Can Christians be Nontrinitarian?

[thephilosopher6]

I’m a Nontrinitarian. Well, I actually do believe that God being a trinity is possible, but based on my study of the scriptures it seems to me that God is not a trinity. But anyway, are groups such as Oneness Pentecostal and Jehovah Witness considered Christians in Catholicism? I consider myself nondenomination, but I was baptized Catholic as a baby and do have deep respect for the Catholic Church. Anyway, what do you think?

 

[franklinstower]

I’m a Nontrinitarian. Well, I actually do believe that God being a trinity is possible, but based on my study of the scriptures it seems to me that God is not a trinity. But anyway, are groups such as Oneness Pentecostal and Jehovah Witness considered Christians in Catholicism? I consider myself nondenomination, but I was baptized Catholic as a baby and do have deep respect for the Catholic Church. Anyway, what do you think?

Could you explain God the father and his relationship to Jesus and the holy spirit in your non-trinitarian view? I wont attack your position- just want to understand

 

[Bran_Stark]

Roman Catholics and conservative Evangelicals tend to define “Christian” in a way that limits it to believers in the Trinity. I, however, think this definition is unhelpful. Although I am myself a very orthodox believer in the Trinity who believes that non-Trinitarians are seriously in error, I regard “Christian” as a demographic category that means someone who follows a religion about Jesus, not a theological category about who is on the path of salvation.

 

[franklinstower]

Roman Catholics and conservative Evangelicals tend to define “Christian” in a way that limits it to believers in the Trinity. I, however, think this definition is unhelpful. Although I am myself a very orthodox believer in the Trinity who believes that non-Trinitarians are seriously in error, I regard “Christian” as a demographic category that means someone who follows a religion about Jesus, not a theological category about who is on the path of salvation.

Is Mormonism included in your definition of Christian?

 

[thephilosopher6]

Could you explain God the father and his relationship to Jesus and the holy spirit in your non-trinitarian view? I wont attack your position- just want to understand

I understand the Father as God. Jesus is the ressurected Messiah. The Holy Spirit… well… I am going to completley honest, I don’t really what the Holy Spirit is. I don’t know if it is a force like the JW’s claim. Or if it is a real conciouss entity as “orthodox” Christianity claims. Or maybe it is just a personification or metaphor for something. I have really only examined Christiology which has led me to conclude that Jesus is probably not God. Have you ever read New Testament scholar James D.G Dunn’s book called, Christiology in the Making?

P.S I am do believe some of the earliest Church Fathers taught the divinity of Christ, and perhaps even the Johanine literature did too. But Paul and the Synoptics don’t seem to be teaching trinitarian theology.

 

[thephilosopher6]

Is Mormonism included in your definition of Christian?

Hmmm… yes… well… they do believe in Jesus so from a scholalry point of view… yes… but EXTREMELY unorthodox Christians.

 

[franklinstower]

Hmmm… yes… well… they do believe in Jesus so from a scholalry point of view… so yes… but EXTREMELY unorthodox Christians.

That’s one of the very few that I would have to exclude from Christianity. Its a different God (literally) a different Jesus also. It is the addition of scriptures that redefine the New Testament that I cant get around.

 

[franklinstower]

I understand the Father as God. Jesus is the ressurected Messiah. The Holy Spirit… well… I am going to completley honest, I don’t really what the Holy Spirit is. I don’t know if it is a force like the JW’s claim. Or if it is a real conciouss entity as “orthodox” Christianity claims. Or maybe it is just a personification or metaphor for something. I have really only examined Christiology which has led me to conclude that Jesus is probably not God. Have you ever read New Testament scholar James D.G Dunn’s book called, Christiology in the Making?

P.S I am do believe some of the earliest Church Fathers taught the divinity of Christ, and perhaps even the Johanine literature did too. But Paul and the Synoptics don’t seem to be teaching trinitarian theology.

I can really see why some people find the trinity hard to swallow. I appreciate the concept of the Trinity and it has been directly relevant to me mystically so I fully align with it but I’m not trying to get you to see it that way.

Is Jesus the incarnation of God for you?-- is Jesus God in form or a creation of God?

 

[thephilosopher6]

That’s one of the very few that I would have to exclude from Christianity. Its a different God (literally) a different Jesus also. It is the addition of scriptures that redefine the New Testament that I cant get around.

You make a good point. Mormonism is hard to define. You have scholars of religion considering them to be a form of restorationist Christianity because they believe in Jesus. But Muslims believe in Jesus too, why not place them as Christians? But then again, Mormonism central figure is still Jesus and Islam central figure is Muhammed. So, it’s kinda hard to really define.

 

[thephilosopher6]

I can really see why some people find the trinity hard to swallow. I appreciate the concept of the Trinity and it has been directly relevant to me mystically so I fully align with it but I’m not trying to get you to see it that way.

Is Jesus the incarnation of God for you?-- is Jesus God in form or a creation of God?

The mysticality of the trinity is not why I reject it. I reject it because Paul and and the Synoptics don’t seem to present trinitarian theology. Hebrews is also questionable on whether it presents trinitarianism or not. As before, I really recomend you read James D. G. Dunns book called Christiology in the Making. And no, Jesus is not God to me. Atleast not in the way you see him to be.

 

[franklinstower]

^^^^^^

For me it comes down to the god of the Mormon religion being a god among many gods-- literally according to them. I just think that they confuse deified human beings, or demons, or angels, for gods in that religion. I don’t believe the Mormon scriptures are legitimate and since Jesus said and did so many things in those scriptures that I do not believe he said or did-- things that redefine Christianity so fundamentally- I cant see them as Christian.

 

[thephilosopher6]

^^^^^^

For me it comes down to the god of the Mormon religion being a god among many gods-- literally according to them. I just think that they confuse deified human beings, or demons, or angels, for gods in that religion. I don’t believe the Mormon scriptures are legitimate and since Jesus said and did so many things in those scriptures that I do not believe he said or did-- things that redefine Christianity so fundamentally- I cant see them as Christian.

And that is why Mormonism is so hard to define. Are they Christians, are they not? In scholalry view I would have to say they are Christians. Spiritually though… probably not…

 

[franklinstower]

The mysticality of the trinity is not why I reject it. I reject it because Paul and and the Synoptics don’t seem to present trinitarian theology. Hebrews is also questionable on whether it presents trinitarianism or not. As before, I really recomend you read James D. G. Dunns book called Christiology in the Making. And no, Jesus is not God to me. Atleast not in the way you see him to be.

What I meant to say was that the Trinity is the only concept of God that matches my mystical experience with God so I find it compelling. The scriptural support is just so so for me but I can see how they came up with it. Ill look into the book.

In what way is Jesus God or not God in nontrinitarianism? Again I am not looking for holes in your position to exploit, I am just genuinely curious.

 

[thephilosopher6]

What I meant to say was that the Trinity is the only concept of God that matches my mystical experience with God so I find it compelling. The scriptural support is just so so for me but I can see how they came up with it. Ill look into the book.

In what way is Jesus God or not God in nontrinitarianism? Again I am not looking for holes in your position to exploit, I am just genuinely curious.

Jesus is not God in substance. He is not God incarnate. He is simply not God. However, Jesus seems to be a manifestation of Gods person and who God is. He is the human manifestation of God. See what I am saying? I do believe God can be worshiped through Jesus.

 

[franklinstower]

Jesus is not God in substance. He is not God incarnate. He is simply not God. However, Jesus seems to be a manifestation of Gods person and who God is. He is the human manifestation of God. See what I am saying? I do believe God can be worshiped through Jesus.

I do see what you are saying.

 

[The_Murray]

As a Catholic, no is the most simple and accurate answer.

Let me quote a creed with bold.

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Essence of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Essence of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood by God. One altogether; not by confusion of Essence; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

Catholic in todays context simply would mean “christian.”

Just for fun: 1 John 3:7
“For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.”

3 distinct entities, at the same time 1. That is the foundation for the trinity.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Personally, I think bringing Mormonism into the discussion is not helpful since its theology is so…unique. It is really not compatible with Catholic or Orthodox thought on so very many levels.

Essentially, the position you seem to be putting forward is Arian…and it was a position held by various Christians prior to the Council of Nicea in 325.

I would suggest reading selected writings from the Fathers of the Church, especially De Trinitate by Saint Augustine, in order to better consider the mystery of the Trinity in light of their thought as well as their reflections on the content of Sacred Scripture.

 

[Usige]

I guess it depends on what you mean by calling ones self Christian. Anyone can declare they are anything they want, but that doesn’t mean that others would agree with their statement.

On the whole I would say that the Catholic Church would not hold a non-trinitarian as a Christian. The nicean creed was once the yardstick by which Christian belief was measured. Rejection of the dual nature of Christ (wholly human and wholly divine) would be to reject a key doctrine of Christianity. This would fall into one of the heresies condemned by the Church such as Catharism, Arianism, or modalism (e.g. patripassianism/sabellianism).

In general I would say that only a tiny minority of Christians throughput history would consider non-trinitarians as worshiping the same God. Would a Jewish person who prayed through Jesus be a Christian or a nontraditional Jew. In otherwords why are Judaism, Islam, and Christianity different unless one says they follow the examples of 3 different neat guys?

 

[BartholomewB]

I have never had any personal contact with Unitarians, either face to face or online, but it is my understanding that they consider themselves to be a Christian church and that they are accepted as such by most, if not all, other churches.

 

[mlz]

No they can’t and one must be baptised in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to be a valid baptism. (Note the Apostles and Nicean Creeds)

mlz