Can Christians be Nontrinitarian?

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The_Murray said:
I’m starting to get the feeling that you may not believe the Bible is infallible.

True interpretation or have I gravely misread your views?
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I wouldn’t say it is fallible. Rather I would say it can offer different acceptable theological viewpoints for Christians…
 
meltzerboy said:
Oneness Pentecostals, whom you mentioned in your initial post, do believe in the divinity of Jesus even though they do not believe in a Trinitarian G-d. However, they also believe that Jesus assumes various manifestations, such as the Father and the Holy Spirit. Further, there are other Pentecostals who are Trinitarian in the traditional sense.

There are also Nazarene Jews, who, like you, believe in the Messiahship of Jesus but not the divinity. They consider themselves Jews although they might also be considered as an offshoot of the ancient Jewish Christians.

The whole topic can get very complicated, and who is Christian or non-Christian may depend on the person or religious denomination who evaluates the situation. Incidentally, it is likewise not totally clear-cut who is regarded as a Jew or not.
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Same with Jews. 😉 Orthodox Jews don’t view Conservative or Reformed Jews as true Jews,.right?
 
One of my graduate degrees is in biblical studies, so I really don’t consider myself naive on matters related to the New Testament. Before retiring, I was a professor who taught on rotation both Trinity and Christology and so I also do not find the conclusions you draw to be accurate – about either the thought of Paul or the thoughts of the Synoptic writers.

There are profound theological ramifications that rest upon the various decisions of the first seven ecumenical councils relative to the Trinitarian heresies and the Christological controversies. If you choose an Adoptionist position, for example, then one is left with many soteriological problems that are not resolvable. There is a reason that heresy presented itself early and was dismissed by the Church; it was theologically inadequate in the face of the very data from Sacred Scripture. Your posts seem to indicate that you have awareness of all, or at least most, of these issues.

I am not clear, thephilosopher6, if your approach relative to your posts is merely philosophical and/or historical or if it is really from a faith perspective. If your search is truly a sincere one, then I re-propose the writings of the Fathers of the Church and the deliberations of the Council Fathers since they grappled with many of the issues you say you are struggling with yourself, such as how to understand the Holy Spirit. If, on the other hand, your post is simply to be provocative, that would not be very nice.

In any event, hoping that yours is a sincere search for Truth, I wish you well in your faith journey and I pray that the Lord will guide you to Himself and to a deeper and ever fuller knowledge of Him and the mystery of His inner life.

Good night.
 
thephilosopher6 said:
Same with Jews. 😉 Orthodox Jews don’t view Conservative or Reformed Jews as true Jews,.right?
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That is not correct. Orthodox Jews view all Jews as legitimate Jews. Their quibble is with the rabbis of Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist Judaism, who, they believe, are leading their congregations astray.
 
meltzerboy said:
That is not correct. Orthodox Jews view all Jews as legitimate Jews. Their quibble is with the rabbis of Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist Judaism, who, they believe, are leading their congregations astray.
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Going off topic for a sec , do they view Christian Jews as Jews .
 
Starwarsfan2 said:
Going off topic for a sec , do they view Christian Jews as Jews .
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That’s a tough one. Orthodox Jews may be split on this. On the one hand, one can never lose one’s birthright if one is born of a Jewish mother; on the other hand, if one renounces Judaism by converting to Christianity, such as Hebrew Catholics and some Messianic Jews have done, one may be regarded as separated from Judaism.
 
meltzerboy said:
That’s a tough one. Orthodox Jews may be split on this. On the one hand, one can never lose one’s birthright if one is born of a Jewish mother; on the other hand, if one renounces Judaism by converting to Christianity, such as Hebrew Catholics and some Messianic Jews have done, one may be regarded as separated from Judaism.
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So, we are Jews , but not " Judaists" ,
 
Starwarsfan2 said:
So, we are Jews , but not " Judaists" ,
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In a sense, one may interpret it that way. However, the main interpretation would be that one is no longer considered Jewish. As I said though, there may be a split within the Orthodox Jewish community on this issue. Even Reform Judaism, which admits to a Jewish father as sufficient to one’s identification as a Jew, nonetheless sees conversion to another religion as problematic.
 
Don_Ruggero said:
One of my graduate degrees is in biblical studies, so I really don’t consider myself naive on matters related to the New Testament. Before retiring, I was a professor who taught on rotation both Trinity and Christology and so I also do not find the conclusions you draw to be accurate – about either the thought of Paul or the thoughts of the Synoptic writers.

There are profound theological ramifications that rest upon the various decisions of the first seven ecumenical councils relative to the Trinitarian heresies and the Christological controversies. If you choose an Adoptionist position, for example, then one is left with many soteriological problems that are not resolvable. There is a reason that heresy presented itself early and was dismissed by the Church; it was theologically inadequate in the face of the very data from Sacred Scripture. Your posts seem to indicate that you have awareness of all, or at least most, of these issues.

I am not clear, thephilosopher6, if your approach relative to your posts is merely philosophical and/or historical or if it is really from a faith perspective. If your search is truly a sincere one, then I re-propose the writings of the Fathers of the Church and the deliberations of the Council Fathers since they grappled with many of the issues you say you are struggling with yourself, such as how to understand the Holy Spirit. If, on the other hand, your post is simply to be provocative, that would not be very nice.

In any event, hoping that yours is a sincere search for Truth, I wish you well in your faith journey and I pray that the Lord will guide you to Himself and to a deeper and ever fuller knowledge of Him and the mystery of His inner life.

Good night.
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Oh, I am a philosopher. I love truth greatly! I have read many of the Church Fathers. Infact, I have studied much of Saint Augustine. I am no expert on him but… try me… lol. Also, I find no soterological problems with Christ not being God. Have you ever heard of the moral influence theory? Indeed, the theory is compatible with trinitarianism and nontrinitarianism.
 
meltzerboy said:
That is not correct. Orthodox Jews view all Jews as legitimate Jews. Their quibble is with the rabbis of Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist Judaism, who, they believe, are leading their congregations astray.
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Oh. I thought I heard somewhere an Orthodox Rabbi claim only Orthodox Jews are true Jews. Eh, whatever.
 
meltzerboy said:
In a sense, one may interpret it that way. However, the main interpretation would be that one is no longer considered Jewish. As I said though, there may be a split within the Orthodox Jewish community on this issue. Even Reform Judaism, which admits to a Jewish father as sufficient to one’s identification as a Jew, nonetheless sees conversion to another religion as problematic.
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Also, just out of curiosity, what Jewish denomination do you belong too? I know we are gettijg off topic, but I’m curious.
 
meltzerboy said:
I consider myself a Reform Jew with some Conservative Jewish leanings.
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Well, I know Reform Jews can have a wide range of different theological views. Some conservstive, as yourself, others not so much.
 
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