Can Christians be Nontrinitarian?

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Don_Ruggero said:
Personally, I think bringing Mormonism into the discussion is not helpful since its theology is so…unique. It is really not compatible with Catholic or Orthodox thought on so very many levels.

Essentially, the position you seem to be putting forward is Arian…and it was a position held by various Christians prior to the Council of Nicea in 325.

I would suggest reading selected writings from the Fathers of the Church, especially De Trinitate by Saint Augustine, in order to better consider the mystery of the Trinity in light of their thought as well as their reflections on the content of Sacred Scripture.
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I am not Arian. The Arians saw Jesus as higher then man but lower than God. Kinda like a demigod. To me, Jesus is a human who has been given an exalted status by God. And yes, I know the Church Fathers taught the trinity, or whatever form it was in before Niceae. But, the divinity of Christ seems to be a late 1st century developement. There is no indication of it in Paul or the Synoptics. But we can see it evolve in the New Testament. Paul and the Synoptics seem to view Jesus as exalted by God to the status of Son of God. Then, we have Hebrews presenting Jesus as more then an exatled man and more of a demigod. Actually, Hebrews may be presenting a form of primitive Arianism. Once we get to the Johanine literature (Gospel of John, 1 2 3 epistles of John, and Revelation) the theology seems to present Jesus as equal to God and perhaps Jesus as God himself. So it even evolves throughout the New Testament and by the end of the 1st century to the start of the 2nd century, most Christians see Jesus as God or equal to God in some way.
 
Usige said:
I guess it depends on what you mean by calling ones self Christian. Anyone can declare they are anything they want, but that doesn’t mean that others would agree with their statement.

On the whole I would say that the Catholic Church would not hold a non-trinitarian as a Christian. The nicean creed was once the yardstick by which Christian belief was measured. Rejection of the dual nature of Christ (wholly human and wholly divine) would be to reject a key doctrine of Christianity. This would fall into one of the heresies condemned by the Church such as Catharism, Arianism, or modalism (e.g. patripassianism/sabellianism).

In general I would say that only a tiny minority of Christians throughput history would consider non-trinitarians as worshiping the same God. Would a Jewish person who prayed through Jesus be a Christian or a nontraditional Jew. In otherwords why are Judaism, Islam, and Christianity different unless one says they follow the examples of 3 different neat guys?
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I was baptized Catholic, so to your Church I am still Christian.
 
On the contrary, I have only managed to upgrade my intelligence. You are naive of the New Testament. You have only read it in the context of your faith rather than as actual historical documents that shed light on what the earliest communites of Christians believed. I use to be like you. A stuanch Catholic. Don’t get me wrong, I still have great respect and love for the Catholic faith. Still, your additude is that of a foolish person.
 
Jesus’ divinity is pretty strong in the Gospel of Matthew, too. It’s rampant throughout the entire gospel. He is Lord of the Sabbath. He is the Sabbath. He forgives sins. He is the new Torah. He brings judgment. Jesus puts himself on the same level as God throughout Matthew, even if he doesn’t just plainly state “I am God” to our twenty-first century ears (though certainly the first century Jews saw it). I think it’s wrong to say there’s no divinity of Jesus in the synoptics, even just because of Matthew.

Paul also frequently quotes old testament passages that clearly referred to God but redirects it to Jesus. I’m not sure it’s right to say the divine nature is lacking here as well.

I think it’s just easy to miss without being a first century Jew. I think it would be rather insulting to the authors to tell them they didn’t know what they were doing or that this wasn’t intended.

Anyway, I’m not sure I’d argue with you about whether you can call yourself Christian or not. I’m not sure. I want to be charitable and polite, but where do we draw the line?
 
The Scriptures teach the father , son and Spirit as three distinct persons ( baptising in the name of the father , son , and Holy Spirit ) , yet one God ( read the shema)
The father is God that we can agree on ,
The son is the eternal word ( John 1 ) and human ( luke2) so he is God the son and man
The Holy Spirit is the Comforter who is also equal with God ( read 1 John )
Read Gen 1:1 in the beginning Eluhimeu ( Composite Unity i.e. Three distinct persons one God) used multiple times in the Old Testament ) created the heavens and the earth.

Multiple early creeds such as the Jerusalem and apostles creeds teach the Trinity as do the ECFs .
 
thephilosopher6 said:
I’m a Nontrinitarian. Well, I actually do believe that God being a trinity is possible, but based on my study of the scriptures it seems to me that God is not a trinity. But anyway, are groups such as Oneness Pentecostal and Jehovah Witness considered Christians in Catholicism? I consider myself nondenomination, but I was baptized Catholic as a baby and do have deep respect for the Catholic Church. Anyway, what do you think?
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No. Those with invalid baptism, per the Catholic Church, are not Christians. Therefore these groups are not Christians:
  • Apostolic Church
  • Christian Community (Rudolf Steiner)
  • Christian Scientist
  • Church of Divine Science
  • Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (Mormon)
  • Church of the Universal Brotherhood (Dukhobars)
  • Universalists and Unitarians
  • Salvation Army
  • Christadelphian
  • Jehovah’s Witnesses
  • Bohemian Free Thinkers
  • Masons
  • Quaker
  • Shakers
  • Reunification Church (Moonies)
  • Peoples Church of Chicago
  • New Church of Mr. Emmanuel Swedenborg
  • Church of New Jerusalem
Doubtful:
  • Pentecostal
  • Mennonite
  • Moravian
  • Seventh Day Adventist
 
Vico said:
No. Those with invalid baptism, per the Catholic Church, are not Christians. Therefore these groups are not Christians:
  • Apostolic Church
  • Christian Community (Rudolf Steiner)
  • Christian Scientist
  • Church of Divine Science
  • Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (Mormon)
  • Church of the Universal Brotherhood (Dukhobars)
  • Universalists and Unitarians
  • Salvation Army
  • Christadelphian
  • Jehovah’s Witnesses
  • Bohemian Free Thinkers
  • Masons
  • Quaker
  • Shakers
  • Reunification Church (Moonies)
  • Peoples Church of Chicago
  • New Church of Mr. Emmanuel Swedenborg
  • Church of New Jerusalem
Doubtful:
  • Pentecostal
  • Mennonite
  • Moravian
  • Seventh Day Adventist
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Quakers , Penecostals , Salvation Army , Mennonites, Moravians , and Seventh day Adventists ARE Christians , the others on the list are not Christians.
 
Wesrock said:
Jesus’ divinity is pretty strong in the Gospel of Matthew, too. It’s rampant throughout the entire gospel. He is Lord of the Sabbath. He forgives sins. He is the new Torah. He brings judgment. Jesus puts himself on the same level as God throughout Matthew, even if he doesn’t just plainly state “I am God” to our twenty-first century ears (though certainly the first century Jews saw it). I think it’s wrong to say there’s no divinity of Jesus in the synoptics, even just because of Matthew.

Paul also frequently quotes old testament passages that clearly referred to God but redirects it to Jesus. I’m not sure it’s right to say the divine nature is lacking here as well.

I think it’s just easy to miss without being a first century Jew. I think it would be rather insulting to the authors to tell them they didn’t know what they were doing or that this wasn’t intended.

Anyway, I’m not sure I’d argue with you about whether you can call yourself Christian or not. I’m not sure. I want to be charitable and polite, but where do we draw the line?
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That doesn’t nesciarily make Jesus God. As James Dunn says, it could simply show that Jesus has been given permission by God to forgive sins or to be Lord of the Sabbath. The way the verse is written in Greek in Matthew where Jesus can forgive sins all implys that God specially have him the power because Matthew puts in the words ξουσίαν ἔχει] which can mean that it was specially given to him by God.
 
Starwarsfan2 said:
The Scriptures teach the father , son and Spirit as three distinct persons ( baptising in the name of the father , son , and Holy Spirit ) , yet one God ( read the shema)
The father is God that we can agree on ,
The son is the eternal word ( John 1 ) and human ( luke2) so he is God the son and man
The Holy Spirit is the Comforter who is also equal with God ( read 1 John )
Read Gen 1:1 in the beginning Eluhimeu ( Composite Unity i.e. Three distinct persons one God) used multiple times in the Old Testament ) created the heavens and the earth.

Multiple early creeds such as the Jerusalem and apostles creeds teach the Trinity as do the ECFs .
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Much of the documents came later in Christianity, the Gospel of John was a late gospel too. And you now interpret Genesis in a way it should not be interpreted.
 
In any case, what you may be referencing is the Arian Heresy that did occur in the early Church days. That was not a majority view, rather a schismatic view that was starting to gain steam.

Read the early church writings, read the writings of our church’s fathers, I think you’d be surprised where historical evidence actually points. In the same way, what in the new testament convinced you of the lack of trinity?
 
I’m starting to get the feeling that you may not believe the Bible is infallible.

True interpretation or have I gravely misread your views?
 
I think this thread will be interesting to see how it develops. The OP seems to already know what the Catholic stance is on the subject so no need to give my opinion. What will be interesting is how nondenominational Christians will argue with nondenominational Christian on this subject and in the end see how unity will look within “Christianity”.

Peace!!!
 
thephilosopher6 said:
I’m a Nontrinitarian. Well, I actually do believe that God being a trinity is possible, but based on my study of the scriptures it seems to me that God is not a trinity. But anyway, are groups such as Oneness Pentecostal and Jehovah Witness considered Christians in Catholicism? I consider myself nondenomination, but I was baptized Catholic as a baby and do have deep respect for the Catholic Church. Anyway, what do you think?
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You can decide to invent the God of your understanding however you choose…that does not make it true. Only the trinitarian God of the Bible as understood in the Catholic tradition (See the Council of Nicaea) has withstood the scrutiny of time (2000+ years) and some of the brightest minds in history (e.g. St. Thomas Aquinas)
 
The_Murray said:
In any case, what you may be referencing is the Arian Heresy that did occur in the early Church days. That was not a majority view, rather a schismatic view that was starting to gain steam.

Read the early church writings, read the writings of our church’s fathers, I think you’d be surprised where historical evidence actually points. In the same way, what in the new testament convinced you of the lack of trinity?
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I am not Arian, I am closer to adoptionism. You also do not seem to get what I am saying. Yes, I accept the Fathers probably believed in the trinity or whatever form it was in before Nicea. But the earliest parts of the New Testament do not seem to advocate trinitarian theology. If we look at the New Testament from a historical perspective, we can see how Christians viewed Jesus develope through the New Testament over time.
 
thephilosopher6 said:
I understand the Father as God. Jesus is the ressurected Messiah. The Holy Spirit… well… I am going to completley honest, I don’t really what the Holy Spirit is. I don’t know if it is a force like the JW’s claim. Or if it is a real conciouss entity as “orthodox” Christianity claims. Or maybe it is just a personification or metaphor for something. I have really only examined Christiology which has led me to conclude that Jesus is probably not God. Have you ever read New Testament scholar James D.G Dunn’s book called, Christiology in the Making?

P.S I am do believe some of the earliest Church Fathers taught the divinity of Christ, and perhaps even the Johanine literature did too. But Paul and the Synoptics don’t seem to be teaching trinitarian theology.
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Oneness Pentecostals, whom you mentioned in your initial post, do believe in the divinity of Jesus even though they do not believe in a Trinitarian G-d. However, they also believe that Jesus assumes various manifestations, such as the Father and the Holy Spirit. Further, there are other Pentecostals who are Trinitarian in the traditional sense.

There are also Nazarene Jews, who, like you, believe in the Messiahship of Jesus but not the divinity. They consider themselves Jews although they might also be considered as an offshoot of the ancient Jewish Christians.

The whole topic can get very complicated, and who is Christian or non-Christian may depend on the person or religious denomination who evaluates the situation. Incidentally, it is likewise not totally clear-cut who is regarded as a Jew or not.
 
thephilosopher6 said:
I am not Arian, I am closer to adoptionism. You also do not seem to get what I am saying. Yes, I accept the Fathers probably believed in the trinity or whatever form it was in before Nicea. But the earliest parts of the New Testament do not seem to advocate trinitarian theology. If we look at the New Testament from a historical perspective, we can see how Christians viewed Jesus develope through the New Testament over time.
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So. , you deny the inerrancy of Scripture , that’s a double heresy .
 
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