Can/Do Catholics Believe in the Baptism with the Holy Spirit? Important Discussion

  • Thread starter Thread starter Triple_H
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Good Morning Church

I have no doubt that gifts chosen for us by the Holy Spirit are given at Confirmation. For years, the Church has taught us about receiving the seven sanctifying gifts of the Holy Spirit mentioned in the Old Testament. We were taught about them and taught to expect them. Up until recent years, and then only in certain parishes, the Charismatic gifts mentioned in the New Testament were not mentioned or taught. We were not prepared to expect them. Why? I would like to know the answer to that since they were the gifts given to the CHRISTIAN church.

At any rate, I taught Confirmation classes for quite a few years in Southern California. Our kids had to be at least Juniors in High School to be confirmed. We did a lot of teaching directly from Scripture and included all the gifts mentioned in the New Testament. We also taught some of Jesus’ promises. For instance, “these things and greater things than I have done, will you do”, speaking of healings, etc.

These kids, when confirmed received Charismatic gifts.

Here is another thing I experienced.
I had an 82 yr old Italian mother in law who knew nothing whatsoever about the Charismatic Renewal. She came to stay a week with me and on Prayer meeting night, thought I was going to Rosary. She asked if she could go with me. She went, with her little bag containing her Rosary and a stack of prayer cards she prayed every day. During the songs of praise and scripture discussion she ignored what was going on, praying her Rosary and cards. Finally the leader asked if anyone wanted prayer. Grandma was suffering from a prolapsed urinary bladder. We were in the front row so up she went to the front of the line. The leader asked what her need was, and she bluntly told him it was none of his business and between her and the Blessed Mother and her son. He smiled, laid hands on her and began to pray and she instantly fell to the floor under the Power of the Holy Spirit. While down she started speaking in a language that sounded very much like Hebrew. When she was herself again, she was absolutely amazed. She swore she was carrying on a prayerful conversation with the Blessed Mother in Aramaic. My mother in law was very poorly educated in her faith and almost uneducated as far as school was concerned. She had no way of knowing a thing about Aramaic. She was told she would be healed of this condition, which she was.
This is, in a way a gift of tongues, but quite different than any mentioned in scripture.

I believe the Holy Spirit blows as He wills. I know that John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit while still in his mothers womb. I also know scripture mentions (as Matt has said) unbaptized folks receiving the Holy Spirit and gifts. We are told not to stifle the Holy Spirit (which means we can do just that).
We do not know all of the way the Holy Spirit works or blesses us. We just need to be open and let Him work his wonders in us.
 
40.png
robertaf:
I have no doubt that gifts chosen for us by the Holy Spirit are given at Confirmation. For years, the Church has taught us about receiving the seven sanctifying gifts of the Holy Spirit mentioned in the Old Testament. We were taught about them and taught to expect them. Up until recent years, and then only in certain parishes, the Charismatic gifts mentioned in the New Testament were not mentioned or taught. We were not prepared to expect them. Why?

… We just need to be open and let Him work his wonders in us.
Click to expand...
That brings up a good point, if we not disposed to receive grace from a Sacrament, we can’t expect the Sacraments to be efficacious.

Sacraments exist and work no matter what you believe, but you need faith to get anything out of them (CCC950). Two Latin phrases summarize this important point:
Ex opere operato: The sacrament works in general even if one of the participants does not believe or is unprepared

Ex opre operantis: The sacrament does not work for you in particular if you do not believe or are unprepared (CCC 1128).
WHAT IS A SACRAMENT?​
 
discussions on theology of grace and operation of the sacraments is excellent. beautiful testimony about grandma, God bless her. My specific question about Baptism of the Holy Spirit has to do with the ceremony done during Life in the Spirit Retreats where you go up, wash your hands in a bowl of water (or help someone else wash their hands), while singing and speaking in tongues is going on in the assembly. Why is any ritual or ceremony necessary? I can certainly understand why Life in the Spirit, and subsequent prayer group participation, could be powerful in moving the person to accept the action and gifts of the Holy Spirit, but I am suspicious of all quasi-rituals that are not part of the sacramental system. I can’t help feeling that if our Confirmation preparation programs were done right, the kids would go to the sacrament with that predisposition and benefit much more from their openness to Him.
 
40.png
Triple_H:
If indeed the sacrament of Confirmation is when we are Baptized with the Holy Spirit, then why don’t most Catholics receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit upon Confirmation? Why don’t most Catholics speak in tongues when they are confirmed? In every example in Acts of this empowerment of the Holy Spirit, the common evidence of it happening in all examples if the evidence of speaking in tongues. This is an important question.
Click to expand...
The short answer is that we walk by faith and not by sight.

You make a valid point of how all Catholics need to accept the legitimacy of what the Church has endorsed. The church has not, however made the Charismatic Renewal the norm or mandatory. It has not endorsed the sign of the Baptism of the Holy Spirt being evidenced always by speaking in tongues.

Finally, not all incidents in the New Testament show that tongues accompany conversion. If you define this “empowerment of the Holy Spirit” as being when tongues were spoken, then you are begging the question.

I have always agreed with those on this board of the Charismatic Renewal, even though it is not my cup of tea. But they are not the "have’s as opposed to us poor “have not’s”
 
Greetings Church

Greetings Asquared

Asquared, I have attended and put on many Life in the Spirit Seminars. Each one had a slightly different format. Sometimes we used books and sometimes we just designed our own style of format. The Confirmation classes we taught all went through a Life in the Spirit Seminar and each was slightly different. I have never seen one where water was poured and hands washed. Sounds interesting. I would love to see the entire format to see how the symbolism fit in.
Our pastor designed a couple of the ones we used with the high schoolers and the kids loved it. He planned the music and everything. One of the seminars incorporated Healing of Memories or Inner Healing prayers. It was awesome.

The point is that each seminar is pretty individual although all have the same basics. We always spent weeks in prayer prior to the seminar asking the Holy Spirit to guide us and to prepare everyone involved and participating.

He always did a perfect job.

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_14.gif
 
40.png
asquared:
My specific question about Baptism of the Holy Spirit has to do with the ceremony done during Life in the Spirit Retreats where you go up, wash your hands in a bowl of water (or help someone else wash their hands), while singing and speaking in tongues is going on in the assembly. Why is any ritual or ceremony necessary?
Click to expand...
Those rituals aren’t necessary. I have never seen these rituals performed, and I have seen many people receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
40.png
asquared:
I can’t help feeling that if our Confirmation preparation programs were done right, the kids would go to the sacrament with that predisposition and benefit much more from their openness to Him.
Click to expand...
I agree.

When Christianity was first spreading among the nations there were many adults being received into the Church. Extensive catechesis was the norm, and the three Sacraments of Initiation were given to the catechumens on the same day. When the Sacrament of Confirmation was received, it was expected that the by the newly baptised Christian would begin to manifest the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
 
Hi

I had one adult guy in our Confirmation Class. He asked if he could go through it with the kids. He had recently returned to the Church after many years away.
He went through our teachings and the Life in the Spirit Seminar.
When the Bishop Confirmed him he levitated over a foot off the floor. He was in some sort of extasy. The Bishop did his best to take this in stride but we noticed at the reception afterwards, he still was trembling a little and signs of perspiration still on his forhead.
This was a shocker, even for some of us veteran Charismatics.
 
40.png
robertaf:
Hi

I had one adult guy in our Confirmation Class. He asked if he could go through it with the kids. He had recently returned to the Church after many years away.
He went through our teachings and the Life in the Spirit Seminar.
When the Bishop Confirmed him he levitated over a foot off the floor. He was in some sort of extasy. The Bishop did his best to take this in stride but we noticed at the reception afterwards, he still was trembling a little and signs of perspiration still on his forhead.
This was a shocker, even for some of us veteran Charismatics.
Click to expand...
Yes ,I can believe it. I was baptized in the Holy Spirit and have never been the same, I bet you I could walk on water if it was frozen. 😃
 
40.png
robertaf:
When the Bishop Confirmed him he levitated over a foot off the floor. He was in some sort of extasy. The Bishop did his best to take this in stride but we noticed at the reception afterwards, he still was trembling a little and signs of perspiration still on his forhead.
This was a shocker, even for some of us veteran Charismatics.
Click to expand...
Wow. That must have been something to see. I have a friend who witnessed a Eucharistic Miracle (the host began to bleed at the consecration) and it totally changed his lukewarm faith in a passionate one. I wonder how many people who saw the man levitate also had growth in faith?

Thanks for sharing that story.
 
Good Morning Church

I do not believe God is frivolous with gifts, fruits and miracles. They are all for a reason.

Wouldn’t you think if the folks hearts were ready to receive what happened they would bloom and bear fruit? Seeds planted in fertile ground?
I am positive that those who were ready grew Spiritually.

That is the same even here on the internet. There is fertile ground and barren ground and a lot of ground just being prepared.

The Holy Spirit plants in many ways.
 
My understanding and experience of Baptism of the Holy Spirit is it is a super abundant filling of the Spirit, which already indwells us. It is an experience in which He fills us to the brim.

Someone asked people to share which of the 9 gifts they have. At different times I have had and used the gifts of knowledge, healing, discernment, teaching, and tongues. None of these gifts are things I can pull out and use on my own command. They were always God’s instruments in His timing for a specific situation.

By knowledge, I mean knowledge of something about someone (apart from any natural source) so that I may pray very specifically in their time of need. As an example, the Holy Spirit one day impressed upon me the knowledge that a friend of mine converted from Christianity to Mormonism. I later learned that this did actually occur around the time that I was given this knowledge. At the time, I was kind of new to the phenomenum and I dismissed it as a crazy thought. I should have been praying, but I didn’t think it was real. Hard lesson. The other gifts were a result of God’s prompting, as well, and not of my own initiative or natural abilities.

How did I get these gifts? I earnestly desired them. For months I prayed specifically for the gift of tongues because I yearned to communicate with God more directly. I was finding English words to be so inadequate to express my heart to Him. One day, a charismatic friend of mine prayed with me in her college dorm room to receive the gift of tongues. If I had been standing up, I would have fallen over. The power of the Spirit completely overwhelmed me. After that, I had the ability to pray in a heavenly language. I don’t know if I still have that gift or not. I haven’t felt the need or the prompting to use it in quite a while.
 
I have been wanting to learn more about Life in the Spirit Seminars, but as you say, they are done differently by different teams, in spite of the manual being much more specific about what should occur. I would like to explore the possiblity of including them as part of Confirmation or post-confirmation classes. However, if it is going to result in teenagers speaking in tongues I don’t know if I can handle it. They are rowdy enough already.
 
40.png
asquared:
I would like to explore the possiblity of including them as part of Confirmation or post-confirmation classes. However, if it is going to result in teenagers speaking in tongues I don’t know if I can handle it. They are rowdy enough already.
Click to expand...
Your confirmation class sounds like the church in Corinth! :rotfl:
 
40.png
asquared:
I have been wanting to learn more about Life in the Spirit Seminars, but as you say, they are done differently by different teams, in spite of the manual being much more specific about what should occur. I would like to explore the possiblity of including them as part of Confirmation or post-confirmation classes. However, if it is going to result in teenagers speaking in tongues I don’t know if I can handle it. They are rowdy enough already.
Click to expand...
A Squared, I’d be happy to put you in touch with our CCGD youth ministers, who have just completed a LITS class for our high school teens, a group of roughly 35-40. They have also just started a LITS class for the young single adults with about the same numbers. Email me privately for more info. 😃
 
40.png
petra:
My understanding and experience of Baptism of the Holy Spirit is it is a super abundant filling of the Spirit, which already indwells us. It is an experience in which He fills us to the brim.

Someone asked people to share which of the 9 gifts they have. At different times I have had and used the gifts of knowledge, healing, discernment, teaching, and tongues. None of these gifts are things I can pull out and use on my own command. They were always God’s instruments in His timing for a specific situation.

By knowledge, I mean knowledge of something about someone (apart from any natural source) so that I may pray very specifically in their time of need. As an example, the Holy Spirit one day impressed upon me the knowledge that a friend of mine converted from Christianity to Mormonism. I later learned that this did actually occur around the time that I was given this knowledge. At the time, I was kind of new to the phenomenum and I dismissed it as a crazy thought. I should have been praying, but I didn’t think it was real. Hard lesson. The other gifts were a result of God’s prompting, as well, and not of my own initiative or natural abilities.

How did I get these gifts? I earnestly desired them. For months I prayed specifically for the gift of tongues because I yearned to communicate with God more directly. I was finding English words to be so inadequate to express my heart to Him. One day, a charismatic friend of mine prayed with me in her college dorm room to receive the gift of tongues. If I had been standing up, I would have fallen over. The power of the Spirit completely overwhelmed me. After that, I had the ability to pray in a heavenly language. I don’t know if I still have that gift or not. I haven’t felt the need or the prompting to use it in quite a while.
Click to expand...
If you dont use it youll lose it. 😉
 
Do Catholics Believe in the Baptism with the Holy Spirit? Yes, because at PENTECOST the Holy Spirit come upon the Apostles !!

So, my brethren, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues …
1Cor. 14:39

Do not quench the Spirit, do not despise prophesying …
1Thes. 5:20

CREDO IN UNUM DEUM
from BRAZIL
 
Br. Rich SFO said:
“I notice that all of the verses from Acts that this article used to support the sacrament of Confirmation are used by charismatics to support the doctrine of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.”

There is as far as I’m aware no “Doctrine of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit”. Except of course the fact that a person who is Baptized receives the Holy Spirit at the moment of their Baptism. The Indwelling of the Holy Spirit at Bpatism is a Doctrine of the Catholic Church.

** To me the action of laying on of hands and calling down the Holy Spirit in the “Baptism of the Holy Spirit”. Tends to displace or substitute** the role of the Bishop in the Sacrament of Confirmation with a lay action.

IMO This confuses many people both in and outside the Church.
Click to expand...

I prefer to think: "It tends to follow-up and open the “PACKAGE” that God gave when the bishop laid hands on me…
or as St. Paul says ;…"I remind you to stir into flame the Gift God bestowed when my hands were laid on you."

Confusion remains where people “EXTINGUISH” The Spirit. (1 Thess.5;19, 20)

gusano
 
Br. Rich SFO said:
“I notice that all of the verses from Acts that this article used to support the sacrament of Confirmation are used by charismatics to support the doctrine of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.”

There is as far as I’m aware no “Doctrine of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit”. Except of course the fact that a person who is Baptized receives the Holy Spirit at the moment of their Baptism. The Indwelling of the Holy Spirit at Bpatism is a Doctrine of the Catholic Church. To me the action of laying on of hands and calling down the Holy Spirit in the “Baptism of the Holy Spirit”. Tends to displace or substitute the role of the Bishop in the Sacrament of Confirmation with a lay action. IMO This confuses many people both in and outside the Church.
Click to expand...

Before Confirmation I attended hours of catechism, the sacrament of Confirmation if I remember rightly, marks your soul and the holy spirit confers many graces to lead a pius Catholic life, also to uphold the Faith as an oath.

The baptism of the holy spirit is a Evengelical teaching and is not the same as the sacrament of Confirmation of the Catholic Church. It as a charasmatic experience is not part of Catholic teaching. I give as an example " slain by the spirit".

Fogny
 
Well I do believe in Baptism with the Holy Spirit. We receive the Holy Spirit at Baptism and again at Confirmation.

However, there are times when the Holy Spirit chooses to confer special graces upon people, such as the Grace of Consolation and the Grace of Jubilation. I have experienced both. I would have to say that the Grace of Jubilation is a Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

When Pentecostals and Oneness talk about Baptism in the Holy Spirit, they are expecting that someone who has received this gift will be able to talk and pray in tongues. However, this expectation is an error on their part. St. Paul responded to this belief by pointing out that the Holy Spirit confers special gifts and not every one receives each of the gifts. That is why some speak in tongues and others interpret the tongues etc. etc (paraphrased from Corinthians).

From the Catholic point of view we accept the Baptism in the Holy Spirit through the Sacraments and remain open to other moments of Grace.

MaggieOH
 
I think the post by Brother Rich needs posted again.
" Br. Rich SFO"I notice that all of the verses from Acts that this article used to support the sacrament of Confirmation are used by charismatics to support the doctrine of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit."

There is as far as I’m aware no “Doctrine of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit”. Except of course the fact that a person who is Baptized receives the Holy Spirit at the moment of their Baptism. The Indwelling of the Holy Spirit at Bpatism is a Doctrine of the Catholic Church. To me the action of laying on of hands and calling down the Holy Spirit in the “Baptism of the Holy Spirit”. Tends to displace or substitute the role of the Bishop in the Sacrament of Confirmation with a lay action. IMO This confuses many people both in and outside the Church.
Here is a man who has devoted his life to the Study of the Roman Catholic Church. I agree with his every word.
Lay people cannot be a substitute for a Bishop and administer the Sacrament of Confirmation; therefore a layperson cannot administer a sacrament. Since laypeople can’t administer a sacrament, any “praying over a person” is not sacramental. Ity wouls seem that then, a layperson cannot “call down” the Holy Spirit in a Baptism of the Holy Spirit. So that claim is false.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top