Can/Do Catholics Believe in the Baptism with the Holy Spirit? Important Discussion

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Triple_H

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Let’s just get one fact straight- The Catholic Church has FULLY endorsed the charismatic movement. They have many books on amazon written for charismatic Catholics that talks about this endorsement. That is a fact and cannot be ignored. We can argue that charismatics speak in false tongues. If so, the Catholic Church has endorsed a movement that is false. We must accept this movement as truly from the Spirit because the Catholic Church has said it is. It’s that simple.

Moving on, as anybody who knows anything about the charismatic movement, the most agreed upon belief among the movement, in fact what started it, is the belief in the “Baptism with the Holy Spirit”. It is also referred to as the “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” and “Baptism in the Holy Spirit”.

catholic.com/library/Confirmation.asp
I notice that all of the verses from Acts that this article used to support the sacrament of Confirmation are used by charismatics to support the doctrine of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. We all agree that Scripture speaks of an empowerment with the Holy Spirit that comes after baptism (Acts records it happening before baptism one time). The question is, what is this empowerment called, and when does it happen?

The Catholic Church, as I’ve said, has endorsed the charismatic movement and has always believed that the gifts of the Holy Spirit never ended. Two charismatic Catholic scholars give detailed evidence of the doctrine of “Baptism with the Holy Spirit” in the Early Church up until the 8th century. It is a historical belief.

The main question is, since all Catholics agree that the gifts haven’t ended, and are still available today, how do we receive these gifts? There has to be an event, whether it is Confirmation or the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, that makes these gifts available to a person for the first time.

I here so many charismatics (who happen to be Protestant) speak of unbelievable experiences when they were baptized with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues for the first time. I have not had this experience, nor have I received any gifts. Can the charismatic Catholics on this board talks about how they received the gifts of the Spirit, and how they received this “Baptism with the Holy Spirit”. How did you receive it, and describe exactly what you happened to you.

If indeed the sacrament of Confirmation is when we are Baptized with the Holy Spirit, then why don’t most Catholics receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit upon Confirmation? Why don’t most Catholics speak in tongues when they are confirmed? In every example in Acts of this empowerment of the Holy Spirit, the common evidence of it happening in all examples if the evidence of speaking in tongues. This is an important question.
 
“I notice that all of the verses from Acts that this article used to support the sacrament of Confirmation are used by charismatics to support the doctrine of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.”

There is as far as I’m aware no “Doctrine of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit”. Except of course the fact that a person who is Baptized receives the Holy Spirit at the moment of their Baptism. The Indwelling of the Holy Spirit at Bpatism is a Doctrine of the Catholic Church. To me the action of laying on of hands and calling down the Holy Spirit in the “Baptism of the Holy Spirit”. Tends to displace or substitute the role of the Bishop in the Sacrament of Confirmation with a lay action. IMO This confuses many people both in and outside the Church.
 
I don’t believe in the “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” as the Pentecostals or the Charistmatic Catholics believe it. At least those Charistmatic Catholics that I have come in contact with in person and online.

I think that this belief is dismissive of the Sacrament of confirmation. I am not aware of it as doctrine in the Catholic Faith, nor do I see it taught in Catholic history as the Charismatics that I have come into contact with have intrepretated it.

God bless you.
 
2 Cor 1:21-22 But the one who gives us security (Vulgate, confirmat, confirms) with you in Christ and who anointed us is God; he has also put his seal upon us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a first installment.

In these words, the great Fathers and Doctors of the Church and believers from Apostolic times have seen that sacrament so designated by which the Holy Spirit is confirmed. From this scripture the sacrament was variously known as “confirmation,” “signing,” “anointing.” Acts 8:14-18 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, who went down and prayed for them, that they might receive the holy Spirit, for it had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them and they received the holy Spirit. When Simon saw that the Spirit was conferred by the laying on of the apostles’ hands … Acts 19:1-6 While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul traveled through the interior of the country and came (down) to Ephesus where he found some disciples. He said to them, “Did you receive the holy Spirit when you became believers?” They answered him, “We have never even heard that there is a holy Spirit.” He said, “How were you baptized?” They replied, “With the baptism of John.” Paul then said, “John baptized with a baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus.” When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul laid (his) hands on them, the holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

The constant faith of the Church attests to the existence and practice of the conferring the Holy Spirit to believers. Pope Clement of Rome (92 - 101 AD) in his Letter to the Corinthians listed among the graces given to the people of Corinth “the fullness of the Holy Spirit.”

The Apostolic Father of the Church, Hermas (Rome, 140?), in his writing, The Shepherd, also elaborated this. Tertullian (Rome, 160 - 220) spoke of confirmation at least seven times and most often listed confirmation between baptism and the eucharist. Cyprian (Carthage, 200 - 258) wrote of the necessity of the sacrament and distinguished it from baptism and spoke of it as a complement to baptism.

A local church Council (at Illiberitanum, 300) stated the rite of administration of confirmation.

Pope Innocent I (401 - 417) taught the same rite of confirmation. Jerome (Stridon, 345 - 419) asserted the custom of the Church that priests and deacons baptize; that bishops confer the Holy Spirit. Pope Innocent III (1198 - 1216) taught that through the imposition of hands on the head of the person being confirmed the Holy Spirit is conferred in abundance and strength. The Council of Lyons II (1274) defined the seven sacraments … and confirmation which is conferred through the hands of the bishop … The Council of Trent (1545 - 1563) condemned the errors of the Reformers about this sacrament. The council fathers defined that confirmation is a true and proper sacrament of the Church.

It is often objected that with the sacrament of Baptism the Christian already has the Holy Spirit. The Christian certainly receives the Holy Spirit in Baptism. But that presence of the Spirit is not in that perfect state or total empowering which Christ promised. The very practice of Christ Himself distinguishes the degrees with which the Holy Spirit is conferred.

On the evening of Resurrection Sunday, Jesus conferred the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles. Jn 20:22 He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit.”

Fifty days later, on the Jewish feast of Pentecost, the Apostles received the presence of the Holy Spirit and a greater empowering as promised by Christ (Jn 15:26 and 16:7). Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the holy Spirit … ** **
 
My understanding is that the baptized in the HS people do not say they did not receive the HS in regular baptism and confirmation. Rather, they talk about a experience later on, perhaps where they spoke in tongues, etc. They then seem to more fully identify with the HS. I, obviously, don’t speak in tongues.

It is consistent with Catholic theology to have delayed grace or fruit from the reception of a sacrament (well, not the eucharist…). So if you are confirmed and really aren’t mentally into it like you should be, then later on the graces can revive when you get your act together.

Could that delayed effect apply to something like speaking in tongues, I don’t know.
 
Note that the Apostles (except Thomas) receive the Holy Spirit on the day after Passover:

On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, **“Receive the Holy Spirit.” **
John 20:19-22

Forty days after the Passover, and nine days before the feast of Pentecost, Jesus gives this command to the Apostles:

And while staying with them he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, “you heard from me, for John baptized with water, but before many days you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
Acts 1:4-5

The Apostles received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit fifty days before the received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

In the Eastern Rites, and in the Latin Rite in Spain, infants receive all three Sacraments of Initiation, (Baptism, Confirmation, and Eucharist). Are these infants charismatic infants because they have received the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation? No, they are not. Did these infants receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Yes, they did. When these infants grow up, they can receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, just as the Apostles received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before they received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
 
Triple H
  • The main question is, since all Catholics agree that the gifts haven’t ended, and are still available today, how do we receive these gifts?*
"Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.”
Matt. 7:7

Make love your aim, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.
1Cor. 14:1

So, my brethren, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues …
1Cor. 14:39

Do not quench the Spirit, do not despise prophesying …
1Thes. 5:20
 
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debi:
Matt you just said it all

Blessings
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Thank you! Actually, I didn’t say much, I just let the scriptures do the explaining. 😉
 
Pug said,
It is consistent with Catholic theology to have delayed grace or fruit from the reception of a sacrament (well, not the eucharist…). So if you are confirmed and really aren’t mentally into it like you should be, then later on the graces can revive when you get your act together.
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Could that delayed effect apply to something like speaking in tongues, I don’t know.
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I agree with that exactly!

As far as the tongues, I do know that the tongues mentioned at Pentecost seems to be a different sort then what Paul talks about when praying in angelic tongues, and needing an interpreter. At Pentecost there was no need for an interpreter because everyone heard their own dialect at once, meaning that the work of the Holy Spirit was a much in the hearing as it was in the speaking.

I do know also that the abuse of tongues that the Corinthians were admonished from Paul about is probably the same absue that is done by many chrismatics I know.
 
A better phrase, and more widely used worldwide, than “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” is the “Outpouring of the Holy Spirit.” This term avodis confusion with our Sacramental Baptism.

I have been though this Outpouring and it was a wonderful experience for me and has led me to a much deeper spiritual life than I had before. Beforehand, even though I had converted, I often challenged Church teachings and had an atheists’ stereotypical “Oh yeah” Prove it" kind of attitude. Afterwards, I had a much easier time accepting the teachings, and being submissive to those teachings I did not yet understand. I also had a great joy and peace which has lasted for most of the last 17 years, with some “dark nights of the soul” thrown in there for spiritual growth, no doubt.
 
Matt16_18 said:
Triple H
  • The main question is, since all Catholics agree that the gifts haven’t ended, and are still available today, how do we receive these gifts?*
"Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.”
Matt. 7:7

Make love your aim, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy.
1Cor. 14:1

So, my brethren, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues …
1Cor. 14:39

Do not quench the Spirit, do not despise prophesying …
1Thes. 5:20
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This has nothing to do with how we receive the gifts. Do you have any of the 9 gifts of the Spirit? Can anybody on this board reply if they have any of the 9 gifts of the Spirit?

Don’t confuse the term “Baptism with the Holy Spirit”. Baptism, as we know, means immersion. So “Baptism with the Holy Spirit” means we are immersed into the fullness of the Holy Spirit.

Mt 3:11
He (Jesus) will baptize you with the holy Spirit and fire.
Mk 1:8
I (John) have baptized you with water; he (Jesus) will baptize you with the holy Spirit.
Lk 3:16
He (Jesus) will baptize you with the holy Spirit and fire.
Jn 1:33
On whomever you see the Spirit come down and remain, he is the one who will baptize with the holy Spirit.

catholicapologetics.org/ap060400.htm
"Confirmation is the Catholic Church’s official prayer for the Holy Spirit to empower a person to spread the gospel, to live a fervent Christian life, and share more fully in the mission and ministry of the Church.

Receiving the Holy Spirit in a new way, usually as the result of earnest, expectant prayer, is what many Christians today call being “baptized in the Holy Spirit.”

Being “baptized in the Holy Spirit” is actually a “release” or a “coming to consciousness” of the power of the Holy Spirit who already has been given to the believer through the sacraments of the Church."

This site says Catholics should be “Baptized with the Holy Spirit” upon Confirmation. Can we all agree on this? As we all knwo, most Catholics don’t receive any sort of powerful experience or the gifts upon Confirmation. Maybe this is because their Confirmation is not genuine?

Act 11:15 "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as {He did} upon us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
Act 11:17 “Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as {He gave} to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”

In this passage describing an event of Jesus baptizing people with the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit was not received through laying on of hands, although Acts records it happening that way in other passages. So can we surmise that the Holy Spirit’s overpowering presence, the “Baptism with the Holy Spirit” can be received apart from Confirmation, although it should be received upon Confirmation?

Vatican Council II says-
The Spirit guides the Church into the fullness of truth (Jn 16:13) and gives her a unity of fellowship and service. He furnishes and directs her with various gifts, both hierarchical and charismatic, and adorns her with the fruits of his grace (Eph 4:11-12; 1 Cor 12:4; Gal 5:22).
 
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Matt16_18:
In the Eastern Rites, and in the Latin Rite in Spain, infants receive all three Sacraments of Initiation, (Baptism, Confirmation, and Eucharist). Are these infants charismatic infants because they have received the Sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation? No, they are not. Did these infants receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Yes, they did. When these infants grow up, they can receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, just as the Apostles received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before they received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
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How can an infant possibly be confirmed? The whole point of Confirmation is just that, confirmation in your faith of Jesus!

Are you a charismatic Catholic? Actually, all Catholics are charismatic, because the Church has infallibly said the charismatic gifts are available today. It’s just a question of whether you have received them or not.

So you believe the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is received apart from Confirmation? Have you recieved the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?
 
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Triple_H:
This has nothing to do with how we receive the gifts. Do you have any of the 9 gifts of the Spirit? Can anybody on this board reply if they have any of the 9 gifts of the Spirit?
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I am baptized, so sure, I’ve got 'em. What’s the deal? (I am unaware of a mortal sin). I’ve got some infused faith, hope, and love, too. Now if only I’d practice using them all. :whistle:

[736](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/736.htm’)😉 By this power of the Spirit, God’s children can bear much fruit. He who has grafted us onto the true vine will make us bear "the fruit of the Spirit: . . . love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control."129 “We live by the Spirit”; the more we renounce ourselves, the more we "walk by the Spirit."130
 
How can an infant possibly be confirmed? The whole point of Confirmation is just that, confirmation in your faith of Jesus!
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That’s not exactly true.

The primary purpose of Confirmation is the reception of the fullness of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, which were first received at baptism.

In the early Church, confirmation was called “chrismation” and was almost always given to infants, in the same ceremony as their baptism. In the same ceremony, the infants were given first Communion. These ceremonies were also almost always performed, not by the priest, but by the bishop.

In later centuries, the Eastern and Western Catholic churches diverged in their practice (but not their dotrine). With the growth of so many parishes and converts, it was impossible for the bishop to be present at all baptisms.

The West wanted to maintain the episcopal connection with chrismation. Therefore, confirmation (along with first Communion, but for different reasons) was delayed until the child atained the use of reason, and when the bishop had time to do it. The ceremony came to be called “Confirmation,” and came to include a reaffirmation of baptisimal vows. But this is a Church addition, and not an essential component of the sacrament.

The East wanted to keep all the sacraments of initiation together, even if the bishop could noit be present. Thereofre, the Eastern Ctaholic Churches continued to chrismate infants, and they do so to the present day, with the Pope’s full blessings.

For more info, read what the Catechism says here.
 
Triple H
  • This has nothing to do with how we receive the gifts.*
The church makes the distinction between the seven sanctifying gifts of the Holy Spirit and the charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit (charismata datæ).

The seven sanctifying gifts of the Holy Spirit are received by the Sacrament of Baptism and strengthened by the Sacrament of Confirmation. All validly baptized Christians receive the sanctifying gifts of the Holy Spirit because salvation is not possible without these gifts. The charismatic gifts, however, are received as God sees fit to bestow these gifts.

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body – Jews or Greeks, slaves or free – and all were made to drink of one Spirit. For the body does not consist of one member but of many. If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? But as it is, God arranged the organs in the body, each one of them, as he chose.. … Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.

1Cor 12:13-16 & 27-31

Paul is asking rhetorical questions. Are all apostles? Obviously not. Do all possess the charismatic gift of healing? No. Do all speak with tounges? Etc.

Paul is pointing out that Christians do not all receive the same charismatic gifts. He is also exhorting all Christians to earnestly desire the higher gifts. We do well when we recognize that we are all called to serve the church with different gifts of the Holy Spirit, and that we should pray to God for the higher gifts of the Holy Spirit.
 
this is exactly why I posted this same question on AAA, because I knew I wouldn’t be able to wade through all this, because you all keep getting off the topic. What happens to the theology of the sacrament of confirmation if we hold, as charistmatics do, that baptism of the Holy Spirit is necessary to fully release His gifts? If it is necessary and Jesus wants us to have it, why is it not part of the sacraments of baptism and confirmation?
 
The Gifts of the Holy Spirit are present in both Sacraments of initiation; Baptism and Confirmation. what oftn prevents us (me) from full utilization of the graces and gifts is knowing they are there, anf using them. I was not well informed when I was confirmed (40+) years ago. I was later to learn about the outpouring of the Holy Spirit as experienced through what has been called “Baptisim of the Holy Spirit”. I first had to learn about the availability of the gifts, and how to use them. It is as if someone gave you a gift, and it was put in the closet still wraped. it would’t be of much use, untill we took it from the shelf, opened it, read the instructions, and put it to use. The experience and use of the gifts of the Holy Spirit has been a Great blessing to my prayer life. Also, the gifts are for the UPBUILDING of the Church. not just private edification.
 
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asquared:
… What happens to the theology of the sacrament of confirmation if we hold, as charistmatics do, that baptism of the Holy Spirit is necessary to fully release His gifts? If it is necessary and Jesus wants us to have it, why is it not part of the sacraments of baptism and confirmation?
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May I suggest that perhaps a study of the Catholic Church’s theology of grace might help you understand what the charismatic Catholics are saying?

The sacraments bestow graces unique to the particular sacrament. God can also give us grace apart from the Sacraments. For example, we receive healing grace before we receive the sacramental grace of Baptism. If a man is in a state of mortal sin, he has lost the sanctifying graces that he received from the sacraments. Even though he no longer possesses sanctifying grace, he can still receive actual grace from God. Actual grace from God might be given to convict the man of his sinfulness and aid him in desiring to go to confession.

Note that the household of Cornelius was speaking in tongues before they were baptized. Charismatic graces can be given to us apart from the Sacraments, just as actual grace can be received apart from the Sacraments. Catholics need to understand that sanctifying grace and charismatic grace are not either/or, but both/and.
 
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