Can Catholics be Freemasons?

[gamewell45]

Actually, no, it does not. It gives examples of the Oath of Office of the President of the United States and the oath taken at the induction into the military. The Church would see both of these as being over serious matter, not trivial.

Maybe my question is bad. Do Masons hold that protecting the secrets of Freemasonry to be of equal weight as telling the truth in court, upholding and defending the United States and the US Constitution, and protecting the citizens of this country from all threats foreign and domestic?

I could care less about the penalties, it is the actual case of using the Name of God to take the oath that is the issue

It is a yes or no question. Either they are of the same seriousness or they are not.

Ralph,

Since its a “yes” or “no” question, I’m afraid i can’t answer it for you.

What i would suggest is that you come to your own conclusion based on what you know or have read on the organization.and accept it as such. I’m sure there are other topics you’d rather be discussing rather then opining on Freemasonry.

The Roman Catholic Church has their position on Freemasonry and thats not going to change and I accept that. Neither are the Freemasons going to change their position on how they conduct business. We will continue to admit to our membership anyone who meets the criteria to become a Mason.

There’s really not much more to be said.

 

[ralphinal]

Ralph,

Since its a “yes” or “no” question, I’m afraid i can’t answer it for you.

What i would suggest is that you come to your own conclusion based on what you know or have read on the organization.and accept it as such. I’m sure there are other topics you’d rather be discussing rather then opining on Freemasonry.

The Roman Catholic Church has their position on Freemasonry and thats not going to change and I accept that. Neither are the Freemasons going to change their position on how they conduct business. We will continue to admit to our membership anyone who meets the criteria to become a Mason.

There’s really not much more to be said.

Fair enough.

As an aside, what would you rather discuss on here?

 

[gamewell45]

gamewell,

Not to be mean or rude as that is not my intent. It was only a half complement.

I wouldn’t take it as you being mean or rude; even if it was a half compliment, I recognize that people have their strong convictions and faith in here and I have total respect for that.

 

[gamewell45]

Fair enough.

As an aside, what would you rather discuss on here?

I’m not sure as I’m rather new to this forum, still settling in and trying to sort through the different threads of which there are plenty to view. But i’ll keep you in mind should I find one that I’d like to discuss.

 

[workingman]

gamewell,

What happened. I was wondering how you could justify what was asked and stated in post #155. I don’t want to sound antaganistic but I would love to hear the justification as I could never justify it.

 

[yoopersenior]

I am a freemason (recognized Blue Lodge) and have been now for a number of years. I can honestly tell you from my perspective, Freemasonry is not a religion, nor a substitute for religion; in fact all freemasons (at least in my jurisdiction) are instructed to be steadfast in the faith of their acceptance. There is an altar in the lodge where the Holy Bible or other VSL is on display to remind us of our obligation to God. I agree with you that there really is no benefit, spiritual or temporal, of Freemasonry that a Catholic cannot find in the Catholic Church. I’d go father to say that there really is no benefit, spiritual or temporal, of Freemasonry that a person of any religious persuasion cannot find in a House of Worship.

If your joining a Masonic Lodge for spiritual or religious reasons, you’ll be extremely disapointed and will be referred to the House of Worship of your choice.

I know that the Catholic Church does not permit membership in the Freemasons, but I think its safe to say that my lodge is composed of approximately 40% Roman Catholic members, so while they may be considered to be in a state of grave sin, none of them seem to have an issue with it.

Just an honest perspective from a Freemason.

Just curious…why are you posting on a Catholic website if you are not Catholic, or not seeking to be Catholic? To defend Freemasonry? What degree are you? I think the lower degrees think it is a harmless, benevolent society. (If it is harmless, why the secrecy? Everything in Christianity is available to all people) They contribute time and money, while the higher-ups keep secret the real purposes of Masonry, to worship Lucifer (the “harmless, benevolent” light bearer that “all” religions worship). In worshipping Lucifer you fall into the error of worshipping yourselves, thinking that man can save himself, and has no need of a Savior. The fact that there are Catholics who are Masons doesn’t mean those Catholics are true Catholics who serve the risen Christ, and they may be the ones who are pushing the Church into liberalism and ecumania. Just the fact that these “Catholics” in your lodge have no issue with being in grave sin, shows that they are not concerned with what the Church teaches or obeying Christ.

God save you.

 

[yoopersenior]

Ralph,

Since its a “yes” or “no” question, I’m afraid i can’t answer it for you.

What i would suggest is that you come to your own conclusion based on what you know or have read on the organization.and accept it as such. I’m sure there are other topics you’d rather be discussing rather then opining on Freemasonry.

The Roman Catholic Church has their position on Freemasonry and thats not going to change and I accept that. Neither are the Freemasons going to change their position on how they conduct business. We will continue to admit to our membership anyone who meets the criteria to become a Mason.

There’s really not much more to be said.

Anyone who “meets the criteria”? Not women, of course…

 

[gamewell45]

Just curious…why are you posting on a Catholic website if you are not Catholic, or not seeking to be Catholic? To defend Freemasonry? What degree are you? I think the lower degrees think it is a harmless, benevolent society. (If it is harmless, why the secrecy? Everything in Christianity is available to all people) They contribute time and money, while the higher-ups keep secret the real purposes of Masonry, to worship Lucifer (the “harmless, benevolent” light bearer that “all” religions worship). In worshipping Lucifer you fall into the error of worshipping yourselves, thinking that man can save himself, and has no need of a Savior. The fact that there are Catholics who are Masons doesn’t mean those Catholics are true Catholics who serve the risen Christ, and they may be the ones who are pushing the Church into liberalism and ecumania. Just the fact that these “Catholics” in your lodge have no issue with being in grave sin, shows that they are not concerned with what the Church teaches or obeying Christ.

God save you.

Well, thats a very good question. You are correct that i’m not a Roman Catholic; and yes i’m not seeking to be a Roman Catholic either.

So, the question is, why am I here? I’m here mainly because I don’t know a lot about the Roman Catholic Church and since knowledge is a good thing I figured this would be the perfect sight to scan and read on a regular basis. Particularly since the website welcomes people of other religions to join the site.

If you think i joined the website to defend Freemasonry, your mistaken; it was just a topic I noticed while scanning the non-catholic page and felt that i needed to add my two cents to correct what were obvious errors posted by uninformed people.

I am a Master Mason (third degree) which is as high as you can advance in Blue Lodge Masonry; there are some appendant bodies (organizations that masons will allow you to join and be recognized) that some Masons join; but an overwhelming majority of us go no further then Blue Lodge. Contrary to what you maintain; aside from some grips, passwords and signs, we have no secrets; We are in some ways similar to the Knights of Columbus with the main difference that they are a religious based group.

Finally, I know that the Roman Catholic Church forbids its members from membership in the Masons and we are fine with that; whatever policies they make is their own business and none of ours. We do accept people of the Roman Catholic faith in Freemasonry if they seek membership and in my particular lodge, I estimate over 40% of the base membership are Roman Catholics. I guess under your definition they are not “true Catholics” but they don’t seem to mind and again, since we are not a religion nor a substitute for religion, its not a concern for us. As far as this so-called Satan or Lucifer worshiping or other violations of Christianity, I honestly have no clue what your talking about. And please understand, I mean no disrespect to you or any other person who is opposed to freemasonry, but when we get asked questions like what you have asked, we shake our heads in sad amazement.

May The Good Lord Bless You!

 

[gamewell45]

Anyone who “meets the criteria”? Not women, of course…

You are incorrect. There are Co-Masonry disciplines which admit both men and women.

 

[gamewell45]

gamewell,

What happened. I was wondering how you could justify what was asked and stated in post #155. I don’t want to sound antaganistic but I would love to hear the justification as I could never justify it.

Actually I read your post #155 twice and really don’t understand what you are asking; please put it in a form that i can understand if you would.

Thanks.

 

[workingman]

Actually I read your post #155 twice and really don’t understand what you are asking; please put it in a form that i can understand if you would.

Thanks.

Sorry, some of that was a over post. I will paste what I would like you answer again. Before I paste it What I want to know is how one can justify being a Christian with the following and how that it is even possible to keep it compatible with Christianity.

Blood oaths that are not of Christ

oath swore by the Entered Apprentice of first degree, " …binding myself under no less penalty than that of having my throat cut across, my tongue torn out by its roots, and my body buried in the rough sands of the sea, at low-water mark." The Master Mason swears, “…under no less penalty than that of having my body severed in two, my bowels taken from thence and burned to ashes, the ashes scattered before the four winds of heaven…”

These oaths were not always symbolic as they are now claimed to be.

Or the raising of the dead a highlight of a new Master Mason.

The final “Blue Lodge” degree that that candidate is laid out "in death"and is raised from the dead by the “Worshipful Master” of the Lodge (representing King Solomon), using the “strong grip” (or “Lion’s Paw”)of the Master Mason.

When did king Solomon get the power to raise the dead? This also clearly smacks in the face of Matt 28:18 where it is Christ power alone.

How about the five points of fellowship do you remember this. The sacred word, Mah-Hah-Bone.
Any thing passed from one Mason to another in this form is a kept secret murder and treason excepted. Just a fyi in the Royal Arch degree murder and treason are not excepted.

Masonry claims not to be a religion but Albert Pike himself says in the Morals and Dogmas (p213-214) “Every Masonic lodge is a temple of religion, and its teachings are instructions in religion…this is true religion revealed to the ancient patriarchs; which masonry has taught for many centuries, and which it will continue to teach as long as time
endures.”

Albert Pike also wrote in Morals and Dogmas (p718) “Masonry propagates no creed except it’s own most simple sublime one; that universal religion, taught by nature and reason.”
So by this statement Masonry can not agree that the Bible is the inerrant , God-Breathed, or infallible.

How does one discern this and still call them selves a Christian while involved with Masonry.

 

[gamewell45]

Sorry, some of that was a over post. I will paste what I would like you answer again. Before I paste it What I want to know is how one can justify being a Christian with the following and how that it is even possible to keep it compatible with Christianity.

Blood oaths that are not of Christ

oath swore by the Entered Apprentice of first degree, " …binding myself under no less penalty than that of having my throat cut across, my tongue torn out by its roots, and my body buried in the rough sands of the sea, at low-water mark." The Master Mason swears, “…under no less penalty than that of having my body severed in two, my bowels taken from thence and burned to ashes, the ashes scattered before the four winds of heaven…”

These oaths were not always symbolic as they are now claimed to be.

Or the raising of the dead a highlight of a new Master Mason.

The final “Blue Lodge” degree that that candidate is laid out "in death"and is raised from the dead by the “Worshipful Master” of the Lodge (representing King Solomon), using the “strong grip” (or “Lion’s Paw”)of the Master Mason.

When did king Solomon get the power to raise the dead? This also clearly smacks in the face of Matt 28:18 where it is Christ power alone.

How about the five points of fellowship do you remember this. The sacred word, Mah-Hah-Bone.
Any thing passed from one Mason to another in this form is a kept secret murder and treason excepted. Just a fyi in the Royal Arch degree murder and treason are not excepted.

Masonry claims not to be a religion but Albert Pike himself says in the Morals and Dogmas (p213-214) “Every Masonic lodge is a temple of religion, and its teachings are instructions in religion…this is true religion revealed to the ancient patriarchs; which masonry has taught for many centuries, and which it will continue to teach as long as time
endures.”

Albert Pike also wrote in Morals and Dogmas (p718) “Masonry propagates no creed except it’s own most simple sublime one; that universal religion, taught by nature and reason.”
So by this statement Masonry can not agree that the Bible is the inerrant , God-Breathed, or infallible.

How does one discern this and still call them selves a Christian while involved with Masonry.

There’s not much i can tell you that i haven’t already explained before; The rising of king Solomon is not bringing him back to life; rather its rising him to be reburied properly. While Albert Pike was a Freemason, he does not solely speak for the Fraternity and not all masons agree with his philosophy. Without getting into areas that i cannot discuss with the profane, most everything you mentioned is subject to interpretation. Obviously we don’t interpret various oaths as you or the church does. The Royal Arch Degree is something completely separate from Freemasonry and as such I"m not familiar with that appendant body.

Based on our interpretation of Freemasonry we find it to be compatible with Christianity.

Anyhow that’s about all I can tell you about what you’ve asked me.

 

[workingman]

There’s not much i can tell you that i haven’t already explained before; The rising of king Solomon is not bringing him back to life; rather its rising him to be reburied properly. While Albert Pike was a Freemason, he does not solely speak for the Fraternity and not all masons agree with his philosophy. Without getting into areas that i cannot discuss with the profane, most everything you mentioned is subject to interpretation. Obviously we don’t interpret various oaths as you or the church does. The Royal Arch Degree is something completely separate from Freemasonry and as such I"m not familiar with that appendant body.

Based on our interpretation of Freemasonry we find it to be compatible with Christianity.

Anyhow that’s about all I can tell you about what you’ve asked me.

I can’t believe you are pulling the profane card. Since you stated are not part of the royal arch I won’t bring that up. Though you consider it appendant body. Though the linking can be questioned on that.
Albert Pike though is among the founders. Most will follow his teachings though.
I did not wait for the church to interpret the oaths for me or the rituals. On this topic gamewell I am coming from experience. If you are not comfortable discussing it publicly on the forum feel free to PM me.

I could not justify it as compatible with Christianity.

God bless

 

[gamewell45]

I can’t believe you are pulling the profane card. Since you stated are not part of the royal arch I won’t bring that up. Though you consider it appendant body. Though the linking can be questioned on that.
Albert Pike though is among the founders. Most will follow his teachings though.
I did not wait for the church to interpret the oaths for me or the rituals. On this topic gamewell I am coming from experience. If you are not comfortable discussing it publicly on the forum feel free to PM me.

I could not justify it as compatible with Christianity.

God bless

Thanks for your response and also for the invite to PM if i didn’t feel comfortable discussing it publicly. While it may be a “card” to play, I am comfortable discussing with you anything regarding Freemasonry that the profane are permitted to hear. Understand their are certain things which I cannot discuss with you; not because I am trying to evade you, rather because you are not entitled to have knowledge of them because you are not a Freemason.

Pike was never a “founder” of Freemasonry, as the craft has been in existence since the early 1700’s. He did write several books regarding Freemasonry, giving his opinion which was accepted by some, and rejected by others.

As a suggestion, all of the information you want regarding Freemasonry is obtainable via the internet.

Aside from that you most likely know my position on the Church vs. Freemasonry which I made known in earlier posts. One of the nice things that Freemasonry teaches us is to be tolerant of others who think different then us and I for one embrace that teaching.

 

[workingman]

gamewell45;5968548]Thanks for your response and also for the invite to PM if i didn’t feel comfortable discussing it publicly. While it may be a “card” to play, I am comfortable discussing with you anything regarding Freemasonry that the profane are permitted to hear. Understand their are certain things which I cannot discuss with you; not because I am trying to evade you, rather because you are not entitled to have knowledge of them because you are not a Freemason.

You are most welcome. I wonder why do you consider me profane? You assume. I do not need the internet for information that I listed. But yes as you state any of the “secrets” are accessible on line because there are rely not any true secrets.

Pike was never a “founder” of Freemasonry, as the craft has been in existence since the early 1700’s. He did write several books regarding Freemasonry, giving his opinion which was accepted by some, and rejected by others.

You are correct founder was the wrong word on my part to use. He is/was regarded as a leader and authority figure on the subject.

As a suggestion, all of the information you want regarding Freemasonry is obtainable via the internet.

As I stated I don’t need the information I already know it from experience. I want to know how you find it compatible.

Aside from that you most likely know my position on the Church vs. Freemasonry which I made known in earlier posts. One of the nice things that Freemasonry teaches us is to be tolerant of others who think different then us and I for one embrace that teaching.

Yes I read them but the justification of it on the details of the oaths are sketchy for be blasphemous at some points. Yes they do teach tolerance. Something I suggest you do if you get a chance in attend lodge in other country’s. You may find it a altering experience when you walk in a find a Koran on the alter ect…

 

[KyivAndrew]

I am comfortable discussing with you anything regarding Freemasonry that the profane are permitted to hear. Understand their are certain things which I cannot discuss with you; not because I am trying to evade you, rather because you are not entitled to have knowledge of them because you are not a Freemason.

One of the nice things that Freemasonry teaches us is to be tolerant of others who think different then us and I for one embrace that teaching.

And how would anyone know that since you “cannot discuss” anything about Freemasonry, not that there really is anything to discuss – what a hokey-pokey fantasy about a secret cricket club at the founding of the Temple of Solomon that grown men swear buy?

Gamewell, your words evince perfectly why Freemasonry is incompatible with Christianity – calling another believing “Christian” Profane in and of itself is patently wrong and disgraceful. I don’t believe in any wishy-washy Masonic conspiracy theories (the Lodge is sinking in numbers) but your religious rituals are ridiculous…But then again you shouldn’t discuss this with profane me and the rest of us profane with profanities all around.

A “tolerant” organization is not one that describes the rest of humanity with the tainted word “Profane”. The fact that you couldn’t even deny on this board the Masonic belief that Speculative Freemasonry existed at the time of Ancient Egypt and the Temple of Solomon illustrates perfectly well your apparent ignorance of ancient history and blind acceptance of childish fantasies from the Lodge. At least try to make your fantasies of secret ancient societies more believable.

But then again one does get high a bit perhaps like a child when he comes on the Boards and gleefully proclaims “I know a secret, I won’t tell”. Who cares? Your choice; but in the future even if you feel comfortable calling others profane, I am asking you to stop it as it is an anti-Christian ascription, at least on a Catholic board.

 

[gamewell45]

You are most welcome. I wonder why do you consider me profane?

Thanks again for your response; I consider you to be a profane because i do not know you to be a Mason.

Anyone can maintain that they are a Mason; only after a thorough examination would I then know you to be a Brother or profane.

While I"ve never attended lodge in another country, i’ll take your advice under consideration. In all honesty, if I were to find a Koran displayed I’d have no problem with it as Masons come from many walks of life and religions, as we are not limited to Judeo/Christians to be members in our lodges in the US. The VSL, no matter what religion it is, is only on display to remind us of our obligation to God.

If i’m still not making it clear to you my justification, I’ve done as best as i can and really don’t know how to explain it any clearer.

 

[gamewell45]

And how would anyone know that since you “cannot discuss” anything about Freemasonry, not that there really is anything to discuss – what a hokey-pokey fantasy about a secret cricket club at the founding of the Temple of Solomon that grown men swear buy?

Gamewell, your words evince perfectly why Freemasonry is incompatible with Christianity – calling another believing “Christian” Profane in and of itself is patently wrong and disgraceful. I don’t believe in any wishy-washy Masonic conspiracy theories (the Lodge is sinking in numbers) but your religious rituals are ridiculous…But then again you shouldn’t discuss this with profane me and the rest of us profane with profanities all around.

A “tolerant” organization is not one that describes the rest of humanity with the tainted word “Profane”. The fact that you couldn’t even deny on this board the Masonic belief that Speculative Freemasonry existed at the time of Ancient Egypt and the Temple of Solomon illustrates perfectly well your apparent ignorance of ancient history and blind acceptance of childish fantasies from the Lodge. At least try to make your fantasies of secret ancient societies more believable.

But then again one does get high a bit perhaps like a child when he comes on the Boards and gleefully proclaims “I know a secret, I won’t tell”. Who cares? Your choice; but in the future even if you feel comfortable calling others profane, I am asking you to stop it as it is an anti-Christian ascription, at least on a Catholic board.

Andrew,

Thank you so much for your reply,

Just so you know, I don’t think I’ve pranced around "gleefully proclaiming “I know a secret, I won’t tell”. Its the posters on this thread who’ve kept bringing up the topic, not me. I am just responding to their questions and i think i’ve been very respectful. Please do not get angry nor frustrated because i’m not telling you want you want to hear. It is what it is and i’ve made this very clear as best as I can in prior posts…

While I understand your position regarding Freemasonry and my so-called lack of cooperation (my words, not yours) I think in this case, we should at least agree to disagree.

Profane, in case in you didn’t know it, is not a term of disrespect and its not intended as a pejorative rather in Masonry it indicates “A person who has not been initiated”. By no means is it anti-Christian.

Tolerance my Brother, Tolerance.

 

[PeterClatworthy]

Based on our interpretation of Freemasonry we find it to be compatible with Christianity.

Well your interpretation is wrong, plain and simple. How can you explain with any consistency your Grand Lodge’s description of God as “A supreme being”. I was not aware that the Christian, Jewish or Muslim faiths allow more than one Supreme Being?

1. How many supreme beings do you allow within your “interpretation” of Freemasonry? Or, how many “interpretations” for God do you allow might be a more accurate question?
2. When you swear a Sacred Masonic Oath, calling upon “A supreme being” as your witness, guarantor of truth to all, and the loss of your immortal soul in the event of a perjury, who is this “A supreme being?” May we have a list please?

It has to be the same “A supreme being” or else it cannot be a Sacred Masonic Oath that is acceptable to ALL of your freemasons in the lodge.

1. You do realise that your Grand Lodge is “a product of the Enlightenment?”.
2. If you do realise this fact, perhaps you would explain what the Enlightenment philosophy of the concept of God is?
3. I will save you the trouble of finding out. The God of the Enlightenment is Baruch Spinoza’s “Deus sive natura” - God is Nature - Nature is God - one and the same, indistinguishable from one another. Furthermore, your founders, the Rosicrucian Brotherhood’s description of God in the Fama Fraternis is “a welding of the spiritual and the humanist”.

These are not only incompatible with Christianity, Judaism and Islam, but are wholly anti-Christian, anti-Judaic and anti-Islamic, being a denial of God the Creator and Preserver of all things. It is also a denial of the Creation, and a denial of the immortality of the soul.

I suggest you re-interpret as soon as you can. If your are a Christian, Jew or Muslim, you really ought to examine your conscience and resign immediately.

Oh, and as an aside, none of your founders (London 1717) were freemasons. They were all “profane” as you put it.

“Upon enquiry it would appear, that all their boasted supremacy is derived from an obscure person, who lived about sixty-two years ago, and whose name is not to be found on record amongst Ancient or Modern Masons.” … "Such are the words of the most authentic history amongst Modern Masons, and beyond contradiction prove the origin of their supremacy to be a self-created assembly. Nor was a self- creation the only defect: They were defective in numbers. (SOURCE: Ahiman Rezon, by Laurence Dermott, Grand Secretary of the “Antients” Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons According to the Old Institution, published by Southwick & Hardcastle, 2 Wall Street, New York, 1805)

You are a Moderns AF&AM I believe?

The accurate answer to the question posed at the head of this thread is as follows. A Catholic can be a Moderns Freemason, but he may not be a Moderns Freemason.

 

[gamewell45]

Well your interpretation is wrong, plain and simple. How can you explain with any consistency your Grand Lodge’s description of God as “A supreme being”. I was not aware that the Christian, Jewish or Muslim faiths allow more than one Supreme Being?

1. How many supreme beings do you allow within your “interpretation” of Freemasonry? Or, how many “interpretations” for God do you allow might be a more accurate question?
2. When you swear a Sacred Masonic Oath, calling upon “A supreme being” as your witness, guarantor of truth to all, and the loss of your immortal soul in the event of a perjury, who is this “A supreme being?” May we have a list please?

It has to be the same “A supreme being” or else it cannot be a Sacred Masonic Oath that is acceptable to ALL of your freemasons in the lodge.

1. You do realise that your Grand Lodge is “a product of the Enlightenment?”.
2. If you do realise this fact, perhaps you would explain what the Enlightenment philosophy of the concept of God is?
3. I will save you the trouble of finding out. The God of the Enlightenment is Baruch Spinoza’s “Deus sive natura” - God is Nature - Nature is God - one and the same, indistinguishable from one another. Furthermore, your founders, the Rosicrucian Brotherhood’s description of God in the Fama Fraternis is “a welding of the spiritual and the humanist”.

These are not only incompatible with Christianity, Judaism and Islam, but are wholly anti-Christian, anti-Judaic and anti-Islamic, being a denial of God the Creator and Preserver of all things. It is also a denial of the Creation, and a denial of the immortality of the soul.

I suggest you re-interpret as soon as you can. If your are a Christian, Jew or Muslim, you really ought to examine your conscience and resign immediately.

Oh, and as an aside, none of your founders (London 1717) were freemasons. They were all “profane” as you put it.

You are a Moderns AF&AM I believe?

The accurate answer to the question posed at the head of this thread is as follows. A Catholic can be a Moderns Freemason, but he may not be a Moderns Freemason.

Peter, since your clandestine (to those who are not familiar with the term, in Masonry it means false or fake) I cannot discuss with you anything regarding real Freemasonry, however all the information you requested can be found on Ed Kings website, which I know you are very familiar with.