parishioners were invited to celebrate at his Cathedral. As such there was no mass at my local church. However I went to the Maronite church 20 minutes away from me as opposed to the local Russian Orthodox Church which is a 5 minute drive away.
The catechism uses language foreign to the East. We do not have the Western concept of obligations. Vatican II says that the Eastern Churches are to preserve their traditions full and entire. Obligations are not our tradition regardless as to what Western theologians say.
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RyanBlack
Guest
While this does not address the situation of whether participation in an Orthodox Divine Liturgy can be substituted for participation in a Catholic Divine Liturgy or Mass, it is actually not the case that all Eastern Catholics are bound to participate specifically in Divine Liturgy or Mass. Eastern Catholic canon law has a provision for the obligation being satisfied by participation in the “divine praises,” when such participation is “according to the prescriptions or legitimate customs of their own Church sui iuris.” In other words, where the customs or particular law of an Eastern Catholic’s own particular Church so specifies, the Sunday obligation is satisfied by participating in Vespers or Matins.
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MorEphrem
Guest
I feel a lot of Latins are bringing in their hearsay into this thread… The bit about not having permission to be even communed in Orthodox Churches is nonsense. The Syriac and Armenian Orthodox (both OO) communed well disposed Catholics, or at least well disposed Oriental Catholics.
Incorrect, hence why we have been exhorted to write our own catechisms. We are not bound by the Latin canons because those are disciplines put in force by the authority of your own episcopates. Even your reference to not fulfilling the obligation under pain of mortal sin is foreign terminology to the East.
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malphono
Guest
True enough, but at the risk of repeating something I’ve said before in various other threads, under what authority does the CCEO exist? Or, for that matter, even so-called Particular Law? Now let me see …
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PennyinCanada
Guest
Personally, if there was no Eastern Church available to me, I would attend a Divine Liturgy at the Orthodox and not receive communion, but do a spiritual communion. I would also pray for the Pope at the places where I usually would. Although man has drawn a line in the sand, I don’t think that God does, and that He is not happy with the separation. There are men in authority that will answer to this, but me, a little lamb who wishes to pray the Divine Liturgy, will be in a safe harbour.
That said, over the decades of being in the Church, I have been scandalized more than I can say at what goes on in RC churches I’ve visited. This makes me very sad, and if I had to go to a Mass that caused me grief, I would offer it up. However, I don’t want to become accustomed to such scandals by putting myself into that situation every Sunday. It would bring me to lukewarmness about the faith.
I know some RC folks who would not consider attending a Divine Liturgy because it is too ‘foreign’ to them. I would like the same consideration to stay with the Divine Liturgy, even if it means visiting my brothers and sisters in our Sister Churches.
That said, over the decades of being in the Church, I have been scandalized more than I can say at what goes on in RC churches I’ve visited. This makes me very sad, and if I had to go to a Mass that caused me grief, I would offer it up. However, I don’t want to become accustomed to such scandals by putting myself into that situation every Sunday. It would bring me to lukewarmness about the faith.
I know some RC folks who would not consider attending a Divine Liturgy because it is too ‘foreign’ to them. I would like the same consideration to stay with the Divine Liturgy, even if it means visiting my brothers and sisters in our Sister Churches.
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Wandile
Guest
The Catechism of the Catholic Church is for the entire Catholic Church East and West (and it was worked on by Bishops and scholars of both West and East). It is the fruit of the Second Vatican Council.
Other Catechisms are for the particular Church etc in addition to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. They are not going to conflict in areas of Doctrine --but will wonderfully make more manifest the particular traditions etc of the particular catholic Church they are come from.
Like in the USA they have the one from the United States Bishops Conference.
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VicFerrari
Guest
Thanks for your comments. You have to keep in mind that there are a lot of “cookbook Catholics” in this world. They read what’s prescribed on a source like EWTN and that’s about as deep as they go. When they try to deal with the intricacies of the Eastern half of the Church they often end up way out of their depth.
On the other hand, EC’s are often their own worst enemies. They don’t disseminate information very well. Rather than explain they often discount others in my experience.
Yes and no. The EC’s have their own Code of Canons but the CCC is for the entire Church. Every church/tradition within the Church is encouraged to develop their own teaching catechism but it may not contravene the CCC.
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VicFerrari
Guest
Hardly!
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VicFerrari
Guest
Russian Catholic or RO churches?
RO communion is not open to Catholics – and some members of Orthodoxy.
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Cavaradossi
Guest
Russian Orthodox, of course. I am an Orthodox Christian, and I have never been turned down for communion at a Russian parish, so long as I have notified the priest there ahead of time that I have recently been to confession, and that I have adequately prepared myself for receiving communion. So long as one is an Orthodox Christian, prepared to receive communion (through keeping one’s fast and rule of prayer), a member of a so-called ‘canonical church,’ and in good standing with his own bishop, there should be no issue with communing in a Russian Church.
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VicFerrari
Guest
This discussion is not about individual perceptions about what takes place in individual Latin Rite parishes, although some continue to try it make it about that. I suspect in all reality, actual “scandals” are extremely rare where you live in Latine Rite parishes.
Your “too foreign” argument doesn’t amount to anything in this context.
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VicFerrari
Guest
You’re right, my sentence was incomplete. The ROC does not allow Orthodox Christians of SOME Orthodox state churches to receive their communion.
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malphono
Guest
itself imposed by Rome … so whose is it really?
Roma locuta. Causa finita.
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Cavaradossi
Guest
The Russian Orthodox Church will allow the laity of different local Churches to commune, so long as they are not considered schismatic (like say an Old Calendarist Synod in Resistance). One is not refused communion on the basis of his belonging to a particular state church, but rather on the basis of belonging to a Church which is in schism. So long as a member of the laity falls under the jurisdiction one of the 15 (de facto) autocephalous Churches (often also called ‘canonical churches’), he can commune with the Russians.
Typical Latin theology says that popes can trump any disciplinary practices of the Church.
Here you go:“…for it is the mind of the Catholic Church that each individual Church or Rite should retain its traditions whole and entire and likewise that it should adapt its way of life to the different needs of time and place.” - Pope Paul VI, Vatican II, ORIENTALIUM ECCLESIARUM
Source: vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_orientalium-ecclesiarum_en.html
We do not have obligations in our Eastern traditions. I will stick with Pope Paul VI and Vatican II on this one.
It does not matter who worked on the CCC, it is full of latinizations and Eastern Catholics are to be Eastern, not Western. 
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