Can Catholics Adopt and Baptise an Aborted Child?

[Br.Rich_SFO]

As did any other Christian martyr.

The point is that the unborn can:

a) recognize the Divine in Christ; and
b) die for His Sake.

The following two statements are contradictory. Truth cannot contradict truth.

And the second statement is begging the question. The recognition of the Divinity of Christ does not happen after abortion; it happens before abortion while the baby is still alive in the womb.

What question?
What contradiction?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

What question?
What contradiction?

The one I took the trouble to point out.

 

[stove]

OK I have a question. How come this prayer is in the Handbook if it is so clearly Non-Catholic? How did it get officially declared free of Catholic doctrinal or moral error by the archbishop of dublin Ireland (Imprimi Potest) and the Censor Theol. Deput. Ireland (Nihil Obstat)?

 

[stove]

Also, I was wondering, if the reason for this being not in line with Catholic teachings is:

This seems to be more in line with Mormon theology.
As Catholics we do not believe that it is possible to Baptize a little soul born dead.

What if the prayer refers to spiritually baptising the baby before it is killed or born dead or if the prayer was modified to say:

For all the helpless little children who die, and are murdered (due to abortions and contraception), in the womb of their mother, I pray that all of these little souls will be given eternal life by Our Lord Jesus Christ, through His Divine Mercy and I beg Jesus that I be allowed to spiritually baptise a little soul who will be born dead or murdered and I do so by saying: I baptise you (give a name, preferably a saint’s name) in the name of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit… “I have called you by your name, you are mine” (Is. 43:1)

Would this be acceptable?

 

[prv]

What about the holy innocents? What about John the Baptist who lept in his mother’s womb when the pregnant Mary approached? That is, that the unborn can recognize Jesus?

I say…

… the aborted unborn are already Baptised; by the Baptism of Blood.

I don’t really care if the Mormons want to claim this way of thinking. All the more power to them. I care that we Christians claim this way of thinking.

When does human life begin? Does the Catholic Church or at least JP2 not persistently refer to life as from conception to natural death?

Do parents not grieve the death of their unborn? If the unborn were not a baby then why define human life from the time of conception? And why grieve if the loss were only a fragment of tissue and not a human baby?

So if it is a human baby, then baptise him/her!

I think it is wrong to turn our backs on the innocent unborn lost to abortion. Wrong! And heartless!

We are not turning our backs on the innocents. But we must do things the way God wants it to be done, not the way we want it to be done. The Church invites us to trust in the mercy of the Lord. Is this not enough? Pray for their salvation, yes. But let us not get into magical thinking and hoping that the Lord’s words, to be “born again of water and spirit,” are nonsense.

I worry about these things as well. I do care about those murdered in the womb. But we must entrust these to the Lord, not get into fanciful thinking that all believers plus innocent children automatically go to heaven, as in evangelical thinking, or other similar ideas.

Or am I right in saying, that some of us so-called believers (I’m not pointing at anyone) do not trust the Lord and his mercy?

 

[Ani_Ibi]

prv:

We are not turning our backs on the innocents.

That remains to be seen.

prv:

But we must do things the way God wants it to be done, not the way we want it to be done.

Prove to me that the aborted are not baptised by blood.

prv:

The Church invites us to trust in the mercy of the Lord. Is this not enough?

We are required to do works of faith.

prv:

But let us not get into magical thinking and hoping that the Lord’s words, to be “born again of water and spirit,” are nonsense.

Saying that another point of view is magical thinking doesn’t make it so.

prv:

I worry about these things as well. I do care about those murdered in the womb.
But…

But, eh?

prv:

we must entrust these to the Lord, not get into fanciful thinking that all believers plus innocent children automatically go to heaven, as in evangelical thinking, or other similar ideas.

Strawman. It would behoove if you are using my quote as a bandstand to espouse your own point of view to at least have the courtesy to respond to what I have actually said.

prv:

Or am I right in saying, that some of us so-called believers (I’m not pointing at anyone)

I think you are pointing. Just remember that, when you are pointing, three fingers are pointing back at you.

 

[tamccrackine]

Hmm. Ok. So the babies are not martyrs and the prayer is not in line with Catholic teaching I guess. This I found in another thread:

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, I love you very much;
I beg you to spare the life of the unborn child that I have spiritually adopted, and who is in danger of being aborted.

But the prayer in which you’ve quoted talks of an unborn child who is in danger of being aborted while the prayer you rewrote is talking of babies that have already been aborted and should already be trusted to God.

You’ve got great intentions and a very good heart and I praise you for wanting to pray for those children. But Br. Rich is right.

 

[rayne89]

Do parents not grieve the death of their unborn? If the unborn were not a baby then why define human life from the time of conception? And why grieve if the loss were only a fragment of tissue and not a human baby?

I think it is wrong to turn our backs on the innocent unborn lost to abortion. Wrong! And heartless!

Who said anything about a child being a fragment of tissue or not greiving the loss of an aborted child? Nobody said this isn’t a child, I don’t understand why you went off in that direction. We are talking about a child killed by abortion. A dead child can not be baptised.

Nobody here is talking about turning their backs on the unborn. Church teaching is that you can not baptise a dead person whether their infants or 80 years old. It’s not wrong or heartless, it’s church teaching. Really Ani I’m surprise at such an extreme reaction. God is merciful, I trust he takes care of these poor souls that are tragicly murdered.

See link

newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm

It is true that some Catholic writers have held …that infants may be saved by an act of desire on the part of their parents, which is applied to them by some external sign, such as prayer or the invocation of the Holy Trinity; but Pius V… from that author’s commentary on St. Thomas, manifested his judgment that such a theory was not agreeable to the Church’sbelief.

Finally, it is to be noted that only adults are capable of receiving the baptism of desire.

The baptism of blood is the obtaining of the grace of justification by suffering martyrdom for the faith of Christ.

“When any die **for the confession of **Christ without having received the washing of regeneration, it avails as much for the remission of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism…”

…has been constantly maintained by the Fathers, who declare that if infants can not confess Christ with the mouth, they can by act. Tertullian (Adv. Valent., ii) speaks of the infants slaughtered by Herod as martyrs, and this has been the constant teaching of the Church.

(the underlining is not mine in the above quotes)
The infants killed by Herod were killed because he was trying to kill Jesus. I thought either a martyr himself must choose death for Christ, or is murdered out of pure hatred for Christ.

If it is true aborted children are baptised by blood than a “spiritual baptism” would not be necessary anyway. As far as I know there is no “spiritual” baptism in the Catholic Church.

 

[stove]

OK- At least 2 experts in theology ok’d this prayer (Imprimi Potest by Desmond Cardinal Connell, Archbishop of Dublin Ireland & Nihil Obstat - Stephen Greene, Censor Theol. Deput. Ireland) and every other prayer in this small booklet. According to them, the prayers in this booklet are free of doctrinal or moral error.

Now, I’m not saying its OK as it is written but whats wrong with saying this prayer (modified) for living babies who are about to be killed by abortions or contraceptions (like morning after pill, birth control pills, IUD’s, etc).

Here are my reasons:

1. 1257-58 of the Catechism states: In case of necessity, any person, even someone not baptized, can baptize, if he has the required intention. The intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes, and to apply the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.
2. In Section XI. UNBAPTIZED INFANTS in the Catholic Encyclopedia newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm it States: Moreover, baptism can more readily be applied to infants than the rite of circumcision, and by the ancient law this ceremony had to be deferred till the eighth day after birth, **while baptism can be bestowed upon infants immediately after they are born, and in case of necessity even in their mother’s womb. **

So, maybe something like this modification would be acceptable:

For all the helpless little children who die, and are murdered (due to abortions and contraception), in the womb of their mother, I pray that all of these little souls will be given eternal life by Our Lord Jesus Christ, through His Divine Mercy and I beg Jesus, if it be possible, that I be allowed to spiritually baptise a living soul who will be born dead, or murdered in the womb, and I do so by saying: I baptise you (give a name, preferably a saint’s name) in the name of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit… “I have called you by your name, you are mine” (Is. 43:1)

Isn’t the worst that could happen is that Jesus would say NO?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

OK I have a question. How come this prayer is in the Handbook if it is so clearly Non-Catholic? How did it get officially declared free of Catholic doctrinal or moral error by the archbishop of dublin Ireland (Imprimi Potest) and the Censor Theol. Deput. Ireland (Nihil Obstat)?

Because sometimes Imprimaturs are given and then removed, Sometimes they are given when they should not be.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Also, I was wondering, if the reason for this being not in line with Catholic teachings is:

What if the prayer refers to spiritually baptising the baby before it is killed or born dead or if the prayer was modified to say:

For all the helpless little children who die, and are murdered (due to abortions and contraception), in the womb of their mother, I pray that all of these little souls will be given eternal life by Our Lord Jesus Christ, through His Divine Mercy and I beg Jesus that I be allowed to spiritually baptise a little soul who will be born dead or murdered and I do so by saying: I baptise you (give a name, preferably a saint’s name) in the name of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit… “I have called you by your name, you are mine” (Is. 43:1)

Would this be acceptable?

The Prayer should reflect exactly what the Catechism says: We should hope and pray that there might be a way for God to bring these innocent souls who die with only Original sin to salvation, but we have no idea of how He might do that.

 

[porthos11]

Prove to me that the aborted are not baptised by blood.

First of all, since you are asserting the affirmative (pro) stance, the burden of proof is on you; the negative doesn’t have this burden.

Nevertheless, it has been shown by definition what baptism of blood means and that it cannot be applied to those who die by today’s abortions. The Holy Innocents, a favorite example, died due to hatred of Christ, but even these died under the Old Covenant, and therefore class under the Old Testament righteous awaiting release.

Also, outside of baptism of blood or desire, baptism requires water AND the Trinitarian formula. The mere Trinitarian formula is not enough. This requires proximity and it cannot be done “spiritually.” There is no such thing and is not in accordance with Catholic teaching.

What we need to adhere to is as Br. Rich stated, the Catechism. We entrust such innocents to the infinite mercy of God, and who is himself not limited by his sacraments.

If such a pamphlet contained a Nihil Obstat it should be reviewed and then possibly revoked. Nihil Obstats are not infallible.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

porthos11:

First of all, since you are asserting the affirmative (pro) stance, the burden of proof is on you; the negative doesn’t have this burden.

If you have something to say on Baptism of the Blood then you can say it and prove it. Otherwise it is just sticks and stones.

porthos11:

Nevertheless, it has been shown by definition what baptism of blood means and that it cannot be applied to those who die by today’s abortions.

Actually it has not been shown here. If you would like to take the trouble to show it here, then I will read what you have to say.

porthos11:

The Holy Innocents, a favorite example, died due to hatred of Christ, but even these died under the Old Covenant, and therefore class under the Old Testament righteous awaiting release.

Sure, during the time of Christ. And, as we all know, Christ ushered in the Old Covenant.

Um… not.

porthos11:

Also, outside of baptism of blood or desire, baptism requires water AND the Trinitarian formula.

Well we are not talking about outside the baptism of blood or desire.

porthos11:

What we need to adhere to is as Br. Rich stated, the Catechism. We entrust such innocents to the infinite mercy of God, and who is himself not limited by his sacraments.

And let’s not feed the poor, clothe the naked, house the homeless while we are at it. Let’s leave them to the infinite Mercy of God too. Let’s just be as comfortable as we possibly can while our national churches disappear midst the clamour of secular chaos.

porthos11:

If such a pamphlet contained a Nihil Obstat it should be reviewed and then possibly revoked.

Your opinion, but I note with no attempt to explain or justify.

 

[porthos11]

If you have something to say on Baptism of the Blood then you can say it and prove it. Otherwise it is just sticks and stones.

All right. Catechism 1258. The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death **for the sake of the faith **without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

Sure, during the time of Christ. And, as we all know, Christ ushered in the Old Covenant.

Um… not.

The New Covenant came in with Jesus’ death and resurrection, as he said during the Last Supper.

Well we are not talking about outside the baptism of blood or desire.

Yes we are. Aborted babies are baptized neither by blood (they weren’t killed for their faith) nor by desire (they have not attained reason). And obviously, not by water.

And let’s not feed the poor, clothe the naked, house the homeless while we are at it. Let’s leave them to the infinite Mercy of God too. Let’s just be as comfortable as we possibly can while our national churches disappear midst the clamour of secular chaos.

What’s this got to do with “spiritual baptism?” The works of mercy are part of the faith and commanded by God. “Spiritual baptism” is not. What are you talking about? We have the power and capacity to help the poor. We have neither the power nor capacity to “spiritually baptize”, hence, says the Church:

Catechism 1261. As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to **hope **that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism."

None of these are my words. We can only hope and pray for them. This is the teaching of the Magisterium of the Church. Do you submit to it? Or will you continue to lash out at me?

Your opinion, but I note with no attempt to explain or justify.

And it remains my opinion, nothing more.

Just take time to read the Catechism on what the Church says about baptism. Listen to Br. Rich; he is correct in his posts. We cannot “spiritually baptize.”

 

[ANGELIC_PEACE]

In the “Handbook of Devotion to Divine Mercy” on page 77 there is a prayer (Prayer of Divine Mercy Apostolate, Dublin) called Divine Mercy for the Unborn. This prayer allows a person to beg Jesus that they may be allowed to spiritually baptise a little soul born dead. This is the prayer:

The first thing that entered my mind after reading this prayer was that if I can pray to spiritually baptise babies who are born dead, then it makes sense that I should be able to pray for and spiritually baptise babies that died from abortions as well by saying this modified version of the prayer:

This prayer is not only a beautiful gesture and a Spiritual Work of Mercy, but has other benefits because you are in a sense adopting a child that has been rejected and murdered by his parent(s). Because the baby will become an instant martyr and saint, you can pray to them and ask them to pray for you as well. Surely one who faithfully says this prayer will have many adopted and baptized children that will be waiting to greet them at the gates of heaven!

I am planning on adding this to my daily prayer’s and wanted to ask others to do the same. If you think this a good idea, please pass it on to your friends.

Thanks.

Steve

P.S., If anyone has any suggestions on the wording let me know.

i think it’s a wonderful idea…why should we exclude anyone from our prayers…if our prayers can help a little baby be taken to heaven then we should say them… imagine if we never said the prayers then we got to heaven and our lord showed us all the babies that we were destined to help with our prayers but who now would be stuck in limbo because we wouldn’t say them…i believe that as soon as we start praying for these babies then they will pray for us…

you could pray for all babies who are born but who died without baptism because their parents wouldn’t get them baptised …or because there wasn’t a chance to…for all babies who die at before birth, at birth, or after birth, for all unborn babies who die through illness (either to themselves or their mother), accidents, miscarriage, violence, abortions etc…

it’s not only deceased unborn and born babies you could pray for to spiritually baptise…you could do the same with children, teenagers and adults…(deceased) and ask god to have mercy on them and bring them to heaven and leave it in gods hands…

and for all the unborn, born babies, children, teenagers, and adults that are alive you could say the spiritual baptism prayer for them and ask god to find a way for them to enter the catholic faith and be baptised…but if before that happens they die then ask god to accept your spiritual baptism for them…

i also pray for the dying because i read somewhere that one prayer can mean the difference between heaven and hell… and that the dying today are the holy souls of tomorrow…so the dying people you pray for who are saved through your prayers will pray for you…

i pray for the holy souls in purgatory too

heres some links that may interst you

solt3.org/mariasimma2.htm
solt3.org/mariasimma.htm
threeinonegod.com/abortion.htm
pottyaboutjesus.blogspot.com/

just thinkl every soul that you help…whether dying, in purgatory or in limbo…will pray for you for the rest of your life and will be your bestest friend in heaven

ANGELIC PEACE