Can Catholics believe in Civil Partnerships?

[BlueShadow123]

Well to answer the question…I don’t believe anyone (gay/straight, etc) chooses who they are attracted to.

Same here. I used to think it was a choice, but not anymore. I could be proven wrong though.

 

[comrade1789]

I’m not sure what you would like to hear to make the discussion more fruitful. I am well aware of what the Church teaches on this matter. I have seen it both correctly and erroneously represented in the posts. It’s not much of a debate if we all agree. If you review the discussion you’ll see that folks with ideas different than Church teaching have not been treated with respect e.g. you are not a Christian if you believe that way. I decided to jump into the discussion. I dislike bullies. I dislike people who lack compassion or understanding of the struggles encountered by the homosexual pontificating on the issue. I am a Catholic and in good conscience dissent with the Church on this issue.

It is disrespectful to present something as Christian when it is not, it does terrible violence to those who are led into whatever error is being presented. It is a false compassion that affirms people in sin, that entices people to hand themselves over to their own sinful desires and passions, whatever those passions may be, that is a terrible injustice because it leads them away from the kingdom of God. Conscience alone does not dictate anything, as if a person’s conscience was the sole rule and measure of what is right or wrong? Relativist nonsense, Too often people want the faith to bend to them instead of themselves bend to the faith, they want Christianity to conform to the world instead of conforming the world to Christ. It is very manipulative for people to play victim and call people bullies who dare call sin, sin. It is Satan who hates homosexuals, it Satan who entices them to give themselves over to their disordered desires, just as it is Satan who entices the whole world to give themselves over to evil desires. Satan hates all of us, and wants us all to go to hell. As compassionate and merciful, and just and righteous as one wants to be, there is nothing more inhuman, brutal, vicious and unjust than affirming a sinner in their mortal sin. Period.

There are plenty of things that Christians can disagree on, but there are some real fundamentals of the faith that we must accept. The intinsic evil of abortion, the place of sex only within the sacrament of marriage, to not get these right, as Fr. John Hardon would have said, is not to understand the ABCs of Christianity. I can tell that you want to stand up for what is right, and I can respect that. But I am not going to roll over and whimper and cower away because someone got their feelings hurt in the course of calling something Christian that is definately not. What ever feeling got hurt, identify it, name it, and it will turn out to be the exact feeling that shouldn’t have gotten in the way in the first place. To label something as being Christian when it is in direct opposition to the Gospel of Christ, is to act subversively. Harsh word, but very accurate. Of course people are going to get upset when others present a gospel other than the one we have received. So many good, Christian people are being led into error, Catholic and Protestant, and the last thing the world needs is to have the Faith submit to whims and passions of men. All things are to be subjected to Christ, but too many would have it the other way around, and that is always how error spreads.

 

[comrade1789]

Voglhund:

Now that I have got the harsh stuff out of the way, and I know that I need to learn to soften my edge a bit, and for failing you in charity I am deeply sorry. I paraphrased Fr. John Hardon in my previous post, but one thing he also said was that Orthodoxy without Charity is not Christianity—in my pursuit of wanting to protect the faith that has blessed me in ways that are beyond description, I can see where I have sinned against charity in the process.

However, the position stands. It is an issue that engages the passions of all involved, and I can see we both want what will bring justice and happiness to homosexuals. Homosexuals and all people find perfect justice and happiness and fulfillment only in Christ. And how do we know if we are in Christ? We do what he says. Same sex unions are rebellion against God and his word. As any recovering addict can tell you, it is very easy to manufacture the presence of the Holy Spirit, to deceive ourselves into thinking that we are in union with Christ and that our activities are sanctified. So of course we know people who are living in mortal sin and yet they claim to be in union with him. In fact, we may even have been there ourselves. I know I have. But when we stop shaking our fists at God and his teachings, and confess our sins as sinful and repent and turn to him, he is faithful to forgive us and instruct us in the ways we should go.

 

[voglhund]

You raise good points.
"The American Psychiatric Association’s definition of homosexuality as an illness in its second Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (1968) provided crucial underpinnings for federal discrimination against homosexuals. From the late 1940s, civil laws had in many states criminalized homosexuality defining it as a sexual pathology and providing imprisonment and institutionalization as punishment. A core of American psychiatrists and psychologists provided written arguments supporting the definition of homosexuality as an illness. "

As you can see, certain outcomes occurred not because of prejudice but because of the experts who studied human beings and their behaviors. Today, we rely on experts who may or may not subject any of us to certain treatments.
Animals do not have human cognition. We can train them to a point but that’s it. They operate on what we call instinct. It is incorrect to compare animals to human beings, especially on a psychological/behavioral level.
For Catholics, at least, self control and self mastery have real world and spiritual benefits. Consider the fact that prior to The Pill, the average number of kids in my neighborhood was two. By controlling our sexual desires, we can eliminate our exposure to STDs and assure our spouse that we are committed to them and family life. The current error that is being heavily marketed is that no one has sexual self control and let’s just keep handing out condoms. That is reinforced by laughing at abstinance, once again, as if No One Has Any Self Control. Do you believe you have no sexual self control? Seriously, human sexuality, and its misuse, is the greatest problem facing the West today.

Peace,
Ed

It is point #2 that I wish to address. In science we can and do compare human and animal behavior. As the previously posted links indicate homosexual behavior in nature is an observable phenomenon. Animals do in fact follow their insticts. This is part of natural law. There is no morality. There is no psychology. Just because science hasn’t found the biological cause of homosexuality doesn’t mean that it won’t be found. A reasonable person can conclude that if homosexuality exists in nature where there can be no psychological causation and moral implications then it can also be true for human beings.

I agree with point #3 that human beings are called to self-control. As a christian I believe that the homosexual as well as the heterosexual should remain chaste both before and after marriage. I have no problem exhorted homosexuals to a monogomous chaste life with his/her spouse.

 

[mgreen77]

Animals do in fact follow their insticts. This is part of natural law. There is no morality. There is no psychology.

I’d SO argue this. Have you ever talked to cats? Commanded dogs? They know what you’re saying, they have their own sense of “right and wrong.” They debate which to do, whether it be to scratch the couch or not, bathroom on the carpet or not, rip apart that pillow or not… they debate and decide. Ever see the sheepish, guilty pout of a dog who knows he did wrong? The annoyed ears-back of a cat who “doesn’t want to hear it?” Ever yell at a dog to “stop!” only to have him hesitate and look back for second, debate the consquences, then do it anyway?

I just brought home a new kitty a few days ago, and I’ve been watching her and my other kitty work out their relationship. It’s fascinating! No psychology? Oh contrare! They negotiate, test one another, re-negotiate, experiment… I could write a book, lol.

I dunno, I sometimes think I “get” animals more than people, lol…

 

[voglhund]

It is disrespectful to present something as Christian when it is not, it does terrible violence to those who are led into whatever error is being presented. It is a false compassion that affirms people in sin, that entices people to hand themselves over to their own sinful desires and passions, whatever those passions may be, that is a terrible injustice because it leads them away from the kingdom of God. Conscience alone does not dictate anything, as if a person’s conscience was the sole rule and measure of what is right or wrong? Relativist nonsense, Too often people want the faith to bend to them instead of themselves bend to the faith, they want Christianity to conform to the world instead of conforming the world to Christ. It is very manipulative for people to play victim and call people bullies who dare call sin, sin. It is Satan who hates homosexuals, it Satan who entices them to give themselves over to their disordered desires, just as it is Satan who entices the whole world to give themselves over to evil desires. Satan hates all of us, and wants us all to go to hell. As compassionate and merciful, and just and righteous as one wants to be, there is nothing more inhuman, brutal, vicious and unjust than affirming a sinner in their mortal sin. Period.

Thank you for both of your posts. I think that I have accurately communicated the Church’s teachings in my posts. I have also expressed my opinions on the matter which I do with 30 years experience in studying the matter. I do not take my dissent with the Church on this lightly. Our sexuality is essental to who we are as human beings. Through it we encounter the world around us and God. If you haven’t already read it I recommend Human Sexuality: All All-Embracing Gift by Gerald Coleman. His discussion on homosexuality is also scholarly sound. I do not minimize the importance of obedience to the Church’s teaching. But I also remind you of the importance and primancy of conscience in Catholic moral theology. It cannot be overlooked, minimized, or discounted in our discussion.

 

[edwest2]

Thank you for both of your posts. I think that I have accurately communicated the Church’s teachings in my posts. I have also expressed my opinions on the matter which I do with 30 years experience in studying the matter. I do not take my dissent with the Church on this lightly. Our sexuality is essental to who we are as human beings. Through it we encounter the world around us and God. If you haven’t already read it I recommend Human Sexuality: All All-Embracing Gift by Gerald Coleman. His discussion on homosexuality is also scholarly sound. I do not minimize the importance of obedience to the Church’s teaching. But I also remind you of the importance and primancy of conscience in Catholic moral theology. It cannot be overlooked, minimized, or discounted in our discussion.

Year in and year out, experts tell us things. It has been my experience that after a short time, a new set of experts tells us the exact opposite of what the previous group said.

The Church asks us, Is there truth? The Church examines important subjects, including human sexuality, and renders her decision, with clear explanation. Perhaps there is something the Church has said that some find confusing or, because an expert has said something that seems to make more sense than what the Church teaches, this expert has caused confusion.

In any case, the Catholic Church is the largest truth telling institution in the world. Her words need to be considered with a properly formed conscience.

Peace,
Ed

 

[comrade1789]

Thank you for both of your posts. I think that I have accurately communicated the Church’s teachings in my posts. I have also expressed my opinions on the matter which I do with 30 years experience in studying the matter. I do not take my dissent with the Church on this lightly. Our sexuality is essental to who we are as human beings. Through it we encounter the world around us and God. If you haven’t already read it I recommend Human Sexuality: All All-Embracing Gift by Gerald Coleman. His discussion on homosexuality is also scholarly sound. I do not minimize the importance of obedience to the Church’s teaching. But I also remind you of the importance and primancy of conscience in Catholic moral theology. It cannot be overlooked, minimized, or discounted in our discussion.

I am confused a bit though, because listening to recordings of lectures given by the late Fr. John Hardon, S.J. in regards to homosexual acts, he says we can always say it is a mortal sin. For those who don’t know who Fr. John Hardon was, according to a short bio from hardonsj.org/biography besides having doctorate in theology,teaching moral theology and many other subjects, he authored “The Catholic Catechism (1975). This work stands as a defining contribution to Catholic orthodoxy, written at the request of His Holiness, Pope Paul VI, with whom Fr. Hardon had a close working relationship. Fr. Hardon also wrote the Modern Catholic Dictionary (1980), a detailed Catholic reference dictionary. He served as the executive editor of The Catholic Faith magazine, editor of Gospel Witness, and a contributing editor of Challenge magazine, London and Canada. Fr. Hardon also served as a consultant for the drafting of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, written by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) and promulgated by His Holiness, Pope John Paul II in 1992.”

This being said, you can listen to his lecture at therealpresence.org/archives/MP3/0023/0023014.mp3 lectures Series 023 - Catholic Morality and Homosexuality (1997) Lecture # 014 – May 18, 1997 Part 2 - (46:58)

He stated: “According to the church’s infallible teaching, a person engaging in homosexual behavior acts immorally, contrary to the will of God. Through the centuries the Church has never questioned the moral varity, the mortal sin of deliberate, conscious homosexual acts.”