can CCD harm?

[Vanessa]

I’m sorry I didn’t give enough info, but now that I’ve read the assumptions, I can answer better anyway.

I don’t use the Baltimore Catechism, I use Apoligetic books and real books about saints or whatever my children seem to be having a problem with at the time. I suppose that was a hit against the Latin Catholics. Ain’t one.

My son plays piano for two churches, my other son serves at mass, and my daughter will be cantoring soon. Daily mass attendants from both parishes know them by name. Isn’t that community? I drive 30-60 minutes at least weekly, so they can associate with other Catholic hs children. (And they regulary volunteer for the local St. Vincent de Paul society. I was just reminded that the kids are invited to the SVdP volunteer retreat too.)

The reason I hs was because of sex ed in kindergarten that I was not informed about, let alone asked permission. I had commented to a friend that my 5 year old was suddenly, and I believed, unnaturally interested in sex and wasn’t sure why. At an open house my son took me directly to his book. When I protested to the principal she said the book was “delightful”, although it disapeared and no one saw it again. So I was burned early.

At my daughter’s first communion prep, I got kicked out of the parent classes because of what I put on an evaluation sheet. I noted the negative outcome when the parents broke into small group discussions about confession. Everyone but me couldn’t remember when they had last gone. So they all agreed among themselves that confession isn’t important. So although the authority asked for an evaluation, there was no evidence of interest in making things better. I was not rude on the form. Burn two.

I put my son in 8th grade class. They have a rotation of 6 sets of teachers. Having only one is not allowed. I sat in on the class a few weeks, but decided to pray instead. My son regularly reported outragious things being taught, and he would lead the arguments. When one teacher said that it was immoral to prosecute a thief, I thought I’d make lemonade and had him prepare a footnoted essay on the subject. Then he presented the one page document to the DRE. She gave it back to him and suggested he look this adult up and talk it over with her. She was not going to deal with errors being taught. And I was not happy that my child was leading the other kids in rebellion against the adult instructors. We dropped the class. Burn three.

The next year we signed up for the high school classes. He kept returning to the adults and I kept shooing him back to the kids. He said that they were cussing and swearing and they were doing an activity of eating ice cream without hands, sticking their mouths into the same bowl after each other. I sat back and realized that he had a very appropriate reaction. Just because it’s my church CCD class doesn’t make it ok. We dropped again. Burn four.

So I truly believe that the CCD classes are harmful, not just worthless. (I left details out) I know there are good kids from good families in there too. I noticed that they just sit back and say nothing and appear bored.

As to the suggestion that I hop in there and volunteer. I’m a volunteer queen, but not in the CCD program. The energy it would take to make a difference is more than I can spare from my family right now. Prayer is what I can offer. My vocation is mother. I will not neglect that calling to go on a losing crusade to save other children. One day I will have the time, now I’m trying to save mine.

 

[Peace-bwu]

Your experience is not at all abnormal. I was a product of the CCD program in the 80’s and knew very little about the Catholic Church until my protestant peers began bashing the Church and asking me questions I could not answer. I began to look it up for myself and grew deeper and more solidly Catholic.

It is frustrating. All numbers of non-Catholic denominations are preparing their children for debate and to defend their particular beliefs, are are teaching then solid Bible Study (even if they don’t have the benefit of Apostolic Tradition to help interpret) and Catholic CCD kids are given a small workbook, and an hour or so of instruction. That instruction may or may not be fully in line with Catholic Doctrine. The teacher may or may not know Catholic doctrine considering most of them are also products of the CCD generation. It will take thousands of devoted and devout adults across the world to fix this mess. I have hope that things will get better. At our first RE meeting of the year there were mostly women present. One of the teachers said “See, now* this* is why women should be allowed to be priests!” I was taken aback. Far too many well-meaning CCD volunteers are not catechized themselves and do not understand the beliefs of the Church and why they are there.

 

[YinYangMom]

KCT:

I think the objection is that if they’re already teaching the faith, along w/ the math, science etc, why are they required to also attend classes? If private school kids are not required, why are homeschooled kids?

Maybe I misunderstand the situation. —KCT

Because that second grade class is a community within itself, just as the greater community the parents have already formed through church activities.

It is beneficial to the second grader to experience communal prayer with peers of their own age, to be exposed to questions they may ask in class, to be able to share the answers they know with the others in class so that when they go up the aisle for their first communion it is both a personal and communal event for them, they are genuinely happy for their classmate beside them as much as they are for themselves and they have people their own age to share the joy with.

This is the example set by the community at large, I know I am genuinely happy to see so many people going up for community each Sunday, particularly delighted for the ones under 16 and those in their 20s. I guess I see the value of the young ones learning to share the mass and the sacraments with their peers, not just their parents and siblings.

 

[dhgray]

Vanessa:

Our bishop just published some unfriendly rules for homeschoolers receiving the sacraments. This has led to a lot of conversation among us. Someone said that 30 hours of CCD a year can’t accomplish much positive and certainly can’t do harm either. I don’t agree.

I so do love Church Politics. Let’s tell everyone that CCD is bad do they will HAVE to put their children in the Catholic School. Grant it my son knows more details about the faith because he went to Catholic School, but I believe my daughters are stronger Catholics because they went to Public School and had to defend the faith.

 

[YinYangMom]

Vanessa:

So I truly believe that the CCD classes are harmful, not just worthless. (I left details out) I know there are good kids from good families in there too. I noticed that they just sit back and say nothing and appear bored.

Ok, so they’re worthless for your parish, not overall worthless and harmful, that is an important distinction.

I get that the DRE didn’t want to do anything about the poor instructors…since the Bishop wrote the letter placing the requirement perhaps you should send him a reply with the evidence of your experiences with your particular RE program and ask for an exception to the rule under the circumstances, at least until he can rectify the situation? You have a valid concern with obeying his directive if doing so would harm the spiritual development of your child.

However, should that effort fail, you are still the leading example for your children of obedience to the magesterium, therefore you must comply, otherwise you are teaching your children they can pick and choose which directives they obey. Not good.

What you do, then, is explain up front that they are going to the program because we respect the bishop and obey the Church in all things. You prepare them to be exposed to false teachings and disinterested classmates, and you encourage them not to be disrespectful or disruptive to the flow of the class session even though they know the truth. If this is what is being taught, it is with the DRE’s knowledge and approval, therefore it is not the students’ place to counter that during class time (outside of class is another matter, I’d continue to press the DRE to fix the program especially since it’s now mandated). They you continually pray as a family for the DRE and the parish RE program as it is under attack from within.

As to the suggestion that I hop in there and volunteer. I’m a volunteer queen, but not in the CCD program. The energy it would take to make a difference is more than I can spare from my family right now. Prayer is what I can offer. My vocation is mother. I will not neglect that calling to go on a losing crusade to save other children. One day I will have the time, now I’m trying to save mine.

Priorities matter. I pretty much did the same. Now that my children are in high school I have the time to help the RE program but I wasn’t in the position to do so when they were younger. Prayer is good. But so is obedience.

I get the impression your children’s faith is strong enough to survive this testing situation before them, especially because you are such a diligent mother and will arm them with the Truth and proper instruction. No harm can come to a child with such a protective mother, trust in the Lord on that one. Your kids will be ok after 30 hours of the program. Actually, I think they’ll come out stronger and wiser for it.

 

[1ke]

Vanessa:

I’m sorry I didn’t give enough info, but now that I’ve read the assumptions, I can answer better anyway.

So I truly believe that the CCD classes are harmful, not just worthless. (I left details out) I know there are good kids from good families in there too. I noticed that they just sit back and say nothing and appear bored.

I suggest that you do a couple of things. Get like-minded parents that also have issues with the curriculum as it is taught to discuss the issue. Document these outrageous behaviors and false teaching going on in the CCE program. Be very detailed.

First make an appointment to discuss this situation with the Pastor. Give examples. Ask him how he is going to correct this major issue in CCE in light of the Bishop’s mandate. I am assuming this might be a formality step since he is most likely aware of what’s being taught-- but then again maybe not. You do not mention any prior attempt to get the Pastor to intervene, only the DRE’s oblivion. So, start with the pastor. Assuming it doesn’t get addressed at that level…

Make an appointment to bring your case to your Bishop. Approach it not from the standpoint of “we want to homeschool” but from the standpoint of “how are you going to guarantee a quality program in which accurate, faithful church teaching is being presented… here are all of my examples of how it is NOT being presented in my parish…” Put the Bishop on the spot about the poor state of catechesis in your parish (and this is where it helps to have other parents). Be prepared with church documentation that PARENTS are the primary educators. Tell him that you will not allow your child to be taught falsely and if your child is denied the Sacraments you will take your case to Rome. Canon Law governs the Sacraments and parish CCE is not a requirement for reception of the Sacraments.

If he listens and seems genuinely concerned about the errors and problems you bring to him, great. If the Bishop will not listen-- then document it all and send it to Rome. That’s the best you can do.

 

[YinYangMom]

dhgray:

I believe my daughters are stronger Catholics because they went to Public School and had to defend the faith.

This has been the case for us. It took more work on our part as parents to establish the foundation of their faith early on and then continue to build upon it each year, especially since many of the controversial moral issues come up so early now for kids (6th grade). It was a bummer to have to teach them complicated teachings at such a young age but it made them stronger and it helped them help their friends through some pretty tough times.

 

[puzzleannie]

Vanessa:

I’m
So I truly believe that the CCD classes are harmful, not just worthless. (I left details out) I know there are good kids from good families in there too. I noticed that they just sit back and say nothing and appear bored.

As to the suggestion that I hop in there and volunteer. I’m a volunteer queen, but not in the CCD program. .

I quite agree that the instances you cite from one program in one parish show the wide range of abuses that are out there, in CCD and in Parochial school programs. The answer to abuses there, as in scouting, sports or other activities, is not always for the parent to take over, but parental involvement and knowing what is going on is crucial. You, unlike a majority of parents, have taken the time and trouble to find out.

there is nothing to prevent you or any homeschooling family to continue teaching formal RE using the materials provided by the parish, supplemented by your own resources at home. In the best of all possible worlds, that is how all RE instruction would work. You son in fact found that his class, even in teaching error, provided apologetics training for him as he did this research, and valuable experience in discerning the truth in any teaching he receives, in CCD, at school, in the media etc.

You speak about your experience in one parish. It may or may not be characteristic of the entire diocese. shop around for a good CCD program, sometimes a C+ program may have an AAA catechist in one grade.

 

[Vanessa]

You talk about obedience to the Bishop. But there is a limit, to the point of sin. Putting your children in places that you believe are harmful to their faith is sinning.

The question is whether my conscience is properly formed on the issue, and if I am seeing things fairly. Can CCD harm?

But I can’t help but think of the abuse scandal and wonder if those parents saw anything but chose to be “obedient”. In my parish, I know one mom who chewed out the priest when he taught the boys dirty songs and fed them alcohol. Yet, she continued to send her child. Yes, he was an abuser and the kids, now adults, are pretty messed up.

 

[KCT]

YinYangMom:

Because that second grade class is a community within itself,

So is the family or any small group.

It is beneficial to the second grader to experience communal prayer with peers of their own age,

Why? I’m not saying it’s harmful, but why specifically w/ kids their own age? Doesn’t that create sort of an artificial community? I don’t hang around with or pray with only people who are 43. Why should kids?

I guess I see the value of the young ones learning to share the mass and the sacraments with their peers, not just their parents and siblings.

Sure, but I see more value in kids sharing the Mass and sacraments w/ the whole parish, not just their own grade level. —KCT

 

[KCT]

Our former DRE told me his ideal would be for kids to learn the faith at home and to have the families come together periodically at the parish for whole family faith formation and activities. Wouldn’t that be nice? --KCT

 

[Vanessa]

puzzleannie:

You son in fact found that his class, even in teaching error, provided apologetics training for him as he did this research, and valuable experience in discerning the truth in any teaching he receives, in CCD, at school, in the media etc.

You see that as a positive, I see it as a negative. But then, I’m around and can see how it affected him. It made him egotistical and negative about the Church. Here, he’s a kid and he knows more than this adult teaching a class. How much disillusionment can a child take before he wants to dump the whole thing and search for something better?

Why can’t the parent be trusted to understand her child? What brand of Catholicism is everyone so afraid that I might teach my child? There’s a lot of disagreement on this list, yet I’d say both sides are good Catholics.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

Vanessa:

You talk about obedience to the Bishop. But there is a limit, to the point of sin. Putting your children in places that you believe are harmful to their faith is sinning.

The question is whether my conscience is properly formed on the issue, and if I am seeing things fairly. Can CCD harm?

But I can’t help but think of the abuse scandal and wonder if those parents saw anything but chose to be “obedient”. In my parish, I know one mom who chewed out the priest when he taught the boys dirty songs and fed them alcohol. Yet, she continued to send her child. Yes, he was an abuser and the kids, now adults, are pretty messed up.

I’m not sure who you were talking to with this post, but since I know that I mentioned obedience (I don’t know if anyone else did) then I figured I would answer. What I meant was this. Even if a person thinks their children do not need CCD because they can learn everything at home, if the Bishop says this is what has to be done then one should be obedient and do it. Now, CCD is not supposed to be harmful to your children, so the Bishops expectations are ordered towards the good of all. If the CCD available in your Parish is harmful, ie they are not learning the Truth in CCD, rather harming their Faith or confusing them, then its a totally different case. Putting in the classes knowing it will harm them is not the solution. Sitting back and ignoring the rule shouldn’t be either. I am not sure what alternatives are available to you, but you may want to consider (if you can) volunteering to teach a class, even if you can’t control what others are teaching, at least you can control what you are doing. I know you mentioned “I’m a volunteer queen, but not in the CCD program. The energy it would take to make a difference is more than I can spare from my family right now.” Maybe could you cut back on volunteering for other things and volunteer to teach a class where your children are in? I am not sure how your system works, or the number of different classes you would have to teach to cover all of your children, but maybe you could work something out with the Parish. You don’t have to change the whole system if you don’t have the time/energy to spare from your family, but you could make a small difference that could affect the rest of the system. I am just trying to think of ideas of how you can follow the rules but not put your kids in harms way. If that does not work, maybe you could ask around to see if there is another CCD class in another Parish that is loyal to the Church’s teachings. If not, maybe you can seek to get a special permission to teach your own kids. There are probably other ideas to explore too.

 

[Quaere_Verum]

Vanessa,

It looks like there are 2 different areas you need to be working on

1. You need to be finding a way to make changes within your diocese, and I’m sure you are doing that
2. In the mean time, I’m sure you want your children to receive the sacraments, so you’ll have to comply until changes are made. You said you volunteer in many areas; maybe CCD needs to be one of them for the present even if it means dropping something else.

I mentioned before that I pop in and out of my children’s CCD classes even offering to teach. I don’t teach specifically one class because I want my fingers in every pie. I’ve also gotten permission to have one of my children miss a CCD class to assist me in teaching the other’s class. Both of them assisted me in teaching an adult ed class. There really are all kinds of ways.

 

[YinYangMom]

KCT:

Our former DRE told me his ideal would be for kids to learn the faith at home and to have the families come together periodically at the parish for whole family faith formation and activities. Wouldn’t that be nice? --KCT

That is what we are struggling with in our parish. Our pastor, associate vicar and DRE have offered wonderful talks, q and a sessions on a variety of topics - including theology of the body, the communion of saints, indulgences…and 5-7 people show up. Usually those of us who are already serving on one committee or another.

As part of RE for the kids Father spoke to the entire group of students on Anointing of the Sick and the Rosary - it was posted in the bulletin weeks in advance that it was open to all parishioners…letters went home to the parents of the RE students encouraging them to join their children for the talk - 2 senior citizens showed up. 0 parents. :crying:

 

[YinYangMom]

Vanessa:

You see that as a positive, I see it as a negative. But then, I’m around and can see how it affected him. It made him egotistical and negative about the Church. Here, he’s a kid and he knows more than this adult teaching a class. How much disillusionment can a child take before he wants to dump the whole thing and search for something better?

Sounds like a golden opportunity to speak to the virtue of humility to counter pride. Yes, if left unguided your son runs the risk of being turned off by the Church and egotistical, but with your wise counsel you would be able to teach him how to show compassion, respectful disagreement, and instill in him the importance of knowing one’s faith if they plan to instruct others, let alone the need to pray for this teacher and the rest of the students in his class.

Why can’t the parent be trusted to understand her child? What brand of Catholicism is everyone so afraid that I might teach my child? There’s a lot of disagreement on this list, yet I’d say both sides are good Catholics.

I think the parent should be trusted to properly instruct their children in the faith. But the Bishop has to consider his entire flock and apparently in your diocese you and your friends are an exception. If he so instructs, you must so obey. No, sending your child to a poorly taught RE class will not lead your child to sin, but it will certainly make your job harder to correct the mistakes he will be exposed to. In the long run, however, it will make your son the stronger Catholic in his class.

Look, I understand your frustration with the directive, particularly with your set of circumstances, and I understand your reluctance to comply, I do. But you are seeking approval from the rest of us to go against your bishop and I don’t see why you’d be surprised you aren’t getting the support you seek, but you are getting lots of good advice, options, suggestions. I’m confident you’ll find a way to comply, protect your children and improve the program in your area.

 

[YinYangMom]

lifeisbeautiful:

maybe you could ask around to see if there is another CCD class in another Parish that is loyal to the Church’s teachings. If not, maybe you can seek to get a special permission to teach your own kids. There are probably other ideas to explore too.

These are good options. I know we have two parishes in our community, so maybe there’s more than one in the OPs and maybe one of those is a good one. If not, I really believe she needs to write to the bishop to offer evidence of the flaws in the program available to her kids then respectfully request an exemption from the directive. I bet the bishop doesn’t have time to fix the problem over all, but I don’t see how he’d be able to justify forcing her to expose her children to false teachings so it seems he’d have to offer the exemption since she provided proof.

 

[genealogist]

Keeping on the subject of CCD. CCD does not harm. Poor programs run by poor DREs and catechists CAN but as I am sure Vanessa is aware many people both within the Church and outside the Church see things differently than she does.

It is up to Catholics to set good examples, offer proper catechesis and apologetics and evangelize at all times. That has to also to be done at the parochial school, homeschool and public school.

I don’t know WHY the bishop is making you do CCD but that is what they do here in Omaha. I think part of it is homeschools are not “part” of anything looked at from certain perspectives. I know they do sports and field trips, Mass servers etc. but since they choose to “opt out” from institutional education there is an air of suspicion. From my bishop’s perspective which is VER VERY pro-parochial schools, it is a slap in the face that the schools offered are deficient. Nobody says they are perfect but homeschoolers can be seen as saying your schools are SO BAD that we will do it ourselves thank you.

I am not saying that is an accurate interpretation but is is how I see it often and maybe an ordinary or two agrees with me. We may be nay saying homeschools but homeschoolers often say that they had to leave because the school was so heterodox and not following the magesterium. But here we have an example where the homeschoolers don’t want to follow this ordinary’s rules, and they seem inconsistent to say the least. “Father” knows best even when you don’t agree. The bishop is the head of the local church not just some bozo in a mitre with a staff.

Not to get everyone all torked off but it does seem that there is a very “individualistic” bent to homeshoolers. For eg. I did not like the sex ed, I did not like the pro-feminist theology, I did not agree with this. This is exactly why we have so many Protestant churches. Sometimes you just have to “BEAR WRONGS PATIENTLY”. This does not mean you can’t get miffed but did all these homeschoolers have to bail from the public and parochial schools? How do you stay part of your city, state and nation? Honestly, almost nothing is the way I would like it to be but I would drive myself insane if I had to remove myself from all those whom I disagree with.

I think there have been many diplomatic and helpful replies on this thread. I don’t want to fan the flames but share in all candor how some of us see those of you like Vanessa. How do you make it work in the parish liturgy? I have a hard time believing that your liturgy is aok orthodox and ONLY the CCD is screwed up. Is it the reality that you have to begrudgingly put up with bad priests to get Communion. The Duggers in AK have 16 kids, homeschool and now homechurch. They were never RC that I know of but is the Mass and the need for a priest the only way that homeschoolers have stayed away from home worship?

Here in Omaha we have many who worship away from the parish and go to BoysTown or the hospital Masses. I do that on occasion when there are time contraints but I almost always go to my parish church so my CCD third grader can see his friends and neighbors are at Mass too. One of our Lutheran boys on the block was curious why we were going to the hospital for church.

 

[YinYangMom]

Vanessa,

I guess I should let you know that I homeschooled my kids in their RE instruction except for the 2 years prior to a sacrament. 1st and 2nd was parish RE. 7th and 8th was parish RE. It was required to be enrolled in the program in order to receive the sacraments so I complied.

My situation is different from yours, though, in that our program is excellent - it’s the students which are dismal. They don’t want to be there. They don’t care about what it means to be Catholic. Their parents are ‘forcing’ them to be there. My kids considered being in a classroom like that a waste of their time, so with the DRE’s help I homeschooled them when I was allowed to.

When it came time to send them through the school again I got such complaints from them but I explained it was required by our bishop in order for them to receive the sacraments and we should **never **allow anything to interfere with our faith journey to Christ. They prepared me with what they would be exposed to so I was able to teach them how best to get through each session. I encouraged them to be the light for the others, to try to connect with them on their level so they could spark some interest in what was being taught. They didn’t want to be the spark . They settled instead for keeping quiet, doing the work and socializing with the other kids. 30 hours really goes by very fast and in the long run it did not have a negative affect on their spiritual development. They’re doing quite well in that regard and they support me as I now teach 8th grade RE. They’ll come in to assist as needed.

 

[kage_ar]

Not to hijack the thread, but when Vanessa said “But then, I’m around and can see how it affected him. It made him egotistical and negative about the Church. Here, he’s a kid and he knows more than this adult teaching a class. How much disillusionment can a child take before he wants to dump the whole thing and search for something better?” – it struck a chord with me.

I was that kid – I knew more than the youth ministers (non-Catholic back then), and it put me into quite a rebellious place. My story had a happy ending, my self-study planted seeds that later led me to the Catholic Church, however, to have skipped the rebellious years would have been the better way. I’ve mentioned the book “Why Christian Kids Rebel” before, and one reason that book rang true for me was where the author addresses this specific issue with spiritual know it all teens – back to the regularly scheduled discussion.