Can Catholics Profess that it is Christ Alone Who Saves?

[onenow1]

onenow1;6951079:

Hi Cramer
Another thread for this.

Agreed ! but you introduced Mary your statement Below.

Originally Posted by Cranmer2010
My problem with that is that Scripture tells us that there is no other name than Christ by which we are saved, so why does Mary or anyone else have to be mentioned in this aspect. We all who are saved cooperate with Christ, not as part of our Salvation, but because of it.

I would just point out one more fact Mary introduced us to Jesus.

God Bless

 

[Cranmer2010]

That Mary needed a Savior is a Catholic teaching, Cranmer.

*"Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.

Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been “saved” from the pit. **Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. ***This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain." source

BTW, that analogy of Mary being prevented from falling into a pit was attributed to Dun Scotus, who lived in the 12th century.

I understand what the Catholic position is regarding this. The point I wish to make is that Scripture never says or points to anything specific that would support this. It’s nowhere to be found. I realize that you will probably tell me that it is not required to be in Scripture.

 

[Cranmer2010]

Cranmer2010;6953245:

Agreed ! but you introduced Mary your statement Below.

Originally Posted by Cranmer2010
My problem with that is that Scripture tells us that there is no other name than Christ by which we are saved, so why does Mary or anyone else have to be mentioned in this aspect. We all who are saved cooperate with Christ, not as part of our Salvation, but because of it.

I would just point out one more fact Mary introduced us to Jesus.

God Bless

How do you figure? Mary didn’t introduce me to Jesus, the Scriptures did.

 

[Cranmer2010]

So I provided Biblical proof of Church infallibility, and now here’s some ECFs who professed the infallibility of the Church:

*"Cyprian of Carthage had this to say of the Church, “Would heretics dare to come to the very seat of Peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors can come” (Epistulae 59 (55), 14, [256 A.D.]).

Prior to this, Irenaeus of Lyons said, “But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).

In 433 Pope Sixtus III said that “all know that to assent to [the Bishop of Rome’s] decision is to assent to St. Peter, who lives in his successors and whose faith fails not.” While there are many other passages from the early Church Fathers that demonstrate the infallibility of the Church, these should suffice to prove that the doctrine was not “invented” in 1870 when Vatican I defined it formally." *source

I’m aware of what many of these folks have stated, many of whom were Popes. With all due respect, this doesn’t prove anything.

 

[Cranmer2010]

Given the fact that Mary was without original sin, did she experience birth pangs, as a literal Rev. 12 reading might suggest?"

I never saw Mary mentioned anywhere past the the Book of Acts. How do you get Mary from Revelation?? Isn’t what you are calling Mary from Revelation actually Israel?

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Scripture never shows anything that suggests that Mary was without original sin.

The Catholic Church selected and canonized 27 of her own writings to form the Christian Scriptures – the New Testament, The NT was never intended to be a systematic instruction book in Christianity, but Protestants have attempted to make it into one, with disastrous results.

Jesus didn’t leave us a book – He left us the Catholic Church as our teacher. The Church produced the Bible under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

All Catholic doctrines are found in the Scriptures, either explicitly or implicitly. The NT was based on the living, dynamic teaching Church, not vice versa. The Church did not come out of the Bible; rather, the Bible came out of the Church.

Jim Dandy

 

[Carlan]

Ah. So here we have it. What I call the CAFs version of Godwin’s Law.

Godwin’s law (also known as Godwin’s Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin’s law of Nazi Analogies) is a humorous observation made by Mike Godwin in 1990 which has become an Internet adage. It states: “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.” In other words, Godwin put forth the sarcastic observation that, given enough time, all discussions —regardless of topic or scope —inevitably wind up being about Hitler and the Nazis. Also the poster who mentioned Nazis loses all debates/discussions they had in said topic, and their insults are nullified.

Here’s the CAF version of Godwin’s Law I’m proposing: “As an online discussion about the CC grows longer, the probability of a reference to sexual abuse by priests approaches 1”

However, the poster who mentions the abuse loses all debates/discussions said in topic, and his insults are nullified.

And I have to say, Cranmer, you win the prize for being the fastest new poster to succumb to the CAF’s version of Godwin’s Law (still searching for a catchy name for it–how 'bout CAFvofGL?). Only been here 7 days–quick on the draw you are! npatrol:

:tiphat::yup: Peace, Carlan

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cranmer2010
Scripture never shows anything that suggests that Mary was without original sin.

Scripture also never shows anything about getting married inside a church or mentioning wedding rings.

Scripture was never intended to contain everything God said or ever did. Christianity did not evolve from a book,but from a person: Jesus Christ.

 

[onenow1]

onenow1;6954486:

How do you figure? Mary didn’t introduce me to Jesus, the Scriptures did.

Through scripture the sheperds were told they would find a babe, in the manger; and as far as I know there was no N.T. at the time.

Luke 2: 15 When the angels went away from them into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, “Let us go over to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has made known to us.”
16 And they went with haste, and found Mary and Joseph, and the babe lying in a manger.

I think we can almost hear conversation with the sheperds. Something like this Hi, I’m Joseph this is my wife Mary, and our child Jesus.

Peace,

 

[PRmerger]

I understand what the Catholic position is regarding this. The point I wish to make is that Scripture never says or points to anything specific that would support this. It’s nowhere to be found. I realize that you will probably tell me that it is not required to be in Scripture.

It’s simply an illustration as to why Mary would say that God is her Savior.

Just like an example your pastor might provide about an every day occurrence, which isn’t necessarily in Scripture, but provides an insight into a Scriptural point.

God saved Mary from the pit of Sin. She had a Savior, but she had no Original Sin.

**So can you provide a Scripture verse that says that Mary was stained? **

 

[PRmerger]

I’m aware of what many of these folks have stated, many of whom were Popes. With all due respect, this doesn’t prove anything.

It only refutes your statement below:

You still have not shown where you get infallibility. It’s not Biblical and** it wasn’t in the Early Church**.

Clearly, as the evidence has shown, it was in the Early Church.

 

[mangy_dog]

It was a simple question unlike your loaded response.

Simple response,

yes.

 

[KathleenGee]

Cranmer…from the beginning of your posts, you come across as an Anglican style ultra traditionalist…

We are not saved until we are dead.

And it regards our choices in how we lived out our faith…with the cross or without, doing God’s will or our own.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Originally Posted by Jim Dandy
What a strange question, since Christianity came through the Catholic Church.

Why do you ask? i.e., what prompted the Q?

Peace be with you.

Jim Dandy

It was a simple question unlike your loaded response.

What a strange answer. It’s historical fact that Christianity came through Christ to his Apostles, the leaders of the Catholic Church. Why would a statement of fact offend you? It was a sincere question.

Peace, Jim Dandy

 

[Hope3]

This is by far the best response yet to my question. As an Anglican, I can in a sense concur with participating with good works, but not in the sense that they have anything to do with me being saved, but rather as a Christ inspired response to being saved.

Many people do not think that good works are necessary for salvation, but they are. Fast-forward to Judgment Day:

Matthew 25:31-46 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
[32] Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,
[33] and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.
[34] Then the King will say to those at his right hand, Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; [35] for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, [36] I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' [37] Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
[38] And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
[39] And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’
[40] And the King will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' [41] Then he will say to those at his left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
[42] for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
[43] I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
[44] Then they also will answer, Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' [45] Then he will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’
[46] And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matthew 3:7-10 "But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sad’ducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? [8] Bear fruit that befits repentance, [9] and do not presume to say to yourselves, `We have Abraham as our father’; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham. [10] Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Our good works prove that we actually have faith and that is why we are judged according to our works on Judgment Day and not on our faith alone.

Matthew 16:27 “Forr the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.”

**John 5:28-29 **“Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.”

James 2:24 “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

 

[Hope3]

Again, you do not show proof that she was unstained. Scripture in fact says otherwise.

What Scripture are you referring to? “All have sinned…”?

Jesus was not born with Adam’s sin on His soul even though He was fully Man and fully God Romans 5:15 and He also never ever sinned. Hebrews 4:15 Jesus never sinned so here is one obvious exception to Romans 5:12, Romans 3:21-24, and since He did not have Adam’s sin on His soul, then His mother could not either because half of Jesus’ DNA is from His mother and this DNA cannot possibly be tainted by Adam’s sin or else Jesus would also be tainted. Mary was not merely an incubator or surrogate mother. She was His actual human mother by the power of the Holy Spirit since she did not have sexual relations with her human husband in order to conceive Jesus. It was her own egg that was used for Jesus’ human conception.

Luke 2:21 “And when eight days were completed for the circumcision of the Child, His name was called JESUS, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb.”

John the Baptist was conceived in his mother’s womb, Luke 1:36 and He became filled with the Holy Spirit already while he was in his mother’s womb. Luke 1:44

Jesus is still Mary’s Savior. Luke 1:47 He saved her before she became tainted with Adam’s sin (God saved her before her own conception in her mother’s womb) in the same miraculous manner as He gave His apostles His sacrificial Body and Blood to eat and drink before (in anticipation of) His actual sacrificial death on the cross.