Can Catholics believe that marital sex is incompatible with holiness?

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I figure I should probably explain my suggestion that the Church has adopted a Protestant understanding of marriage and sex. It’s really quite simple.

The Early Church Fathers viewed marriage and marital sex in a negative light. This is a historical fact. To deny this is no different than denying that Joseph Smith advocated polygamy. It would be foolish to suggest that, because we have his own writings that clearly demonstrate his promotion of polygamy. In the same way, the writings of the Early Church Fathers clearly demonstrate this attitude.

However, within the last few hunderd years, a different outlook has emerged. St. Francis de Sales asserts in the Introduction to the Devout Life that marriage is holy in all its parts, and that marital intercourse is holy, commendible, and good for the commonwealth. This pattern continues to the modern day, where respected priests like Father Corapi assert that in the marital act, “couples enter the holy of holies and cooperate with God in the creation of new life.” We also have Pope John Paul II’s Theology of the Body, which is a very positive understanding of marriage and the marital act. What changed? I think that perhaps it was the influence of the Protestant Reformation.

Protestant Christians naturally better predisposed to having a high view of marriage than Catholic Christians. The fact that Protestants do not regard marriage as a sacrament is a red herring, since this stems from the fact that Protestants have a different understanding of sacraments and justification, not from teachings about marriage. The reasons that Protestants are predisposed to having a higher view of marriage stems from several things. First, Protestants focus their doctrines on what was specifically found in the Bible. As a result, they are far more likely to be influenced by the writings in the Old Testament, which are very positive about marriage, than Catholic Christians. Second, Protestant Christians rejected the writings of the Church Fathers, so they were less likely to be influenced by their negativity toward these subjects. Lastly, they rejected devotion to the saints. Instead of the saints, they focused their attention to the holy people of the Bible, including the Old Testament, most of whom were married. Protestant theology and practices helped them (and still do) to look at marriage and the marital act in a very positive light.

St. Thomas Aquinas studied Jewish and pagan Greek philosophers, incorperating their writings into his own. I think it’s possible that something similar happened in this case. Now, this is just a guess on my part, since I can’t provide any evidence. It might simply be a correlation, or a coincidence. But I simply find it an odd coincidence that, as Protestant Christianity emerged (which naturally affirms the goodness of marriage), Catholics suddenly had a more positive take on marriage and marital sex.
 
I figure I should probably explain my suggestion that the Church has adopted a Protestant understanding of marriage and sex. It’s really quite simple.

The Early Church Fathers viewed marriage and marital sex in a negative light. This is a historical fact. To deny this is no different than denying that Joseph Smith advocated polygamy. It would be foolish to suggest that, because we have his own writings that clearly demonstrate his promotion of polygamy. In the same way, the writings of the Early Church Fathers clearly demonstrate this attitude.

However, within the last few hunderd years, a different outlook has emerged. St. Francis de Sales asserts in the Introduction to the Devout Life that marriage is holy in all its parts, and that marital intercourse is holy, commendible, and good for the commonwealth. This pattern continues to the modern day, where respected priests like Father Corapi assert that in the marital act, “couples enter the holy of holies and cooperate with God in the creation of new life.” We also have Pope John Paul II’s Theology of the Body, which is a very positive understanding of marriage and the marital act. What changed? I think that perhaps it was the influence of the Protestant Reformation.

Protestant Christians naturally better predisposed to having a high view of marriage than Catholic Christians. The fact that Protestants do not regard marriage as a sacrament is a red herring, since this stems from the fact that Protestants have a different understanding of sacraments and justification, not from teachings about marriage. The reasons that Protestants are predisposed to having a higher view of marriage stems from several things. First, Protestants focus their doctrines on what was specifically found in the Bible. As a result, they are far more likely to be influenced by the writings in the Old Testament, which are very positive about marriage, than Catholic Christians. Second, Protestant Christians rejected the writings of the Church Fathers, so they were less likely to be influenced by their negativity toward these subjects. Lastly, they rejected devotion to the saints. Instead of the saints, they focused their attention to the holy people of the Bible, including the Old Testament, most of whom were married. Protestant theology and practices helped them (and still do) to look at marriage and the marital act in a very positive light.

St. Thomas Aquinas studied Jewish and pagan Greek philosophers, incorperating their writings into his own. I think it’s possible that something similar happened in this case. Now, this is just a guess on my part, since I can’t provide any evidence. It might simply be a correlation, or a coincidence. But I simply find it an odd coincidence that, as Protestant Christianity emerged (which naturally affirms the goodness of marriage), Catholics suddenly had a more positive take on marriage and marital sex.
Again I disagree with you. From the very New Testament times…the Catholic Church valued marriage…and did not view it “negatively”. Certainly certain individuals etc did not always have a fully developed view and could have personally had a somewhat negative view (the Church while she accepts and promotes the good writings of such persons…does not accept the parts that are not correct…or misunderstandings of such writings)…and one must understand that some even very great men made mistakes in thinking on certain matters… But from the get go…even from Paul it was viewed as good.

Actually with the rise of Protestantism…Marriage in many places took a dive…ceasing to be a Sacrament (as the Church taught)… So no… Protestantism did not raise Marriage in the Catholic Church…it was indeed seen by the Church as good and a Sacrament…

But yes…as time goes by…we deepen our appreciation and understanding of the greatness of Marriage…(all within the Church herself).

crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/167/Christian_Marriage____Tertullian.html
 
St. John Chrysostom suggests that young husbands should say to their wives: I have taken you in my arms, and I love you, and I prefer you to my life itself. For the present life is nothing, and my most ardent dream is to spend it with you in such a way that we may be assured of not being separated in the life reserved for us… I place your love above all things, and nothing would be more bitter or painful to me than to be of a different mind than you. (§ 2365 CCC)
 
There are three forms of the virtue of chastity: the first is that of spouses, the second that of widows, and the third that of virgins. We do not praise any one of them to the exclusion of the others. . . . This is what makes for the richness of the discipline of the Church.

St. Ambrose, De viduis 4,23:PL 16,255A Quoted in CCC. ( 4th Century…300’s)
 
Just because an early church father or saint thought it doesn’t necessarily make it always true (nor does it mean it’s heretical unless officially defined later).

Several early Saints (Gregory of Nyssa, Clement of Alexandria, etc.) believed in universal reconciliation that all would eventually be saved, and while Augustine strictly denied this position, he did not consider them (or the many Christians with this view at this time) heretics, but rather Christions with and amicable disagreement. I think any detailed search of Saints beliefs will show some contradications and not all contradictions are heresy.
 
Actually with the rise of Protestantism…Marriage in many places took a dive…ceasing to be a Sacrament (as the Church taught)… So no… Protestantism did not raise Marriage in the Catholic Church…it was indeed seen by the Church as good and a Sacrament…
Protestants don’t view marriage as a sacrament.

So what?

That doesn’t mean they can’t have a higher view of marriage than Catholics.

They don’t view marriage as a sacrament because they don’t have a Catholic understanding of sacraments, not because they don’t think marriage is important.

The whole “Protestants don’t view marriage as a sacrament” is a red herring.
 
Protestants don’t view marriage as a sacrament.

So what? Well to move from understanding Marriage as a Sacrament to it not being one…is in effect downgrading the nature of Marriage…you were saying that the Protestant movement raised Marriage…but in fact it went the other way …

That doesn’t mean they can’t have a higher view of marriage than Catholics.

They simply do not…we have had a high view…just cause it is now more deeply understood (as are many things) does not mean Protestantism was the cause…it was actually internal deeping…by the Holy Spirit etc that was largely the cause…

They don’t view marriage as a sacrament because they don’t have a Catholic understanding of sacraments, not because they don’t think marriage is important.

The whole “Protestants don’t view marriage as a sacrament” is a red herring.

tis not…

humm…Well the The idea that the Protestant view of Marriage is “better” than the Catholic …is a green salmon 🙂
 
This is such a wonderful quote from a 4th Century Church Father that really sums things up nicely…which is a good reason why it was included now in the Catechism:

“There are three forms of the virtue of chastity: the first is that of spouses, the second that of widows, and the third that of virgins. We do not praise any one of them to the exclusion of the others. . . . This is what makes for the richness of the discipline of the Church.”

St. Ambrose, De viduis 4,23:PL 16,255A Quoted in CCC. ( 4th Century…300’s)

I think that says it quite nicely.

There are various ways to Follow Christ in the Church…yes some are better than others for various reasons…but all are good and some are even Sacraments…as Paul says…each ones gifts differ…

Marital relations is not per se “incompatible” with holiness. In fact …when one is “in Christ” in a living way…one is a saint. Made Holy by Christ. Of course then one seeks by his grace to become more and more holy…but marriage can be one of those very ways of doing so…
 
Protestants don’t view marriage as a sacrament.

So what? Well to move from understanding Marriage as a Sacrament to it not being one…is in effect downgrading the nature of Marriage…you were saying that the Protestant movement raised Marriage…but in fact it went the other way …
I beg to differ. I don’t deny that many of them went way too far in their assertions (such as John Calvin’s assertion that any man who didn’t marry was guilty of robbing a husband from a woman, and vice versa). However, it was actually being unmarried that took a dive in Protestant culture, as expressed in the quote above, especially for women. Being unmarried did not hold any spiritual value for the Protestants, since they have no religious orders or celibate clergy. Furthermore, they would have been encouraged to admire the holy figures of the Bible, rather than Christian saints. A Protestant girl would have been encouraged to emulate Sarah, Rebecca, Leah, and Rachael, Ruth, and Esther (all married women) rather than Ss. Agatha, Agnes, Barbara, Catherine and Lucy (all unmarried women). Indeed, Protestant girls still are. (I was. I was even named for one of them.) In short, they would never have grown up with the idea that being married stunted their spiritual growth, or that being married made them second class citizens either on earth or in heaven.

As I said on a previous post, this put unmarried women (and men to a lesser extent) in a very difficult position, but married couples’ status within the Church was raised.
That doesn’t mean they can’t have a higher view of marriage than Catholics.

They simply do not…we have had a high view…just cause it is now more deeply understood (as are many things) does not mean Protestantism was the cause…it was actually internal deeping…by the Holy Spirit etc that was largely the cause…
They actually do. Protestants view mariage as a higher state than single life and did away with celibacy/religious life/consecrated virginity. In Protestant theology and practice, choosing to stay single does not grant one a higher state in life, or mean that one is following a higher vocation. Marriage in Protestant theology may not be a sacrament, but consecrated virginity/celibacy in Protestantism doesn’t even exist!
They don’t view marriage as a sacrament because they don’t have a Catholic understanding of sacraments, not because they don’t think marriage is important.

The whole “Protestants don’t view marriage as a sacrament” is a red herring.

tis not…

humm…Well the The idea that the Protestant view of Marriage is “better” than the Catholic …is a green salmon 🙂
I prefer my salmon pink, and fresh from Alaska when I can get it. 🙂

And yes, the sacrament/non sacrament nature of marriage is a red herring.

Think of it this way. Mormons (who are not Christians) do not believe that marriage is a sacrament. However, they believe that everyone must get married in order to reach the highest level of heaven. They believe that marriage is essential to salvation and to becoming gods and goddesses in the next life. They also believe that their marriages lasts forever, not just until death.

Now I’m not saying Mormons are right. In fact, I think it’s rather an insane idea. (Why anybody would want to be married for eternity without the assurances of divorce attorneys in heaven is beyond me!) But I have no problem saying that Mormons have a higher view of marriage than Catholics (or indeed, all Christians) do.
 
As I said on a previous post, this put unmarried women (and men to a lesser extent) in a very difficult position, but married couples’ status within the Church was raised.

oh…you mean in protestantism…sure if you act contrary to the Scriptures and put marriage higher than celebacy… you “raise it”…but in such a way that is not really raising it…

They actually do. Protestants view mariage as a higher state than single life and did away with celibacy/religious life/consecrated virginity. In Protestant theology and practice, choosing to stay single does not grant one a higher state in life, or mean that one is following a higher vocation. Marriage in Protestant theology may not be a sacrament, but consecrated virginity/celibacy in Protestantism doesn’t even exist!

yes again if you say cut out one thing …you artificially ‘raise’
another…but that does not do good for that other if it such raising is contrary to reality

I prefer my salmon pink, and fresh from Alaska when I can get it. 🙂

And yes, the sacrament/non sacrament nature of marriage is a red herring. nope

Think of it this way. Mormons (who are not Christians) do not believe that marriage is a sacrament. However, they believe that everyone must get married in order to reach the highest level of heaven. They believe that marriage is essential to salvation and to becoming gods and goddesses in the next life. They also believe that their marriages lasts forever, not just until death.

Now I’m not saying Mormons are right. In fact, I think it’s rather an insane idea. (Why anybody would want to be married for eternity without the assurances of divorce attorneys in heaven is beyond me!) But I have no problem saying that Mormons have a higher view of marriage than Catholics (or indeed, all Christians) do.

Nope not a higher …but an untrue view …which does not do marriage a service
 
No, he doesn’t not say (engaging in sex is bad). If fact He says the opposite. (form article 3)
For ourselves, we do not follow the views of Marcion and Manichæus, and disparage marriage; nor, deceived by the error of Tatian, the leader of the Encratites, do we think all intercourse impure
Pardon my irreverence, but the first thing that popped into my head was a girl who said, “My dad’s not a racist, he just hates black people.” St. Jerome in the quote that I cited says "If it is good not to touch a woman, it is bad to touch one: for there is no opposite to goodness but badness. But if it be bad and the evil is pardoned, the reason for the concession is to prevent worse evil. St. Jerome Against Jovinianus, chapter 7.

In other words, “If it is good not to touch a woman, then it must be bad to touch one. However, God pardons the evil becaue He wants to prevent a worse evil.” If there’s another way to interpret this quote please explain.

In other words, “I don’t think sex is impure; I just think it’s bad.” Notice also that he doesn’t say that sex within marriage is good; he says it is pardonable. He calls fornication a “worse evil,” which means that sex within marriage is a “lesser evil.”
God is good and does not tolerate any sin. Your claim to the contrary is fallacious.
It’s not my claim; it’s St. Jerome’s claim. St. Jerome specifically says that St. Paul allows for marriage because of the sin of fornication. St. Jerome says that God allows a sin (sex within marriage) in order to prevent a worse sin (sex outside of marriage.)
Because they are not heresy. You have misinterpreted Jerome to say things he did not say.
If there’s another way to interpret the quotes please do so. But I refuse to do violence to the text to force him to say that sex within marriage is good, **when he clearly does not say that. **
 
As I said on a previous post, this put unmarried women (and men to a lesser extent) in a very difficult position, but married couples’ status within the Church was raised.

oh…you mean in protestantism…sure if you act contrary to the Scriptures and put marriage higher than celebacy… you “raise it”…but in such a way that is not really raising it…

They actually do. Protestants view mariage as a higher state than single life and did away with celibacy/religious life/consecrated virginity. In Protestant theology and practice, choosing to stay single does not grant one a higher state in life, or mean that one is following a higher vocation. Marriage in Protestant theology may not be a sacrament, but consecrated virginity/celibacy in Protestantism doesn’t even exist!

yes again if you say cut out one thing …you artificially ‘raise’
another…but that does not do good for that other if it such raising is contrary to reality

I prefer my salmon pink, and fresh from Alaska when I can get it. 🙂

And yes, the sacrament/non sacrament nature of marriage is a red herring. nope

Think of it this way. Mormons (who are not Christians) do not believe that marriage is a sacrament. However, they believe that everyone must get married in order to reach the highest level of heaven. They believe that marriage is essential to salvation and to becoming gods and goddesses in the next life. They also believe that their marriages lasts forever, not just until death.

Now I’m not saying Mormons are right. In fact, I think it’s rather an insane idea. (Why anybody would want to be married for eternity without the assurances of divorce attorneys in heaven is beyond me!) But I have no problem saying that Mormons have a higher view of marriage than Catholics (or indeed, all Christians) do.

Nope not a higher …but an untrue view …which does not do marriage a service
Ok. How exactly is the sacramental nature of marriage not a red herring? Keep in mind that the Church teaches that those who do not receive the sacrament will probably be less holy than those who don’t. What other sacrament decreases a person’s chances for holiness? Does a non-confirmed person have a better chance of being holy than a person who is confirmed, as those who forgo marriage do? Does a non-confirmed person receive special rewards in heaven, as St. Thomas Aquinas says that virgins do? How exactly do these teachings express a high view of marriage?
 
oh…you mean in protestantism…sure if you act contrary to the Scriptures and put marriage higher than celebacy… you “raise it”…but in such a way that is not really raising it…

yes again if you say cut out one thing …you artificially ‘raise’
another…but that does not do good for that other if it such raising is contrary to reality
In terms of simple prestige, a person is better off being unmarried in the Catholic Church, but married in a Protestant church.
 
Keep in mind that the Church teaches that those who do not receive the sacrament will probably be less holy than those who don’t.

Such Not the teaching of the Catholic Church…actually contrary to the Teaching of the Church

What other sacrament decreases a person’s chances for holiness?

such is not the view of the Church…

all are called to holiness …and in fact starting with baptism one is already “holy”…one is of course to grow in this…following Christ…but the Church is not going to say "those who do not receive the sacrament will prob. be less holy than those who do…
 
Keep in mind that the Church teaches that those who do not receive the sacrament will probably be less holy than those who don’t.

Such Not the teaching of the Catholic Church…actually contrary to the Teaching of the Church

What other sacrament decreases a person’s chances for holiness?

such is not the view of the Church…
Excuse me, does the Church not teach that those who become consecrated priests or nuns can reach a higher degree of holiness than those who do not?
 
Excuse me, does the Church not teach that those who become consecrated priests or nuns can reach a higher degree of holiness than those who do not?
A married woman can reach a higher state of holiness than a Carmelite nun!
 
Catechism:

2013 “All Christians in any state or walk of life are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity.” All are called to holiness: “Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
 
It really comes down to a matter of personal vocation…

all are made holy in baptism…and are called to be holy…

one can become a great saint in married life…or in the cloister…

it can happen that a married woman with 6 kids ends up holier than
a Nun who was in a convent for years and years…

this is not to lessen the great gift of the latter state in life…

each though much follow Christ…

a state of life…such as being a Carthusian is certainly a very high and rare calling…but just by being in that state…does not make for automatic holiness…though it certainly can help in living a holy life…for the life is very ordered to this goal…

but again as Paul would say …each to his gift.
 
This is not to say that Virginity for the “Sake of the Kingdom” (not just single life…) is not to be highly esteemed…

but doing so does not mean that those called to marriage can not reach “high holiness” nor that a Celibate Priest is going to end up holier in fact than a married man like St. Thomas More…

Each to his or her call! What matters most is that all follow Christ …putting their hand to the plow and not looking back…

CCC:

Virginity for the sake of the Kingdom

1618 Christ is the center of all Christian life. The bond with him takes precedence over all other bonds, familial or social.113 From the very beginning of the Church there have been men and women who have renounced the great good of marriage to follow the Lamb wherever he goes, to be intent on the things of the Lord, to seek to please him, and to go out to meet the Bridegroom who is coming.114 Christ himself has invited certain persons to follow him in this way of life, of which he remains the model:
Code:
"For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it."115
1619 Virginity for the sake of the kingdom of heaven is an unfolding of baptismal grace, a powerful sign of the supremacy of the bond with Christ and of the ardent expectation of his return, a sign which also recalls that marriage is a reality of this present age which is passing away.116

1620 Both the sacrament of Matrimony and virginity for the Kingdom of God come from the Lord himself. It is he who gives them meaning and grants them the grace which is indispensable for living them out in conformity with his will.117 Esteem of virginity for the sake of the kingdom118 and the Christian understanding of marriage are inseparable, and they reinforce each other:
Code:
Whoever denigrates marriage also diminishes the glory of virginity. Whoever praises it makes virginity more admirable and resplendent. What appears good only in comparison with evil would not be truly good. The most excellent good is something even better than what is admitted to be good.119
(the last part is a quote from an early Church Father by the way…)
 
…Christian spouses, in virtue of the sacrament of Matrimony, whereby they signify and partake of the mystery of that unity and fruitful love which exists between Christ and His Church,(Cf. Eph. 5:32.) help each other to attain to holiness in their married life and in the rearing and education of their children. By reason of their state and rank in life they have their own special gift among the people of God (Cf. 1 Cor. 7, 7).

Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen Gentium 11 Second Vatican Council
 
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