Hi!All this is fine and I certainly agree with it - however it doesn’t say anything about whether or not a Pope can change a teaching - what you posted just assumes that this isn’t the case.
The question is whether or not a teaching can be changed. The answer is it cannot be changed - however, that being said, is this what is being done? It seems to me we are not sure. If he is not then there is no problem but if he is, as the dubia cardinals seem to think, then there is a big problem.
Hi!The Catholic Church believes that it is guided by the Holy Spirit, and that it is protected from definitively teaching error on matters of faith and morals. According to the Church, the Holy Spirit reveals God’s truth through sacred scripture and sacred tradition. This is the definition of “Catholic teaching” from wikipedia.
I am asking neither. I want people to make an informed decision by paying attention and educating themselves with facts. People will believe what they want but at least we can help them make an informed decision.Hi!
…are you asking what should Catholics do or are you asking what should the Pope do?
No amount of explanation can counter Jesus’s Teachings; no amount of garnish can make unrighteousness palatable to Yahweh God.
Christians who believe that the Demands of God’s Justice (Commandments) change with time are not truly practicing Christians… at best they are ignorant and plastic (superficial) and at worst they are not in Fellowship with Christ (St. Matthew 7:21-23).
Maran atha!
Angel
Do you want to accuse reputable news organizations of lying - posting false news? There is a lot of evidence to support what I said - I have plenty of news links if you care to be educated. Or is there some massive satanic conspiracy against Pope Francis? Or perhaps there are many who will defend Christs’ teachings and official catholic doctrine.Hi!
'K… but what is your argument? Do you have actual proof that the Church’s Teaching is being violated or are you going from the rumor mills in the media?
Maran atha!
Angel
They don’t seem to care - understand that there are some cardinals, bishops, and priests that support this new take on God’s mercy and many others have been silent - I suppose hoping all this get resolved somehow. The dubia cardinals will make a formal correction and if he doesn’t respond to that then we will have a formal schism - which is already informal but we are all hoping that the pope will call all clergy back to obedience of official catholic teaching. Remember Cardinal Burke is a canon lawyer so he knows what he is doing.Hi!
…yet, how can this be resolved if not by Pope Francis’s interaction?
It is my understanding that he let the dogs out… when news report that Bishops and Priests are Giving the Sacraments to openly known adulterers, fornicators, and homosexuals, does that not open the eyes (and ears) of those at the Vatican?
Maran atha!
Angel
Hi, USMC!The amount of disrespect shown to our holy father, on this forum and in this post is staggering. You don’t have to agree with any pope when it comes to his personal thoughts and ideas, but you do have to respect him. He was chosen by the Holy Spirit, not anyone else.
I shall not only pray for our holy father today, but you as well…
(St. James 4:4)4 You adulterous people,[a] don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
What is going on is clearly in conflict with official catholic teaching. The pope knows he cannot change official teaching so it seems that, with the help of those who agree with him, he is getting it done in at least some of the dioceses. I don’t think this has ever happened before in the history of our church. I don’t believe there is canon law to cover such a situation - we have what I posted above from vat 1 and 2 and what pope benedict has said on the subject. It’s enough to say that this mess is not the work of the Holy Spirit.Hi, Richard!
…but what are the Doctrines and Dogmas of the Church… that is what is being set on their heads (literally on the heads of the Bishops and Priest who present, uphold or circumvent the Church’s Teaching).
So while the average Catholic may be subscribing to what the CCC and other Catholic Documents uphold as True Faith, what if the Bishops (which includes the Pope) depart from such Teaching?
…and, according to what is being claimed in the media, are they not?
Maran atha!
Angel
Hi!I am not showing any disrespect at all - you make it sound like to discuss this situation is automatically disrespectful to our Pope. I believe that our allegiance is to Christ and his church and not to any human. All healthy and constructive conversation should be welcome and we need to give respect and weight to those who have gone before us. This teaching has been challenged no less than 4 time previously and has been upheld every time. You call it his personal thoughts and ideas - perhaps they were to begin with but others have taken these thoughts and ideas and implemented them - which seems to be contrary to official Catholic teaching. It seems to me what our Pope needs to do is to call all Cardinals, Bishops, and Priests in obedience back to official teaching on this point and put an end to it’s implementation.
Hi, Joe!In my lifetime, I have seen teachings of the Church, doctrines, dogmas, traditions, held by the Church, changed. It happens often. I don’t see how anyone can say categorically, a teaching cannot be changed. The words of Christ, no, infallibly proclaimed dogma/doctrine, no. But teachings, yes, definitely.
Case in point. In my youth it was a teaching of the church that suicide was a mortal sin. That a person who committed suicide could not be given a burial mass service, no be interred in sacred ground. That has been changed.
Really? The Catholic Church Taught that slavery was ok? Did you missed that episode with the Romans where the Church Taught that it was wrong to keep slaves or that episode with the “New World” where monarchs and regular joes were deemed self-excommunicated if they engaged in slavery?Earlier, the teaching that slavery was permissible. And this was found in Scripture, no less. That teaching was changed as it should have been.
I fully concur! Yet, the Church cannot Teach that unrighteousness is ok because more people are engaged in it today than they were before or because society has open its heart, mind, and understanding to the plight of the unrighteousness making all things right to balance the “misunderstandings” of the past.New and better understandings, be they physical, psychological, etc demand that teachings that are rooted in obsolete understandings must be changed.
He makes no reference to who is worthy or unworthy. The interpretation of the Lord’s words have been left up to the apostles and their successors. Like other teachings, throughout history as times have progressed, teachings have been modified, amplified, and improved upon in the life of the Church. I think this just might be the action of the Holy Spirit???And one other thing. You cite the debate over communion for people in irregular marriages as is currently being discussed in Amoris Laetitia. **Consider this, nowhere in the four Gospels does Christ say anything about who can and cannot “eat his body, and drink his blood”. In fact, a strict reading leads one to believe that Jesus wants all to do so. **
(1 Corinthians 11:23-29)23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. 27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.
Hi!Do you want to accuse reputable news organizations of lying - posting false news? There is a lot of evidence to support what I said - I have plenty of news links if you care to be educated. Or is there some massive satanic conspiracy against Pope Francis? Or perhaps there are many who will defend Christs’ teachings and official catholic doctrine.
(Galatians 1:8)8 and let me warn you that if anyone preaches a version of the Good News different from the one we have already preached to you, whether it be ourselves or an angel from heaven, he is to be condemned.
Hi!They don’t seem to care - understand that there are some cardinals, bishops, and priests that support this new take on God’s mercy and many others have been silent - I suppose hoping all this get resolved somehow. The dubia cardinals will make a formal correction and if he doesn’t respond to that then we will have a formal schism - which is already informal but we are all hoping that the pope will call all clergy back to obedience of official catholic teaching. Remember Cardinal Burke is a canon lawyer so he knows what he is doing.
Hi!What is going on is clearly in conflict with official catholic teaching. The pope knows he cannot change official teaching so it seems that, with the help of those who agree with him, he is getting it done in at least some of the dioceses. I don’t think this has ever happened before in the history of our church. I don’t believe there is canon law to cover such a situation - we have what I posted above from vat 1 and 2 and what pope benedict has said on the subject. It’s enough to say that this mess is not the work of the Holy Spirit.
how about you become a Priest, and set about fixing the issue, as you see it. all my clergy are perfectly obedient to our Bishop, or Monastic rule.If you are correct then and catholic teaching remains the same then he need to call all of the clergy back to obedience to official catholic doctrine. The fact is that he has not done this and this is the basis for the dubia.
you cannot educate us of the ‘facts’I am asking neither. I want people to make an informed decision by paying attention and educating themselves with facts. People will believe what they want but at least we can help them make an informed decision.
You say he has made himself a huge target - this is of his own making by condoning what is going on through his silence - here are 5 links to start with - I have many more if you want themHi!
I’m not much of a joiner or reader… could you post an excerpt and a link to the evidence?
Personally I don’t think that Pope Francis will be hounded more than any other Catholic; he has made himself a huge target, though–but that’s my take.
I do believe that Catholics must Stand for Christ; it is mandatory:
Maran atha!
Angel
A recent blog post by a priest asked for people around the country to comment on whether or not people in their parish knew what was going on - not only did responders say people don’t know or don’t talk about it but that the priest/priests don’t mention it either.Hi!
…but that’s just it; I don’t know Cardinal Burke; I don’t know what he is doing.
I may be way out there, but I think that the average Catholic is just as knowledgeable about this as I–since you do seem to be in the know, why not offer excerpts on what is going on?
Maran atha!
Angel
You are right that there are a lot of attacks on our Pope that are unwarranted but also there is real reason for concern. I follow Catholic news every day and there is real concern among many of us as to where he is leading our church - and if he has the authority to make the changes that are being implemented. I follow reputable sites whose reporting in not questioned - but they do write their stories from a traditional Catholic point of view. The facts are not in question - quotes from our Pope, Cardinals, and Bishops are accurate. I have collected well over 100 links to news stories that clearly show there is a serious problem in our Church. I post in several places around the internet doing what I can to get people to pay attention. Generally, people dismiss any problems or sweep them under the carpet or hope the Holy Spirit will fix things. Not likely, I believe. The few of us that are paying attent think a formal schism will happen now that Cardinal Burke has called for a formal correction of the Pope.These are very sad days for our Church and things will get worse I believe.This kind of post both intrigues me and embarrasses me. Many outlandish accusations have been made against Pope Francis. I believe the Catholic Church continues to be under attack and Pope Francis is the perfect target. To repeat this “news” without any true substantiation is Wrong.
God Bless you and bring you Peace
the facts speak for themselves - I am not interpreting anything so what you say doesn’t apply to me. I stated in the opening post where the information came from - a highly respected Catholic philosopher. I have links to over 100 news stories from reputable sources that clearly point to a serious problem in our church. What I have done you or any interested Catholic could have done or be doing to help our sisters and brothers become knowledgeable in what is going on. With knowledge comes responsibility and I for one intent to continue doing everything I can to help my fellow Catholics.you cannot educate us of the ‘facts’
you are not an experienced Theologian trained specifically in the Clergy setting
that is your particular parish or diocese. We can’t have one diocese doing one thing and another diocese doing or not doing something else. Which diocese is correct and which is in error? The results of this are profound in that some people will be taught wrongly and their eternal salvation will be put in jeopardy.how about you become a Priest, and set about fixing the issue, as you see it. all my clergy are perfectly obedient to our Bishop, or Monastic rule.