L
leonhardprintz
Guest
Nonsense! I renounce the Devil, all of his works and all of his being.
- Status
C
CRM_Brother
Guest
The Renewal of Baptismal Promises does not include “all of his being”. It is “all of his empty promises”. It is a renunciation of the work of the devil, not the devil’s very existence, which is a participation in the existence of God. God sustains even the devil as a creation, whatever his choices. As such, there is at least that modicum of good in his being. We must treat that small reflection of God with the respect it deserves, just as we treat our fellow brother and sister sinners with the respect due to them.
L
leonhardprintz
Guest
If you wanna split words you should have referred to the latin instead of the english. Then it would be “Et omnibus pompis eius?”, basically “And all his pomp?”
I get what you mean, but I wouldn’t approach it the way you do. I don’t pity the Devil. His punishment is just and fair, and its good and proper, and something we can give thanks to God for. If anyone should talk about the good of the Devil, it should only be only to highlight the evil he did, and the tragedy his malice, hatred and envy of man’s position brought about.
I won’t say a single prayer for the Evil One, or shed a single tear.
Last edited:
R
Roguish
Guest
Hatred is not a very well defined feeling or emotion. Nevertheless we can say that to abhor evil, even to be disgusted by it, is not only allowed but quite appropriate.
Forgiveness does not apply. Forgiveness is for men, or more generally for creatures with free will. Satan isn’t one. It is not only not right to “forgive” Satan, it is quite impossible. The wish to forgive him betrays a flawed understanding of what evil really is, and (therefore) how evil evil really is. Evil is not unfriendliness or bad manners or nastiness of character; it is something of an entirely different order, and once it is clearly understood the idea of forgiving it becomes obviously inappropriate.
Forgiveness does not apply. Forgiveness is for men, or more generally for creatures with free will. Satan isn’t one. It is not only not right to “forgive” Satan, it is quite impossible. The wish to forgive him betrays a flawed understanding of what evil really is, and (therefore) how evil evil really is. Evil is not unfriendliness or bad manners or nastiness of character; it is something of an entirely different order, and once it is clearly understood the idea of forgiving it becomes obviously inappropriate.
Last edited:
R
RandomAlias
Guest
When we hate Satan, we are, to some extent, giving ourselves to him. We fix our attention on him, we let our mind dwell on him, and in this way we give him our time and effort.
Hating Satan is not the same as loving God. The time which we spend hating Satan is lost time. It is time that could have spent better by dwelling on the love and goodness of God.
This is not to say we shouldn’t be aware of Satan’s works and intentions in order to avoid or remedy them, but it is best if we do this without hatred. Light a lamp rather than curse the darkness.
Hating Satan is not the same as loving God. The time which we spend hating Satan is lost time. It is time that could have spent better by dwelling on the love and goodness of God.
This is not to say we shouldn’t be aware of Satan’s works and intentions in order to avoid or remedy them, but it is best if we do this without hatred. Light a lamp rather than curse the darkness.
Last edited:
O
OneSheep
Guest
Good Morning Roguish
Could you share with us what the “clear understanding about evil” is?
Thanks
Wow, that is so true. Thanks for adding that here!
Very cool. I really like your responses here.
Last edited:
O
OneSheep
Guest
Good Morning friend,
So I guess what I am talking about is the natural conscience, not a disciplined conscience. We naturally have gut-level reactions to the bad acts people do, and we naturally feel compelled to condemn and punish. The discipline of disconnecting the sin from the sinner is very helpful, and spiritually fruitful, but to me that discipline is a means of dealing with an often problematic aspect of the natural conscience.
Does that make sense? The Gospel is providing a discipline.
The way I look at it, my wife and children’s lives have far more “value” in my mind than my own life. I love them deeply, they are truly part of me. So what is the difference between my feelings toward someone who has hit me with a bat and someone who has hit my child? It’s all the same, both instances have triggered my own anger/condemnation against the sinner. In my own spirituality, my judging is a cue that it is time to understand and forgive, for in both instances I hold something against someone.
Does that make sense to you?
Well, reconciliation is “seeing eyelash to eyelash”, right? So in my experience reconciliation can be between me and someone else, me and God, but also between “me” and the parts of myself that I reject or resent in some way. Is this your experience also? Have you ever experienced an inner reconciliation?
In my experience, the label automatically follows the feeling of resentment. That guy who pulled out in front of me not only did bad, but my mind calls him a jerk before any discipline can catch it! What works for me is to realize I have judged, and then take the steps to understand and forgive.
So I guess what I am talking about is the natural conscience, not a disciplined conscience. We naturally have gut-level reactions to the bad acts people do, and we naturally feel compelled to condemn and punish. The discipline of disconnecting the sin from the sinner is very helpful, and spiritually fruitful, but to me that discipline is a means of dealing with an often problematic aspect of the natural conscience.
Does that make sense? The Gospel is providing a discipline.
Yes, Jesus asks us to forgive people. If I hold someone’s action against them, I am called to forgive.
Well stated. Thanks for adding that here!
In my own experience, it has been very helpful to forgive anyone I hold something against. It may be a politician, it may be a person who has beheaded someone in Syria. I am truly effected, I am harmed by wrongdoings on others. I do empathize with the persecuted, and I truly feel their pain and anguish. I’m talking about a forgiveness that begins with understanding, as Jesus did from the cross.
The way I look at it, my wife and children’s lives have far more “value” in my mind than my own life. I love them deeply, they are truly part of me. So what is the difference between my feelings toward someone who has hit me with a bat and someone who has hit my child? It’s all the same, both instances have triggered my own anger/condemnation against the sinner. In my own spirituality, my judging is a cue that it is time to understand and forgive, for in both instances I hold something against someone.
Does that make sense to you?
Last edited:
O
OneSheep
Guest
I’m still not getting “directly” out of that. Pro-life people take abortion rights advocates to court all the time, but the people effected by abortion directly are already dead, right? But wait a minute, OTOH the parents are directly effected… the grandparents… people who care about the lives of unborn…
What this begs is the question about what “directly” means. If a person violates my values, violates my conscience, I am truly “directly effected”, correct? I have taken offense, I hold something against someone. I hold their actions against their value as a person, with that label of “bad”, “evil” etc. etc.
Is this a time for letting go? Of course! Jesus models such letting go through understanding and forgiveness , correct?
BTW, Did you see this post?
E
esieffe
Guest
Well said. This is what I used to do. Then I began to worry about it, as he was created as an angelic creature by God. No need to waste energy hating the devil. What does it gain anyone.
Last edited:
R
Rutherford2
Guest
And we don’t love him too right? Just remain neutral right?
R
Roguish
Guest
True, one shouldn’t spend one’s time thinking about evil. But sometimes one is confronted with it, and cannot avoid dealing with it. In such cases, to turn away from it in horror is better, much better, than trying to appease it with “forgiveness”. Evil isn’t interested in forgiveness. It cannot be, for it isn’t an entity with free will.
O
OneSheep
Guest
Roguish, how do you integrate the idea that “Evil is an absence of good” with what you are saying here?
What is the “clear understanding” about what evil is? There is something you are not explaining.
R
RandomAlias
Guest
When I wrote that, I thought it was from the Bible. Then I tried to look it up to refresh my memory and consider the context, … but it’s not in the Bible at all, at least not verbatim. Ha! Still, it seems to fit.
C
ChorusAngelorum
Guest
Hate is not necessarily bad in and of itself. It isn’t only ok to hate sin and evil, but necessary in order to get to heaven.
E
esieffe
Guest
No, we certainly don’t love him. He is the father of lies, he would kill every last person on earth if he were allowed to, and I mean right now. I wouldn’t even call it neutral myself, I think the term that best fits is understanding. Understand how he came to be, and understand that he is the enemy, and leave it there.
W
Wm777
Guest
To hate would be to fall into satan’s trap.
I think the prescribed course of action is to just carefully ignore him by looking to God instead.
There’s really nothing you can do to change the devil or any demons mind or stature.
I’ve got a video on DVD from one of the Vatican’s Leading Exorcists,
and he says he worries far more about saying mass than any exorcism.
There’s a few reasons why.
Worrying about the devil is like worrying about your garbage.
I don’t mean recyclables, either.
I mean, like, complete refuse - the worst, most vile smelling scum you would never want to imagine.
Unless you are really a trained and qualified sanitation specialist studying the black plague,
you probably dont spend a whole lot of time worrying
what happens with some sick person’s vomit flushed down the divine toilet years ago… much more feel sorry for it…
I do sometimes wonder if God Himself grieves over the loss of 1/3 of His Creation.
Christ’s salvific mission would seem to indicate he does.
But Jesus’ work seems more sympathetic to the souls afflicted by satan’s heresy,
rather than anything satan himself or his followers decided when rebelling.
In any case, the other reason the Vatican Exorcist said
he worries more about mass than any exorcism is because God
has control over the devil and hell…
It’s a mystery as to why - but God sometimes lets bad stuff happen to people, like he did Job.
I think the idea is to teach them a lesson - to turn them back on the right path…
Sometimes it isnt even because they have done anything bad -
It’s said, the Blessed Mother took the kids from Fatima on a tour of Hell,
although it was under Her protection…
the idea goes to show how - just because she was an innocent virgin,
she was not naive as to what sin is, and she was teaching the kids to protect and prepare them for their mission…
God is Love; the God of the Living, Mercy, Charity and Forgiveness;
The devil is unrepentant, full of hate, violence and selfishness.
In fearing God, we learn not to worry about the devil, but to appropriately fear for the conservation of the right thing -
loss of the most precious virtues that protect us, help us, console us, and allow us to thrive;
It seems better, however, if we labor and exercise faith, rather than loss - lest we lose what little we have… for this reason, I am not a big fan of scruples, although I have my quirks…
Anyway, all this is probably why the Exorcist said he doesn’t worry about the devil…
And, if an Exorcist, who is like one of heaven’s trained “Sanitation Specialists” wouldnt want
to give such rubbish a second thought… why would you?
I think the prescribed course of action is to just carefully ignore him by looking to God instead.
There’s really nothing you can do to change the devil or any demons mind or stature.
I’ve got a video on DVD from one of the Vatican’s Leading Exorcists,
and he says he worries far more about saying mass than any exorcism.
There’s a few reasons why.
Worrying about the devil is like worrying about your garbage.
I don’t mean recyclables, either.
I mean, like, complete refuse - the worst, most vile smelling scum you would never want to imagine.
Unless you are really a trained and qualified sanitation specialist studying the black plague,
you probably dont spend a whole lot of time worrying
what happens with some sick person’s vomit flushed down the divine toilet years ago… much more feel sorry for it…
I do sometimes wonder if God Himself grieves over the loss of 1/3 of His Creation.
Christ’s salvific mission would seem to indicate he does.
But Jesus’ work seems more sympathetic to the souls afflicted by satan’s heresy,
rather than anything satan himself or his followers decided when rebelling.
In any case, the other reason the Vatican Exorcist said
he worries more about mass than any exorcism is because God
has control over the devil and hell…
It’s a mystery as to why - but God sometimes lets bad stuff happen to people, like he did Job.
I think the idea is to teach them a lesson - to turn them back on the right path…
Sometimes it isnt even because they have done anything bad -
It’s said, the Blessed Mother took the kids from Fatima on a tour of Hell,
although it was under Her protection…
the idea goes to show how - just because she was an innocent virgin,
she was not naive as to what sin is, and she was teaching the kids to protect and prepare them for their mission…
God is Love; the God of the Living, Mercy, Charity and Forgiveness;
The devil is unrepentant, full of hate, violence and selfishness.
In fearing God, we learn not to worry about the devil, but to appropriately fear for the conservation of the right thing -
loss of the most precious virtues that protect us, help us, console us, and allow us to thrive;
It seems better, however, if we labor and exercise faith, rather than loss - lest we lose what little we have… for this reason, I am not a big fan of scruples, although I have my quirks…
Anyway, all this is probably why the Exorcist said he doesn’t worry about the devil…
And, if an Exorcist, who is like one of heaven’s trained “Sanitation Specialists” wouldnt want
to give such rubbish a second thought… why would you?
Last edited:
W
Wm777
Guest
I don’t think that’s what CRM Brother means…CRM_Brother:
If we cannot forgive him doesn’t it means the same as we hate him?
There is only one unforgivable sin, and that is the absolute denial of the Holy Spirit (i.e. emphatically mercy) itself. That’s because - if you denied mercy itself, then it would be impossible to do anything repentant, redemptive, forgiving, charitable or kind at all.
What CRM_Brother seems to mean is - just because satan is that way doesn’t mean CRM_Brother doesn’t have love, charity, mercy, etc (all the good Catholic virtues) in his own heart… Hence, CRM_Brother knows how to forgive, although the devil still doesn’t, can’t and won’t…
It is worth noting, I think, CRM_Brother is being trained to be a Priest, and - if it happens - he’ll be ordained with certain things a lay person wouldn’t… What I mean is, as a lay person, it’s still probably better not to go prying into divine mysteries, especially if you’re not fully covered by the auspices of a higher authority…
Even top Exorcists say not to worry about the devil… so I see no reason why you should worry about how you feel about a heap of trash, when you could be contemplating the Sistine chapel, saying your prayers, etc… maybe you are under temptation of some sort, but - if so - its something you should take up with a Spiritual Director…
R
Rutherford2
Guest
I want to be an exorcist to fight satan and his demons. 
W
Wm777
Guest
I think you’d have to be a professed Priest to do an Exorcism. 
And, even then, you’d have to officially get permission from your Archbishop. HOWEVER… I do think there are actually some things a lay person can do without formal approval from an Archbishop…
Obviously, you can pray prayers like the Prayer to Saint Michael, but there’s a sort of exorcism-like thing called a “deliverance”, which doesn’t require the permission of an Archbishop. I’m no professional in the matter, but I became familiar with the term because a friend of mine (a franciscan friar TOR) is a Christian healer, and he’s done them at healing masses.
I have a disability with Asperger’s, which has been a lifelong problem, and which I am trying to redeem myself. my friar friend used to pray over me at the healing masses, although never in the sense of a full formal deliverance, but - just in the sense of a healing mass type blessing, which was given to anyone who attended the mass and wanted such a blessing, like most everyone was there to do. From what he told me, a deliverance could take hours, and it leaves everyone exhausted in the end. I dont know exactly why, but I think it takes a lot of energy to focus so vehemently in prayer for so long.
And, even then, you’d have to officially get permission from your Archbishop. HOWEVER… I do think there are actually some things a lay person can do without formal approval from an Archbishop…Obviously, you can pray prayers like the Prayer to Saint Michael, but there’s a sort of exorcism-like thing called a “deliverance”, which doesn’t require the permission of an Archbishop. I’m no professional in the matter, but I became familiar with the term because a friend of mine (a franciscan friar TOR) is a Christian healer, and he’s done them at healing masses.
I have a disability with Asperger’s, which has been a lifelong problem, and which I am trying to redeem myself. my friar friend used to pray over me at the healing masses, although never in the sense of a full formal deliverance, but - just in the sense of a healing mass type blessing, which was given to anyone who attended the mass and wanted such a blessing, like most everyone was there to do. From what he told me, a deliverance could take hours, and it leaves everyone exhausted in the end. I dont know exactly why, but I think it takes a lot of energy to focus so vehemently in prayer for so long.
Last edited:
W
Wm777
Guest
In trying to work out my own salvation, I have always believed - if and when the Holy Spirit comes into your life, it happens with such a positive force - it corrects everything else… As a mathematical analogy, if you’ve ever tried to solve a math problem you didnt understand, it’s like - you end up trying one thing after another, but it’s all in vain, and - even if you are right about something - its still hard to tell if you really are right… You end up wasting lots of time and energy over nothing at all… On the other hand, suppose you saw and understood the truth of the matter - well, then, it’s like the problem takes a split second to solve, and you’re good…
In schools, we learn by reason and logic, but in church we learn by faith… Learning by faith isnt necessarily logical given the limits of the human understanding; faith is far superior to the human understanding - embodying topics like revelation, grace, wisdom, creativity, prevention of risk, honesty, value, etc… But faith can easily embody all forms of intelligence… And, if and when Jesus arrives, everything just makes sense… I’ve answered complex computer and math problems based more upon faith in a revelation than I have by reason, although the solutions contained thoroughly sound and logical reasoning…
What I am trying to say is, whether you want to be a great exorcist, or simply dispell a temptation, the cure is placing faith in and looking to Truth and God… which has little to do with the devil… Thinking about the devil is like - trying to solve a math problem when you don’t understand what you’re actually doing… It usually just confuses things, until you see it for what it is… Oh sure - everyone wants to be the evil genius, conquer the world, and come home to a hero’s welcome (whether everyone else actually likes it or not)… Everyone wants to be the leader, and no one wants to be the follower… But, really, solving problems like a possession or an attachment - whether by logic or faith - is often very simple - tou just have to look to and place faith in the right thing and let go of the rest…
Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life… so I look to follow Him… His Mother shows me where He is… He makes the decisions… It is up to me to attentively and patiently discern, listen and obey…
Amen.
HTH… $.02…
In schools, we learn by reason and logic, but in church we learn by faith… Learning by faith isnt necessarily logical given the limits of the human understanding; faith is far superior to the human understanding - embodying topics like revelation, grace, wisdom, creativity, prevention of risk, honesty, value, etc… But faith can easily embody all forms of intelligence… And, if and when Jesus arrives, everything just makes sense… I’ve answered complex computer and math problems based more upon faith in a revelation than I have by reason, although the solutions contained thoroughly sound and logical reasoning…
What I am trying to say is, whether you want to be a great exorcist, or simply dispell a temptation, the cure is placing faith in and looking to Truth and God… which has little to do with the devil… Thinking about the devil is like - trying to solve a math problem when you don’t understand what you’re actually doing… It usually just confuses things, until you see it for what it is… Oh sure - everyone wants to be the evil genius, conquer the world, and come home to a hero’s welcome (whether everyone else actually likes it or not)… Everyone wants to be the leader, and no one wants to be the follower… But, really, solving problems like a possession or an attachment - whether by logic or faith - is often very simple - tou just have to look to and place faith in the right thing and let go of the rest…
Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life… so I look to follow Him… His Mother shows me where He is… He makes the decisions… It is up to me to attentively and patiently discern, listen and obey…
Amen.
HTH…
$.02…
Last edited:
- Status