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DJWhamo
Guest
I know that amillennialist eschatology is ok by Church standards, but is that the official stance of the church? Is it possible to believe in post-mill, and still be within the Church’s teachings?
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jason56716
Guest
I am curious to why you ask this.
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Cathoholic
Guest
No.
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DJWhamo
Guest
Well, at the risk of being blunt, I ask because I don’t know the answer and would like to. I admire post-mill; it’s a theology of hope, and one which encourages people to work for the greater good. I don’t know how scriptural it is, granted, but I could say that about the other schools of thought on the matter- I’m simply not very versed on the subject. I do know post-mill was an influential factor in many social movements prior to WWI. If it isn’t accepted by the Church, could someone please give a citation?
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DavidFilmer
Guest
With all the hype that protestants devote to End Days teaching, one might suppose that the Catholic Church has some measure of official teaching.
An Office of the Church has spoken against some forms of premillennialism. A sentence or two. To my knowledge, that’s the extent of official teaching (and I have confidence that I’m correct - I have made this assertion here many times, and nobody has ever corrected me). And that tiny bit of teaching is not relevant to your question.
Postmillennialism has neither been accepted nor condemned by the Church. Someone is free to accept such ideas “within reason,” but nobody can claim that their idea is truth (only the Church can do that).
An Office of the Church has spoken against some forms of premillennialism. A sentence or two. To my knowledge, that’s the extent of official teaching (and I have confidence that I’m correct - I have made this assertion here many times, and nobody has ever corrected me). And that tiny bit of teaching is not relevant to your question.
Postmillennialism has neither been accepted nor condemned by the Church. Someone is free to accept such ideas “within reason,” but nobody can claim that their idea is truth (only the Church can do that).
C
Cathoholic
Guest
The problem with postmillennial eschatology is that it teaches a mere earthly kingdom of
Jesus being established on earth. This is called “Millenarianism”.
This mere earthly kingdom that the rapturists will try to put in people’s minds also usually includes resumption of Old Covenant animal sacrifices. This is a subtle denial of the sufficiency of the work of Christ.
CCC 676 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.578
JOHN 18:36a (RSV) 36 Jesus answered, "My kingship is not of this world . . .
JOHN 18:36a (NIV) Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. . . .
King Jesus does not come to build a mere kingdom of this world. But the temptation and pride of man, keeps desiring an earthly political kingdom (“yeah I can do politics”). But it denies a Heavenly Kingdom (“That’d be a “God-Kingdom” not a “ME kingdom”—I don’t do that).
Jesus being established on earth. This is called “Millenarianism”.
This mere earthly kingdom that the rapturists will try to put in people’s minds also usually includes resumption of Old Covenant animal sacrifices. This is a subtle denial of the sufficiency of the work of Christ.
CCC 676 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.578
JOHN 18:36a (RSV) 36 Jesus answered, "My kingship is not of this world . . .
JOHN 18:36a (NIV) Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. . . .
King Jesus does not come to build a mere kingdom of this world. But the temptation and pride of man, keeps desiring an earthly political kingdom (“yeah I can do politics”). But it denies a Heavenly Kingdom (“That’d be a “God-Kingdom” not a “ME kingdom”—I don’t do that).
- Christ already rules the world as the head of His Church.
- Jesus already established His Kingdom on earth, Himself and His Church (that He is united to forever . . . as a husband is His Bride). But it is not a “kingdom of this world.”
- Jesus’ saving sacrifice was and is “Once For ALL” and it is infinitely sufficient (resumption of animal sacrifices need not apply).
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TRH1292
Guest
It would depend on how it was defined, there have been many types of Post-Mil thought.I know that amillennialist eschatology is ok by Church standards, but is that the official stance of the church? Is it possible to believe in post-mill, and still be within the Church’s teachings?
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jason56716
Guest
Now I may be way off base on Catholic teaching, and welcome a correction from any Catholic who can prove I am wrong on my understanding, but we are now living in the so called ‘millineum’ now. The Book of Revelation for the most part takes place outside of time because much of it takes place in Heaven. Satan’s initial defeat in the book of Revelation was Christ’s death and Ressaurection. Satan is currently ‘chained’ and will be released again at the end of time and Christ will defeat him once and for all at the end of the ‘millineum’. It is at this time that the so called ‘Rapture’ will occur when those who have died in Christ will be reunited with thier earthly bodies in the great ressaurection, and will stand in general judgement along with all those still alive.
The key here to remember is that the ‘millineum’ is not a literal 1000 years, but rather a allegory for a very long time. Again, I welcome any correction from anyone who has the correct Catholic understanding of this.
The key here to remember is that the ‘millineum’ is not a literal 1000 years, but rather a allegory for a very long time. Again, I welcome any correction from anyone who has the correct Catholic understanding of this.
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DavidFilmer
Guest
As would I. But the problem that we both share is that there is simply NO “Catholic understanding” to be had.Again, I welcome any correction from anyone who has the correct Catholic understanding of this.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
jason56716. You stated:
DJWhamo
You asked:
If “post-mill” means asserting a mere earthly kingdom, it is torpedoing what the Church teaches (that’s millenarianism).
If “post-mill” means in any way a need to re-institute animal sacrifices, no this could not be Catholic.
If by “post-mill” someone means Jesus comes again . . . . not . . . . in glory NOT to Judge the living and the dead, . . . . but . . . . to float believers (the Church on earth) away to Heaven and not follow in the footsteps of their Lord’s passion (see CCC 677—“only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.”) this likewise would not be Catholic. This is what today’s “dispensationalists” mean when they say “the rapture”.
If by “rapture” you are alluding to Jesus’ second coming when He DOES come in glory to judge the living and the dead (etc.) that would be fine. But don’t expect many Protestants to agree with you (except some Traditional Protestants who share the Catholic view on these things).
Do you mean something else than the above by “post-mill” eschatology?
Please consider reading the CCC paragraphs 659-682.
God bless.
Cathoholic
Now I may be way off base on Catholic teaching, and welcome a correction from any Catholic who can prove I am wrong on my understanding, but we are now living in the so called ‘millineum’ now. The Book of Revelation for the most part takes place outside of time because much of it takes place in Heaven. Satan’s initial defeat in the book of Revelation was Christ’s death and Ressaurection. Satan is currently ‘chained’ and will be released again at the end of time and Christ will defeat him once and for all at the end of the ‘millineum’. It is at this time that the so called ‘Rapture’ will occur when those who have died in Christ will be reunited with thier earthly bodies in the great ressaurection, and will stand in general judgement along with all those still alive.
I think this is a very Catholic understanding.The key here to remember is that the ‘millineum’ is not a literal 1000 years, but rather a allegory for a very long time. Again, I welcome any correction from anyone who has the correct Catholic understanding of this.
DJWhamo
You asked:
If anything that you are calling “post-mill” were a literal 1000 years it would not make sense (see CCC 663-665).Is it possible to believe in post-mill, and still be within the Church’s teachings?
If “post-mill” means asserting a mere earthly kingdom, it is torpedoing what the Church teaches (that’s millenarianism).
If “post-mill” means in any way a need to re-institute animal sacrifices, no this could not be Catholic.
If by “post-mill” someone means Jesus comes again . . . . not . . . . in glory NOT to Judge the living and the dead, . . . . but . . . . to float believers (the Church on earth) away to Heaven and not follow in the footsteps of their Lord’s passion (see CCC 677—“only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.”) this likewise would not be Catholic. This is what today’s “dispensationalists” mean when they say “the rapture”.
If by “rapture” you are alluding to Jesus’ second coming when He DOES come in glory to judge the living and the dead (etc.) that would be fine. But don’t expect many Protestants to agree with you (except some Traditional Protestants who share the Catholic view on these things).
Do you mean something else than the above by “post-mill” eschatology?
Please consider reading the CCC paragraphs 659-682.
God bless.
Cathoholic
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