Can/Do Catholics Believe in the Baptism with the Holy Spirit? Important Discussion

[BulldogCath]

Yousay that Lay people can not administer a sacrment?-what do you call eucharistic ministers? The same for Baptism and Confirmation, of the matter is blessed-hey why not-this is the year 2005 and anything goes now!

Give it time-the lay people-many of the left and center wing of the church if you read-feel that “Vatican II has not been fully administered” and come to “its fruition” . Within 15 years the priest will sit in the first row, and only be called upon to do a blessing-everything else like the Protestants will be done by the laity.

Exporter:

I think the post by Brother Rich needs posted again.
" Br. Rich SFO"I notice that all of the verses from Acts that this article used to support the sacrament of Confirmation are used by charismatics to support the doctrine of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit."

There is as far as I’m aware no “Doctrine of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit”. Except of course the fact that a person who is Baptized receives the Holy Spirit at the moment of their Baptism. The Indwelling of the Holy Spirit at Bpatism is a Doctrine of the Catholic Church. To me the action of laying on of hands and calling down the Holy Spirit in the “Baptism of the Holy Spirit”. Tends to displace or substitute the role of the Bishop in the Sacrament of Confirmation with a lay action. IMO This confuses many people both in and outside the Church.

---

Here is a man who has devoted his life to the Study of the Roman Catholic Church. I agree with his every word.
Lay people cannot be a substitute for a Bishop and administer the Sacrament of Confirmation; therefore a layperson cannot administer a sacrament. Since laypeople can’t administer a sacrament, any “praying over a person” is not sacramental. Ity wouls seem that then, a layperson cannot “call down” the Holy Spirit in a Baptism of the Holy Spirit. So that claim is false.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Exporter:

Lay people cannot be a substitute for a Bishop and administer the Sacrament of Confirmation; therefore a layperson cannot administer a sacrament. Since laypeople can’t administer a sacrament, any “praying over a person” is not sacramental. Ity wouls seem that then, a layperson cannot “call down” the Holy Spirit in a Baptism of the Holy Spirit. So that claim is false.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. However Lay persons are in fact the ordinary ministers of a Sacrament, Marriage. They each confer this Sacrament on each other.

A lay person can also be an extraordinary minister of Baptism in a case of necessity.

Also laypersons do assist the ordinary minister with the distribution of Holy Communion, when necessary.

Laying hands on a person and praying for them is a sacramental, not to be confused with Sacrament however. I don’t see any problem with doing this in a private or semi-private manner. In a public liturgical setting it could be very confusing.

 

[gusano]

Triple_H:

Let’s just get one fact straight- The Catholic Church has FULLY endorsed the charismatic movement. They have many books on amazon written for charismatic Catholics that talks about this endorsement. That is a fact and cannot be ignored. We can argue that charismatics speak in false tongues. If so, the Catholic Church has endorsed a movement that is false. We must accept this movement as truly from the Spirit because the Catholic Church has said it is. It’s that simple.

Moving on, as anybody who knows anything about the charismatic movement, the most agreed upon belief among the movement, in fact what started it, is the belief in the “Baptism with the Holy Spirit”. It is also referred to as the “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” and “Baptism in the Holy Spirit”.

catholic.com/library/Confirmation.asp
I notice that all of the verses from Acts that this article used to support the sacrament of Confirmation are used by charismatics to support the doctrine of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. We all agree that Scripture speaks of an empowerment with the Holy Spirit that comes after baptism (Acts records it happening before baptism one time). The question is, what is this empowerment called, and when does it happen?

The Catholic Church, as I’ve said, has endorsed the charismatic movement and has always believed that the gifts of the Holy Spirit never ended. Two charismatic Catholic scholars give detailed evidence of the doctrine of “Baptism with the Holy Spirit” in the Early Church up until the 8th century. It is a historical belief.

The main question is, since all Catholics agree that the gifts haven’t ended, and are still available today, how do we receive these gifts? There has to be an event, whether it is Confirmation or the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, that makes these gifts available to a person for the first time.

I here so many charismatics (who happen to be Protestant) speak of unbelievable experiences when they were baptized with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues for the first time. I have not had this experience, nor have I received any gifts. Can the charismatic Catholics on this board talks about how they received the gifts of the Spirit, and how they received this “Baptism with the Holy Spirit”.** How did you receive it, and describe exactly what you happened to you.**

the Lord baptized me with The Holy Spirit one Saturday morning after Mass with (3) visions and speaking in tongues…in spite of all my resistance against tongues.

If indeed the sacrament of Confirmation is when we are Baptized with the Holy Spirit, then why don’t most Catholics receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit upon Confirmation? **Why don’t most Catholics speak in tongues when they are confirmed? **In every example in Acts of this empowerment of the Holy Spirit, the common evidence of it happening in all examples if the evidence of speaking in tongues. This is an important question.

Being required to speak in tongues is basically a "Pentecostal-Assembly of God mindset.
As for Catholics, it is mostly “resistance”, unbelief, or because of not being properly, fully CATECHIZED.

there are situations where “the evangelizers” themselves …are not yet fully evangelized as they attempt to “evangelize” the catechumens.

That is why “REPAIRERS OF THE BREACH” are needed.

 

[gnome]

Br. Rich SFO:

Thanks for the vote of confidence. However Lay persons are in fact the ordinary ministers of a Sacrament, Marriage. They each confer this Sacrament on each other.

so what is the role of the Priest for being there? just as a witness?

Laying hands on a person and praying for them is a sacramental,

is this in Catechism, or can you point me to a reference please?
thanks.

 

[gusano]

Fogny:

Before Confirmation I attended hours of catechism, the sacrament of Confirmation if I remember rightly, marks your soul and the holy spirit confers many graces to lead a pius Catholic life, also to uphold the Faith as an oath.

The baptism of the holy spirit is a Evengelical teaching and is not the same as the sacrament of Confirmation of the Catholic Church. It as a charasmatic experience is not part of Catholic teaching. I give as an example " slain by the spirit".

Fogny

Sorry but I disagree…
Many evangelicals I know personally do not accept “The Baptism in the Holy Spirit” in the same way that some misinformed catholics do not.
same as many Jeh.witnesses do not …and many other "faiths do not.
The Truth is …The Baptism in the Holy Spirit is BIBLICAL; Matt.3:11…
"I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
His winnowing fork is in his hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into His barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

I am a Spirit Filled Catholic since 1965,
It is an “unfolding” of Confirmation…a release of the Spirit.
You have the Spirit since Baptism (infant or adult)…But, does The Spirit have you ?
The Baptism of The Holy Spirit is the Heart and soul of Christ Jesus in the Church.
Without The Holy Spirit there is no evangelism.
and no intimate relation with Jesus Christ.
like machinery without oil.

In saying that (emboldened)…you contradict your own Bible,
you contradict Catholic Teaching; (CCC 1287)…and
you contradict our Holy beloved Pope John Pail II.

I do not mean to offend, but only to state The Truth.

gusano

 

[Dj_Roy_Albert]

James_2:24:

I don’t believe in the “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” as the Pentecostals or the Charistmatic Catholics believe it. At least those Charistmatic Catholics that I have come in contact with in person and online.

I think that this belief is dismissive of the Sacrament of confirmation. I am not aware of it as doctrine in the Catholic Faith, nor do I see it taught in Catholic history as the Charismatics that I have come into contact with have intrepretated it.

God bless you.

Try reading the New Testament sometime.

 

[Dj_Roy_Albert]

Triple_H:

Can anybody on this board reply if they have any of the 9 gifts of the Spirit?

I do. I have the gift of Prophesy, Tongues, Interpretation of Tongues, Wisdom, Healing (I have be instrumental in several documented healings, all for the glory of God) & a very well develped & mature gift of Discerment of Spirits.

I must say that I have pity for every “Catholic” that does not accept the outpouring or “baptism” of the Holy Spirit just because it wasn’t what they were taught in CCD. I can see where the devil has them spiritually stuck right where he want them & they also like there little comfort zone & lack the courage to step forward in faith & allow the Holy Spirit to enrich their lives with His charisms. I have pity for these types of “catholics”.

 

[Mysty101]

This has been discussed in many Charismatic threads.

From:
BAPTISM IN THE HOLY SPIRIT by Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa, OFM.
Fr. Cantalamessa has been the Papal preacher to Pope John Paul II’s Pontifical household since 1980.

catholic-jhb.org.za/articles/baptism.htm#BAPTISM%20IN%20THE%20HOLY%20SPIRIT

"The Baptism in the Spirit is not a sacrament, but it is related to several sacraments. The Baptism in the Spirit makes real and in a way renews Christian initiation. "

There are a few articles at this site.

 

[Mysty101]

PS This topic really belongs in the Spirituality section, since it is not a sacrament, but a part of CCR (Catholic Charismatic Renewal) which is an approved movement of the Catholic Church. CCR is an optional form of worship, so it you do not like it, you do not need to attend. For those who do worship in this style, it increases the fire of the Spirit, and helps us to be more open to His love and gifts.

 

[Mysty101]

Here’s another article
ccc.garg.com/ccc/articles/Cantalamessa/Cantalamessa_002.html

 

[Benadam]

I recieved the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. I wasn’t a practicing catholic but I know it was a grace that was available to me through my Confirmation. I recieved it by responding to personal suffering that Christ joined to His. That response was the result of Grace recieved at my Confirmation and merited the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. My personal suffering is attached to challenges exclusive to adult life and is one reason I know it is Grace through the Sacrament of Confirmation. Life must be viewed as a religious vocation to recieve this baptism because the baptism is an anticipation of trials that will require the Grace it offers to overcome. The trials will present decisions that will force the disciple into a suffering that is even more united to the new life offered in the bapism.These trials suffered in obedience force the disciple into a pattern of life united to the pattern of life imprinted by the Sacrament of Baptism . The beginning of the conscious experience of Grace upon Grace.

Baptism offered by John the Baptists pattern of perfectly righteous life makes a straight way for the baptism offered by Christ’s pattern of perfectly divine life. The two lives are of the same pattern of perfect Life, so are one baptism because the life they both are perfect patterns of is the Life of the Holy Spirit…

I’m just vaguely aquainted with and not affiliated with the charismatic movement. This is my experience of Grace through the Sacraments I recieved and how I’ve come to understand them.

 

[Mysty101]

Yes, I suppose there are other definitions of “Baptism in the Spirit”, which is the most common problem with the term.

The definition of the term which would apply to Catholics involved in CCR is as was described by Fr Candalmassa. It is usually part of a Life in the Spirit Seminar, run by a Catholic Charismatic Prayer Group, but can also happen in other ways.

 

[gusano]

Mysty101:

Yes, I suppose there are other definitions of “Baptism in the Spirit”, which is the most common problem with the term.

The definition of the term which would apply to Catholics involved in CCR is as was described by Fr Candalmassa. It is usually part of a Life in the Spirit Seminar, run by a Catholic Charismatic Prayer Group, but can also happen in other ways.

If the term "Baptism in the Holy Spirit " seems offensive…
why not say “Release of the Holy Spirit” ?
…as opposed to “Do not stifle The Spirit” (1 Thes.5:19)

or “Filled with the Holy Spirit”
…as in Acts 2:4

The important Truth is
"All who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God." (Rom.8:14)

gusano

 

[Mysty101]

Yes, there is confusion with the term, but it is what is common to CCR.

It may be better if the terminology were changed, but this is not up to me.

Here’s a sample format of a Life in the Spirit Seminar.
mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/lifeinthespirit

Today a one day seminar, with differenns sessions, is also veery common.

The “Baptism in the Spirit” Is part of every one I have ever attended, or even discussed or studied.

 

[gusano]

Yes, there is confusion with the term, but it is what is common to CCR.

It may be better if the terminology were changed, but this is not up to me.

The “Baptism in the Spirit” Is part of every one I have ever attended, or even discussed or studied.

The confusion is part of the experience of Pentecost.

(A) there were 120 Disciples gathered. (Acts 1:15)
(B) 120 experienced The Holy Spirit’s Infilling.
(C) A large large crowd (who heard the sound) assembled …
and these were ** Confused, astonished, amazed, dombfounded,** and could make nothing at all on what happened.…(Acts 2:5-13…a few remarked with a sneer, “They have had too much new wine”…

So you see, if you read your New Testament,…
Today, (just as in the infant Church) When the Holy Spirit , The Divine Wind Moves among His people…
Those who experience His power REJOICE !
Those who hear about it but not experience it…do all of the above. (Acts 2:5-13)

 

[gusano]

Mysty101:

This has been discussed in many Charismatic threads.

From:
BAPTISM IN THE HOLY SPIRIT by Fr. Raniero Cantalamessa, OFM.
Fr. Cantalamessa has been the Papal preacher to Pope John Paul II’s Pontifical household since 1980.

catholic-jhb.org.za/articles/baptism.htm#BAPTISM%20IN%20THE%20HOLY%20SPIRIT

There are a few articles at this site.

Thanks Misty, for posting that web site.
I copied it and I intend to distribute it to some of My Charismatic brothers and sisters as well as anyone who is interested in knowing the Holy Spirit more intimately !

gusano