can CCD harm?

[mommyaprilj]

Every situation is different, we also have problems. I’m already teaching CCD so I can’t teach my child’s Confirmation class. However my child’s teacher is ALWAYS late, frequently absent, while telling our child that absence/tardiness is grounds for dismissal, the 15 year old assistant (with whom my child doesn’t really get along) frequently ends up “teaching” the class.
We simply soldier along and do the best we can.

 

[KCT]

YinYangMom:

That is what we are struggling with in our parish. Our pastor, associate vicar and DRE have offered wonderful talks, q and a sessions on a variety of topics - including theology of the body, the communion of saints, indulgences…and 5-7 people show up. Usually those of us who are already serving on one committee or another.

As part of RE for the kids Father spoke to the entire group of students on Anointing of the Sick and the Rosary - it was posted in the bulletin weeks in advance that it was open to all parishioners…letters went home to the parents of the RE students encouraging them to join their children for the talk - 2 senior citizens showed up. 0 parents. :crying:

It’s like that in my parish, too. That’s why the DRE said it was his ideal. He tried to offer family catechesis, but the parents weren’t interested. They wanted to drop the kids off! —KCT

 

[Vanessa]

kage_ar:

.

I was that kid – I knew more than the youth ministers (non-Catholic back then), and it put me into quite a rebellious place. My story had a happy ending, my self-study planted seeds that later led me to the Catholic Church, however, to have skipped the rebellious years would have been the better way. I’ve mentioned the book “Why Christian Kids Rebel” before, and one reason that book rang true for me was where the author addresses this specific issue with spiritual know it all teens – back to the regularly scheduled discussion.

Thankyou, it’s comforting to have someone understand what I am experiencing. Perhaps I understand my children more than most parents, I am with them all the time.

I don’t understand how others are saying, in my words, “Yes, it’s bad, but not that bad. Just explain it to them and give them the posion anyway, even if you see them turn purple. The Bishop must be obeyed no matter what.”

A fellow hser told me she let her son argue in CCD class. And he’s having trouble with his faith now as a young adult. She didn’t put the two together, I was beginning to wonder if I was seeing things, but thank you for letting me know your history.

 

[Vanessa]

genealogist:

Not to get everyone all torked off but it does seem that there is a very “individualistic” bent to homeshoolers. For eg. I did not like the sex ed, I did not like the pro-feminist theology, I did not agree with this. This is exactly why we have so many Protestant churches. Sometimes you just have to “BEAR WRONGS PATIENTLY”. This does not mean you can’t get miffed but did all these homeschoolers have to bail from the public and parochial schools? How do you stay part of your city, state and nation? Honestly, almost nothing is the way I would like it to be but I would drive myself insane if I had to remove myself from all those whom I disagree with.

I would call them “strong-willed” and it often causes frustrations because of so many bossy women. But the benefits of strong women outweighs the negatives. You obviously want them back in your schools. You seem to believe that if they were back there that your kids would be better off. I believe you’re fooling yourself, and watching other people bail the “accepted” makes you feel guilty. But instead of looking at yourself and your own failings, you take your anger out on us.

I began hsing because of sex ed. I would continue even if the best school in the country moved next door and offered free tuition. The benefits of a family cannot be replaced.

There’s lots of studies on hsers that show they are more socially conscious than other types of schooled groups. It might seem that they are separating themselves from everyone, so therefore they are not adding to society, but that’s wrong. We are raising are children in a healthy environment so they can be healthy adults and contribute in a healthy way. I don’t know of any gardener or rancher who says “Ah heck, raising the little boogers with bad food and environment only makes them more valuable when mature.” Only humans are treated that way.

 

[Vanessa]

genealogist:

I think there have been many diplomatic and helpful replies on this thread. I don’t want to fan the flames but share in all candor how some of us see those of you like Vanessa. How do you make it work in the parish liturgy? I have a hard time believing that your liturgy is aok orthodox and ONLY the CCD is screwed up. Is it the reality that you have to begrudgingly put up with bad priests to get Communion. The Duggers in AK have 16 kids, homeschool and now homechurch. They were never RC that I know of but is the Mass and the need for a priest the only way that homeschoolers have stayed away from home worship?

.

Everyone on the thread have been very polite, I agree. My church offers offers a faithful mass. The priest is just very tired.

 

[DiZent]

I had few complaints about the SRE/CCD program at my parish when my kids were young other than scheduling. I think that the kids were required to attend if it was a sacrament year. I remember doing the homeschool RE one year for my daughter. For her confirmatin year, our parish had started a 2 yr program, and we could not get her to the classes at the time/day they were offered - had to ask the pastor for special permission for her to attend the Confirmation program at my sister-in-law’s parish - which he grudgingly gave. The DRE eventually re-worked the entire program because they lost so many kids/parents. As for parents dropping off the kids - I think the worst was when we had CCD for all grades on Sunday. It was convenient, but most of the kids never quite got to Mass. Most of the classes beyond pre-school were moved to weekday evenings, and the confirmation program was eventually moved to Sunday evening - after my daughter had already made her confirmation. We have a new DRE this year, and I am not familiar with how he does things. Some of my kids’ CCD teachers were big on social justice, and light on church teaching - though I don’t think any of them were teaching any blatant error. Some of the RE must have hit it’s mark - both of my kids are grown now - daughter has returned to the church - found a parish where she lives, and son considers himself Catholic, and that the Catholic church is the true faith, but not currently practicing.

 

[genealogist]

Vanessa, I do not feel guilty in the least that my son attends our public school. My only beef with the homeschool crowd is that it is either their way or the highway. Unfortunately, that role is already cast in our Church and they are called bishops. I think it is quite amusing that you have told the parochial principal and the pastor that you know more than they but unfortunately the bishoip is reminding you of your place. A little bit of humility never hurt anybody.

I am not going to say that your rugged individualism makes you a bad Catholic but the bishop is the head of yor local Church and if he makes rules you don’t like, I don’t feel bad for you. It’s his diocese and you must be loyal to him. After all requiring CCD is not exactly denying the Trinty, is it?

We must be loyal to the magesterium, in 2005. It does not do much good to be loyal to the magesterium of 1950 or worse makes ourselves de facto bishops.

 

[Vanessa]

genealogist:

I am not going to say that your rugged individualism makes you a bad Catholic but the bishop is the head of yor local Church and if he makes rules you don’t like, I don’t feel bad for you. It’s his diocese and you must be loyal to him. After all requiring CCD is not exactly denying the Trinty, is it?

We must be loyal to the magesterium, in 2005. It does not do much good to be loyal to the magesterium of 1950 or worse makes ourselves de facto bishops.

You made me realize that I had not done any research on obedience, and I thank you for it. Most sites were about priestly vows of obedience. But I found others. One made me realize that I can’t just quietly shop for a different parish, but must approach my bishop. For brevity, I’ll split what I found into different posts.

Canon 212 §1. Conscious of their own responsibility, the Christian faithful are bound to follow with Christian obedience those things which the sacred pastors, in as much as they represent Christ, declare as teachers of the faith or establish as rulers of the Church. §2. The Christian faithful are free to make known to the pastors of the Church their needs, especially spiritual ones, and their desires. §3. According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess, they have the right and even at times the duty to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful, without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals, with reverence to their pastors, and attentive to common advantage and the dignity of persons.

 

[Vanessa]

This was from a bishop of 35 years. Quite a sermon on obedience by the laity. He seemed a little liberal to me, but I certainly could relate to this statement:

"We hope that the child obeys parents because it believes that the parents want the best for it. We hope it is the same for the student, that they believe the attainments of their teachers are such that what they are imparting is the best for the learner. Can you see why it is so disastrous for incompetents to be teachers, then, at any level of instruction? When they are not credible, they engender contempt, not compliance, much less intelligent obedience. "

bishopbhai.org/obedience.htm

 

[Vanessa]

You might argue about the author, but her arguments look pretty good to me:

Dear Fr. John,

I read your letter regarding Ana’s case. There are a few things I would like to understand, certain things you said, and forgive me if I will contradict part of your letter.

The bishop, as you said, is not acting in accordance with Cardinal Ratzinger and is not following the correct rule of Canon Law and is therefore not in union with the Pope in that issue. In other words he is in total disobedience. Wouldn’t you be disobeying the Church, Pope and God’s Will if you listened and became collaborator to an anarchist who made his own rules to dictate to people?

When you said that you knew of no saint who ‘disobeyed’ her superior, am I wrong if I say that St Joan of Arc was known not to have listened to or obeyed her bishop Cauchon? She listened to God’s voice alone and paid no heed to what her bishop was ordering her to do. She accomplished her mission successfully.

In reading a small booklet Mother Tekla gave me from the Birgittine sisters on Saint Birgitta of Sweden, I read the following on p. 34 & 78 in the book called ‘The Mother of God and Saint Birgitta’, published by the Vatican Polyglot press 1983: “For the sake of obedience, it is better to surrender ones own will even if it is good and obey that of a superior UNLESS it is harmful to the salvation of the soul or in some other way unreasonable.” Next, about a priest: “He should humbly obey his superior in everything THAT IS NOT CONTRARY to God.”

The virtue of obedience needs discernment and a great deal of interior light to assess it to see if what is demanded comes from God and is in accordance with God’s Will. If what is ordered by a superior or bishop is not according to the teachings of the Church and not according to the rules of Canon Law and mainly not according to God’s Divine Will, according to Our Lady (who spoke to St. Birgitta) am I wrong if I say that one should not obey just for the sake of saying you obeyed? One needs shrewdness because, correct me if I am wrong, if this bishop or superior breaks the divine law and Will of God, then what he does is contrary to God’s Will. He is the one who is disobeying and in this case is enlivening something that is dead and abolished, and that is the Index. To me, this bishop has made his own rules and canon laws. If, (I take this as an extreme example) the bishop tells Ana to go and hang herself next time, should she listen to aomething that is against God’s rules and kill herself? How would you advise her there?

If the Church teaches us to be good Christians and encourages us laity to evangelize and pray, and then you have a bishop who dashes in and tells you that your prayer group should be dissolved, should one obey?

It is true that a Christian, as you say, must read the Scriptures and listen to the teaching authority of the Church. So we should listen to what Scriptures say in Acts 4, 18-20: "So they called them in and gave them a warning on no account to make statements or to teach in the name of Jesus. But Peter and John retorted, ‘You must judge whether in God’s eyes it is right to listen to you and not to God. We cannot promise to stop proclaiming what we have seen and heard’ " Then this, Acts 5, 29: “obedience to God comes before obedience to men.” Has it occurred to you that the reaction of that bishop is very much in the way freemasons behave and that he most likely might be one and an enemy of the Church?

What can one say as well on Mt. 12, 1-8? Especially the words of Christ: “What I want is mercy, not sacrifice.” To me it looks like Ana sacrificed a lot and one should ask: “Has this act pleased Jesus?”

Again, forgive me for challenging you and I will appreciate you answer me and correct me where I am wrong.

In God’s love,
Vassula
tlig.info/obed.html

 

[Vanessa]

The question was about kneeling, but the principle is pertinent:

As said, the obedience of the faithful to the priest is in virtue of communion with the Church and consequently they have no obligation to obey a priest who directs them to perform or omit acts contrary to Church norms, because in doing so he fails to fulfill his mission of leading in communion.

ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur91.htm

 

[Vanessa]

What is obedience? This is what one must understand before accusing anyone … of being “disobedient.”
As Saint Thomas teaches, obedience is a special virtue consisting in one’s readiness to follow the lawful command of one’s lawful superior, when the superior is acting within the sphere of his authority. (Summa Theologica, II-II, 104.)
Despite what some people in the Church today suppose, obedience is not a theological virtue. Unlike faith, hope and charity, obedience does not have God as its object, but rather the command of one’s human superior. Accordingly, it is nonsense to say, as some do, that one is not a Catholic if one does not “obey.” One may indeed sin through disobedience to a human superior, but in committing that sin one remains a Catholic, as do Catholics who commit other sins which do not involve the loss of Faith. The matter involved in the precise sin of disobedience is failing to give a human superior what is due to him in justice. This is to be distinguished from sinning against faith (by heresy), sinning against hope (despairing of one’s own salvation) or sinning against charity (by unkindness toward another).
So, three things must be present in order to establish a duty of obedience to one’s human superior: (1) a lawful command, (2) by a lawful superior, (3) acting within the proper sphere of his authority. As Saint Thomas puts it most succinctly: “a subject is not bound to obey his superior if the latter command him to do something wherein he is not subject to him.” To these three criteria must be added a fourth, from the basic moral law: the subject has a duty to obey the command of his superior unless he has a legitimate excuse from obedience, such as illness, impossibility or truly grave inconvenience.
Regarding the first criterion — that the command be lawful — the Church has always taught that one may not obey any command which is contrary to the law of God. As Saint Thomas says: “if the emperor commands one thing and God another, you must disregard the former and obey God.” Likewise, Saint Peter teaches that “God must be obeyed rather than men.”
All of this is really a matter of simple common sense.

fatimapriest.com/contro08.html

 

[genealogist]

Vanessa, Thanks for your replies. I appreciate your thoughts and wish you success. Hopefully, the CCD at your parish will improve and be more fitting like the liturgy you mentioned above.

It is a very sad state of affairs that so much institutional education is poor. I don’t disagree with your diagnosis so much as with your prescription to fix the problems. I think we are modern versions of the Puritans and Seperatists; I want to fix things from within and homeschoolers appear to believe the system can’t be fixed and they do their fixing outside the parish and public schools.

I trust a remnant of the faithful will lead the Church into the furture. I am confident that there will be homeschoolers in that group but just as confident that parochial and CCD families will play their part as well.

 

[Vanessa]

genealogist:

I trust a remnant of the faithful will lead the Church into the future. I am confident that there will be homeschoolers in that group but just as confident that parochial and CCD families will play their part as well.

Gosh, I hope so. Who will my kids marry otherwise?

 

[Riley259]

Vanessa:

Our bishop just published some unfriendly rules for homeschoolers receiving the sacraments. This has led to a lot of conversation among us. Someone said that 30 hours of CCD a year can’t accomplish much positive and certainly can’t do harm either. I don’t agree.

I’m not talking about a physical molestation or anything overt like that. But an ignorant catechist, teaching nonsense to a budding young adult makes that student judge the Church by this person of authority and gives them feelings of disgust and superiority.

I believe this is harmful. All is not lovely in the Church, never was, and never will be. But I want my children to focus as much as possible on the beautiful, the ideal. That’s how they think at this age.

Yes, an ignorant and/or dissenting catechist can potentially do a great deal of harm. Our parish has had catechists who are pro-abortion, pro same-sex marriage and in general negative towards the Catholic church. Why does the head of religious education allow these people to teach? Because of lack of numbers - not enought people are doing it. A faithful Catholic who can work with children and be an effective catechist is a gift - for those of you that have this gift, I beg you to use it! God Bless.