Can Catholics be Freemasons?

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Howdy Ralphinal,
Please correct me if I am misreading what you are saying. Are you saying that there is NO proof beyond circumstantial evidence that the two groups merged?

To go backwards in your list, a man without use of his limbs cannot work.

To be born free means you can or do own land and are not under another’s rule

In the era that the Masons were formed, openly denying a Supreme Being was the same as openly denying the King

Groups love means to identify themselves. It makes them feel special. It would be like claiming an American Greek Frat is born of the knight templars because they, too, have secret words and handshakes and customs.

As far as the Temple goes, I am not 100% sure the Masonic description tells us anything special that the Bible or archeology does not tell us
Andrew Michael Ramsay was talking of these connections in 1737.

This page will provide more insight:
74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:y-4zvoFdd88J:community.middlebury.edu/~beyer/sk/%2520skforweb/KTEMP.doc

You can find others on the web that take both sides.
 
Howdy Ralphinal,

Andrew Michael Ramsay was talking of these connections in 1737.

This page will provide more insight:
74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:y-4zvoFdd88J:community.middlebury.edu/~beyer/sk/%2520skforweb/KTEMP.doc

You can find others on the web that take both sides.
Nice touch that, linking to an article that cites anti-Catholic bigots like Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh, and Dan Brown as, ahem…, authoritative historical sources. :rolleyes: These guys are not even considered scholars.

In the interests of keeping the IQ level high at CAF and anyone wishing to read actual History and not Fantasy about the Knights Templar, the book to read is Piers Paul Read The Templars reviewed positively by university experts in the field of the Middle Ages and the Crusades. amazon.com/Templars-Dramatic-Powerful-Military-Crusades/dp/0306810719

If someone is going to cite Baigent or Brown as reputable historians, you might as well throw the study of World History out the window for all intents and purposes, or start making claims that UFOs maybe landed by the Egyptian pyramids some 4,600 years ago and granted Speculative Masons their first Charter which later found its way to Rosslyn Chapel with copies of Jesus’ divine bloodline or some other nonsense. 😃
 
That’s between them and the Catholic Church. The Masons would never question any member on their faith or activities within their faith. As long as they acknowledge that they believe in a supreme being or the immortality of the soul that would make them–as you say–“compliant” within Freemasonry.
If they would never question any member on their faith or activities within their faith, why instruct them to be steadfast in “their faith of acceptance”? Seems contradictory to me.
 
I believe this from www.newadvent.org should clarify, those who responded to my post.
Fundamental principles and spirit

There have been many controversies among Masons as to the essential points of Masonry. English-speaking Masons style them “landmarks”, a term taken from Deuteronomy 19:14, and signifying “the boundaries of Masonic freedom”, or the unalterable limits within which all Masons have to confine themselves. Mackey [25] specifies no less than twenty-five landmarks. The same number is adopted by Whitehead [26] “as the pith of the researches of the ablest masonic writers”. The principle of them are [27]
Code:
* the method of recognition by secret signs, words, grips, steps, etc.;
* the three degrees including the Royal Arch;
* the Hiram legend of the third degree;
* the proper "tiling" of the lodge against "raining" and "snowing", i.e., against male and female "cowans", or eavesdroppers, i.e., profane intruders;
* the right of every regular Mason to visit every regular lodge in the world;
* a belief in the existence of God and in future life;
* the Volume of the Sacred Law;
* equality of Masons in the lodge;
* secrecy;
* symbolical method of teaching;
* inviolability of landmarks.
Of the ancient Masons, it is no longer said that they were obliged to “be of the religion” but only “to comply with the Christian usages of each Country”. The designation of the said “unsectarian” religion as the “ancient catholick” betrays the attempt to oppose this religion of “Humanity” to the Roman Catholic as the only true, genuine, and originally Catholic. The unsectarian character of Masonry is also implied in the era chosen on the title page: “In the year of Masonry 5723” and in the “History”. As to the “History” Anderson himself remarks in the preface (1738):
Code:
Only an expert Brother, by the true light, can readily find many useful hints in almost every page of this book which Cowans and others not initiated (also among Masons) cannot discern.
The only serious discrepancies among Masons regarding the interpretation of the texts of 1723 and 1738 refer to the words: “And if he rightly understands the Art, he will never be a stupid Atheist or an irreligious Libertine”. The controversy as to the meaning of these words has been particularly sharp since 13 September, 1877, when the Grand Orient of France erased that paragraph…
[1] The Freemason’s Chronicle, 1908, I, 283, frequently referred to in this article as Chr.
[2] Concise Hist., 109, 122.
[3] Gould, “Hist.”, I, 378, 379, 410; II, 153 sqq.
[4] A. Q. C., VIII, 35, 155 sq.; Boos, 104 sqq.
[5] A. Q. C., X, 10-30; IX, 167.
[6] A. Q. C., XI, 166-168.
[7] Vorgeschichte, I, 1909, 42-58.
[8] A. Q. C., X, 20-22.
[9] Gould, “Concise History”, 166 sq.
[10] Symbolism of Freemasonry, 1869, 303.
[11] 1900, I, 320 sq.
[12] “Transactions of the Lodge Ars Quatuor Coronatorum”, XI (London, 1898), 64.
[13] Encyclopedia, 296.
[14] Chr., 1890, II, 145.
[15] Donnelly, “Atlantis the Antediluvian World”.
[16] Oliver, I, 20, sq.
[17] Chr., 1880, I, 148; II, 139; 1884, II, 130; Gruber, 5, 122-128.
[18] See, for instance, “The Voice” of Chicago, Chr., 1885, I, 226.
[19] English ritual, 1908, almost identical with other English, Irish, Scottish, and American rituals.
[20] See Gould, “Hist.”, I, 408, 473, etc.
[21] “Handbuch”, 3rd ed., I, 321; Begemann, “Vorgeschichte, etc.”, 1909, I, 1 sqq.
[22] History, II, 2, 121.
[23] A. Q. C., X, 128.
[24] Encyclopedia, 296 sq.
[25] 3, 17-39.
[26] Chr., 1878, I, 187, 194 sqq.
[27] Mackey, “Jurisprudence”, 17-39; Chr., 1878, I, 194 sqq.; 1888, I, 11).
[28] Fischer, I, 14 sq.; Groddeck, 1 sqq., 91 sqq.; “Handbuch”, 3rd ed., II, 154.
[29] Grand Lodge Ms. No. 1, Gould, “Concise History”, 236; Thorp, Ms. 1629, A. Q. C., XI, 210; Rawlinson Ms. 1729-39 A. Q. C., XI, 22; Hughan, “Old Charges”.
[30] Groddeck; “Handbuch”, 3rd ed., I, 466 sqq.
[31] Oliver, “Remains”, I, 96; 332.
[32] Chr., 1876, I, 113.
[33] see also Chr., 1878, I, 180; 1884, II, 38; etc., Gould, “Conc. Hist.”, 289 sq.
[34] Lexicon, 42.
[35] Kunsturkunden, 1810, I, 525.
[36] Begemann, “Vorgeschichte,” II, 1910, 127 sq., 137 sq.
[37] Calcott, “A Candid Disquisition, etc.”, 1769; Oliver, “Remains”, II, 301.
[38] Gould, “History”, II, 400.
[39] Calcott; Oliver, ibid., II, 301-303.
[40] “Sign.”, 1904, 45 sq., 54; Gruber (5), 49 sqq.; Idem (4), 23 sq.
[41] Findel, “Die Schule der Hierarchie, etc.”, 1870, 15 sqq.; Schiffmann, “Die Entstehung der Rittergrade”, 1882, 85, 92, 95 sq.
[42] Bulletin du Grand Orient de France, 1877, 236-50.
[43] “Intern. Bull.”, Berne, 1908, No. 2.
[44] Chr., 1878, I, 161.
[45] 3rd ed., II, 231.
[46] Chr., 1890, I, 243.
[47] Acacia, 1907, I, 48.
[48] Sign., 1907, 133 sq.
[49] Sign., 1905, 54.
[50] Chr., 1878, I, 134.
[51] Morals and Dogma, 643 sqq.
[52] 3rd ed., II, 200.
[53] Sign., 1905, 27.
[54] Rivista, 1909, 44.
[55] Gould, “History”, II, 284 sq.
[56] Concise History, 309.
[57] A. Q. C., X, 127 sqq.; XI, 47 sqq.; XVI, 27 sqq.
[58] Gould, "Conc. Hist., 272; 310- 17.
[59] Ibid., 280.
[60] Ibid., 318.
[61] Handbuch, 3rd ed., I, 24 sqq.; II, 559 sqq.
[62] Chr., 1906, II, 19 sq.; 1884, II, 306.
[63] A. Q. C., XI, 43.
[64] Preston, “Illustrations”, 296 seq.

Please visit the page to read more on WHY Freemasonry is evil. Besides the Templar revolt was brutish but never is talked about. Also the Templar desired power, and became corrupt and demonic even. The war between these societies has been going on for ages, and has been bloody throughout history. Masons were violent against Priests and “Papists” in early Americas formative period. Hibernian’s jobs were to guard and protect the Priests.
 
Besides the Templar revolt was brutish but never is talked about. Also the Templar desired power, and became corrupt and demonic even. The war between these societies has been going on for ages, and has been bloody throughout history. Masons were violent against Priests and “Papists” in early Americas formative period. Hibernian’s jobs were to guard and protect the Priests.
No, Verum, you are walking into the Freemason’s facetious arguments. The Templars were Christian soldiers not heretics. They met their end because the French King, not the Pope, craved their treasures. The Templars of the Middle Ages have NOTHING to do with Freemasonry. Freemasonry just makes up a mythical link to the Templars for many Masons, which isn’t there, along with many other fantasies they make up of their origins to sound important.

However, in today’s gullible society many Masonic Templar connections are attempted by Masons themselves as a way to get at the Church or to somehow explain the Vatican’s hostility. Masons can’t understand Masonry is condemned by Rome and most other Christian denominations because of its ritual being incompatible with Rome. Why do you think Churches with no link to the Pope or the Templars condemn Freemasonry too? The Lutherans for instance have nothing to do with the Templars, yet they condemn Freemasonry too just like Rome. This myth of a Vatican vendetta is just a Masonic myth with no basis in reality. orlutheran.com/masoniclodge.html

If the Templars were really proto-Masons and for that reason destroyed, then why do non-Catholic Churches also condemn the Masons. Catholic vendetta is hogwash since most other Christian denominations also criticize Freemasonry as I linked to earlier in the thread on Anglicanism.

My arguments stick with Masonic religion. I don’t believe for a moment there to be some grand Masonic conspiracy (heck, they are losing members by the year). I come on here just to clarify the Church’s position on Masonry and its incompatibility with Christianity as the Archbiship of Canterbury averred. (what vendetta could the Anglicans have against the Templars, when the Anglican Church hadn’t even come into existence). They couldn’t; hence the ridiculousness of the Mason’s argument about Rome’s reasons.
 
From Piers Paul Read’s scholarly book on the Templars:

In contrast to the real story behind the Templars: "…with the advent of the Enlightenment in the seventeenth century there emerged a third view of the Templars as neither orthodox nor heretical Christians but rather as the high priests of an ancient and occult religion which predated Christ. It might be thought that an intellectual movement that prided itself on supplanting superstition with common sense would blow away the cobwebs of obfuscation that surrounded the Templars, but the Enlightenment was far from being the simple exercise of the rational faculties. (Rather than demystifying)…some eighteenth-century men found Templars, and turned them into a wild fantasy which for mistagogy and obfuscation equalled anything the old Catholic historiograpy cound offer. So successful was the enterprise that to this day it is impossible to approach the Templars without encountering the remnants, of even the full and gaudy robes, of eighteenth-century prejudice.

"The chief agents of this “Templarism”, the metamorphosis of the Templars from history into myth were the Freemasons … whose hypothesis was quite as fanciful as Parzival.

“Speculation did not end with the eighteenth century: in fact it has never been more feverish than it is today.”

This Freemasonic speculation on the Templars is nothing but fantasy as the Templars considered themselves a Christian Order of Knights. Period. Not holders of occult science.
 
Don’t overlook the fact that many Templars joined the Hospitlars after they were disbanded. And some of the land went to them as well.
 
Howdy Ralphinal,

Andrew Michael Ramsay was talking of these connections in 1737.

This page will provide more insight:
74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:y-4zvoFdd88J:community.middlebury.edu/~beyer/sk/%2520skforweb/KTEMP.doc

You can find others on the web that take both sides.
Sorry. I see wikipedia cited as a source A LOT. I see Dan Brown and Steven Speilberg listed as support for the theory.

All the article shows is that Masons hold one view, and the support for it, while scholars hold another (with no real support). I cannot find Kalie Mix on the internet, so I cannot say if this meets my earlier criteria of a non-Masonic source. I am willing to bet that she (name looks female) is a HUGE Dan Brown fan. If that is the case, she has no credentials as a historic scholar in my book.
 
If they would never question any member on their faith or activities within their faith, why instruct them to be steadfast in “their faith of acceptance”? Seems contradictory to me.
Miguel,

It appears to me that your are throwing mud against the wall and seeing if it sticks; in this case you are 100% wrong; Please re-read my post and compare it to your response. I think you’ll see where you made your error.
 
Howdy KyivAndrew,

“Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.”
  • Benjamin Franklin, Freemason
Nice touch that, linking to an article that cites anti-Catholic bigots like Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh, and Dan Brown as, ahem…, authoritative historical sources. :rolleyes: These guys are not even considered scholars.
“Speak ill of no man, but speak all the good you know of everybody.”
  • Benjamin Franklin, Freemason
Oh my goodness, I failed to check to see if there scholar cards were valid or not…:eek: Please provide me with a thorough description/prerequisites of a “scholar,” and from this point forward, I will do my utmost to only cite “bona fide” scholars.

For clarification purposes to our viewing audience, Dan Brown’s novels are not cited in this article. Only his name is mentioned referring to a possible reason for a lot of the new interest in these subjects.
In the interests of keeping the IQ level high at CAF and anyone wishing to read actual History and not Fantasy about the Knights Templar, the book to read is Piers Paul Read The Templars reviewed positively by university experts in the field of the Middle Ages and the Crusades. amazon.com/Templars-Dramatic-Powerful-Military-Crusades/dp/0306810719
“A man wrapped up in himself makes a very small bundle.”
  • Benjamin Franklin, Freemason
University experts will agree on Templar issues as soon as economists agree on fiscal policy.
If someone is going to cite Baigent or Brown as reputable historians, you might as well throw the study of World History out the window for all intents and purposes, or start making claims that UFOs maybe landed by the Egyptian pyramids some 4,600 years ago and granted Speculative Masons their first Charter which later found its way to Rosslyn Chapel with copies of Jesus’ divine bloodline or some other nonsense. 😃
Once again, Brown’s writings were not cited as a reference. Cute sarcasm though.

The question remains unanswered as to why the RCC so vehemently fights Freemasonry?

Freemasons know that the bogus reasons for this stance are easily debunked. The RCC has fought against Freemasonry for going on 300 years now. Why would the pope ask that the people pursue and punish masons?

No other group has received such an attack by the RCC.

I am not able to find any other support for the actions of the RCC except for the Freemasons being the successor of the Knights Templar.

Thank you.
 
I believe this from www.newadvent.org should clarify, those who responded to my post.
Fundamental principles and spirit

Please visit the page to read more on WHY Freemasonry is evil. Besides the Templar revolt was brutish but never is talked about. Also the Templar desired power, and became corrupt and demonic even. The war between these societies has been going on for ages, and has been bloody throughout history. Masons were violent against Priests and “Papists” in early Americas formative period. Hibernian’s jobs were to guard and protect the Priests.
If you were a Mason speaking you might have more credibility, but speaking as a profane, your credibility on Freemasonry is very limited. Its truly difficult to take you seriously
 
Don’t overlook the fact that many Templars joined the Hospitlars after they were disbanded. And some of the land went to them as well.
Many were killed too…
Many left the order…
In Portugal, the order lived on with changes…

Some even say that the Templar armada sailed out with the treasure never to be seen again…

Many fled to England were the King did not obey the pope’s order for 3 months giving them time to go to Scotland were the Pope’s order was not obeyed at all…

What became of this group?

No one can speak to this with 100% certainty–not even self-proclaimed “scholars.”
 
From Piers Paul Read’s scholarly book on the Templars:

In contrast to the real story behind the Templars: "…with the advent of the Enlightenment in the seventeenth century there emerged a third view of the Templars as neither orthodox nor heretical Christians but rather as the high priests of an ancient and occult religion which predated Christ. It might be thought that an intellectual movement that prided itself on supplanting superstition with common sense would blow away the cobwebs of obfuscation that surrounded the Templars, but the Enlightenment was far from being the simple exercise of the rational faculties. (Rather than demystifying)…some eighteenth-century men found Templars, and turned them into a wild fantasy which for mistagogy and obfuscation equalled anything the old Catholic historiograpy cound offer. So successful was the enterprise that to this day it is impossible to approach the Templars without encountering the remnants, of even the full and gaudy robes, of eighteenth-century prejudice.

"The chief agents of this “Templarism”, the metamorphosis of the Templars from history into myth were the Freemasons … whose hypothesis was quite as fanciful as Parzival.

“Speculation did not end with the eighteenth century: in fact it has never been more feverish than it is today.”

This Freemasonic speculation on the Templars is nothing but fantasy as the Templars considered themselves a Christian Order of Knights. Period. Not holders of occult science.
Did you check Piers Paul Read’s “scholar” card before citing him? Never heard of him…

Is he a real “scholar” or just a writer who’s a self-proclaimed “scholar.” Would it be wise to bet that he is catholic?

Does he actually give any proof or is it all just anti-mason venom that he spews?
 
Many were killed too…
Many left the order…
In Portugal, the order lived on with changes…

Some even say that the Templar armada sailed out with the treasure never to be seen again…

Many fled to England were the King did not obey the pope’s order for 3 months giving them time to go to Scotland were the Pope’s order was not obeyed at all…

What became of this group?

No one can speak to this with 100% certainty–not even self-proclaimed “scholars.”
Here is the issue. If I tell you there was a man named William who acted as a kinght to enter jousting tournaments until he was found to be a commoner but the Prince created a place for him so he could keep playing, but there is no hard proof one way or another, will you accept it? Oh, and it was the basis for the Movie “A Knight’s Tale.”

Revisionist history to create a past is fine. It is part of the mythos. Just do not try to make your mythos the fact.

I will now give you the best reason I can that Catholics cannot be Masons: because Momma said not to. As long as Holy MOther Church sees a problem, there is a problem. How many times did your mother tell you someone was trouble but you did not listen? How many times was she right?

DO Masons take oaths over trivial matters? Do Masons swear that they will show preference to other Masons? Do Masons say any faith is fine as long as you have a faith?
 
Did you check Piers Paul Read’s “scholar” card before citing him? Never heard of him…

Is he a real “scholar” or just a writer who’s a self-proclaimed “scholar.” Would it be wise to bet that he is catholic?

Does he actually give any proof or is it all just anti-mason venom that he spews?
You have never heard of Piers Paul Read because you are evidently not too interested in following mainstream books or writings on the Templars. In his book he cites Malcolm Barber, Paul Johnson and legitimate historians on the period. These names either ring a bell if you are familiar with historians or they don’t. “Anti-mason venom” - what the heck is that? Just somebody writing a factual book on the Templars and dispelling childish fantasies. And this upsets you because your fantasies come tumbling down?

Tell me Houston. We used to have another poster from Texas who posted on CAF and he only posted to defend Masonry. He didn’t care about following discussions on the Church or Jesus Christ or Apologetics. All that mattered to him was Masonry and its religion. It looks like you are similar to that poster from Texas.

In the interests of honesty, what degree Mason are you? Are you Scottish rite or York rite or are you merely in Blue Lodge? We have no secrets to hide so post your ranking if you are going to attack the Catholic Church’s positions on CAF. 🙂
 
Howdy Kyiv!

Still looking forward to seeing your prereqs for a “scholar.”…
You have never heard of Piers Paul Read because you are evidently not too interested in following mainstream books or writings on the Templars.
I am interested. But I’ve still never heard of your boy.
In his book he cites Malcolm Barber, Paul Johnson and legitimate historians on the period. These names either ring a bell if you are familiar with historians or they don’t. “Anti-mason venom” - what the heck is that? Just somebody writing a factual book on the Templars and dispelling childish fantasies. And this upsets you because your fantasies come tumbling down?
Anti-mason venom is a descriptions for the lies and half-truths that are told with the intent to defame Freemasonry.
Tell me Houston. We used to have another poster from Texas who posted on CAF and he only posted to defend Masonry. He didn’t care about following discussions on the Church or Jesus Christ or Apologetics. All that mattered to him was Masonry and its religion. It looks like you are similar to that poster from Texas.
You ask me to tell you… but I didn’t see a question… is this in keeping with:
KyivAndrew;5880578:
In the interests of keeping the IQ level high at CAF
In the interests of honesty, what degree Mason are you? Are you Scottish rite or York rite or are you merely in Blue Lodge? We have no secrets to hide so post your ranking if you are going to attack the Catholic Church’s positions on CAF. 🙂
In the interest of honesty, it’s been on my signature the whole time…

Is someone attack if that someone was first attacked? Or would it just be defending?

Here again:
KyivAndrew;5880578:
In the interests of keeping the IQ level high at CAF
 
AS far as I am concerned, even if Mother Church lifted the ban, based on what I know of Masons in Alabama, I would not join. The Masonic Lodges here are full of Klansmen, and vice-versa. All of the great bigots and racests and segregationists were Masons. How can we know? Because they were proud of both.

If I judge you people on the actions of those you accept within your group, you are in bad company. Since you must be invited and accepted, I can do that without feeling bad about it. If the Masons had an open door policy, I might feel differently about judging them by the company they keep
 
AS far as I am concerned, even if Mother Church lifted the ban, based on what I know of Masons in Alabama, I would not join.
Woa! < 2 minutes later… >

Glad you mentioned this. Our lodge secretary was just about to put a stamp on the application we were mailing to you… that would have been 40-something cents we’d of never seen again…
The Masonic Lodges here are full of Klansmen, and vice-versa. All of the great bigots and racests and segregationists were Masons. How can we know? Because they were proud of both.
Anti-mason venom…
If I judge you people on the actions of those you accept within your group, you are in bad company. Since you must be invited and accepted, I can do that without feeling bad about it. If the Masons had an open door policy, I might feel differently about judging them by the company they keep
Masonry does have an open door policy.
“2 B 1 ask 1”
 
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