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ciero
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I doubt if anyone here would be advocating for the singing of Latin hymns at an Eastern Liturgy, so why would it be ok to sing Eastern hymns at a Latin Mass?
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ConstantineTG
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Ave Maria is part of our UGCC songbook
And I mean why not? Protestant songs are used, why not Eastern hymns which are more theologically correct and rich? Besides, many Eastern hymns are already in English.
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ciero
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Thats sad! :sad_yes:
Now I have no problem with that hymn in a Latin church…but why in a Byzantine one? And why does your church have a song book? When would it be used? I’m not familiar with this.
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ConstantineTG
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What is sad about Ave Maria?
I don’t get this detesting all things RC in an Eastern Church. We are one Catholic faith. I also don’t get why you seem to always push your own standard of what you think a Byzantine Church should be on us. You’re not even Ukrainian (Church)
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ciero
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There is nothing sad about the Ave Maria, the sad bit is that Latin hymns being used in a Byzantine church.What is sad about Ave Maria?
I don’t get this detesting all things RC in an Eastern Church. We are one Catholic faith. I also don’t get why you seem to always push your own standard of what you think a Byzantine Church should be on us. You’re not even Ukrainian (Church)
If we are going to be true to who we are as Eastern Christians we must be true to our traditions. We should NOT be mixing and matching whatever we like into our tradition.
I am not “pushing” my standard of what is a Byzantine church should be on anyone…I am “pushing” the line that Rome has been telling us for years, as well as liturgical experts such as Fr. Robert Taft SJ, and the Orthodox.
I believe that the “job” of Eastern Catholics is to be a witness to our Orthodox brethren that Orthodoxy CAN be lived within the Catholic communion. By incorporating “foreign” elements into the Byzantine Liturgy we are failing in that witness.
There is no place for Latin hymns in the Byzantine church…if you must have the Ave Maria go to a Latin church.
I may not currently worship in a Ukrainian parish, I did come into the Byzantine church through the Ukrainian church…so I am “officially” a Ukrainian Catholic.
I wonder if they sing the Ave Maria at St. Elias in Brampton?
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ConstantineTG
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Go to youtube, they sing “O come Emmanuel”There is nothing sad about the Ave Maria, the sad bit is that Latin hymns being used in a Byzantine church.
If we are going to be true to who we are as Eastern Christians we must be true to our traditions. We should NOT be mixing and matching whatever we like into our tradition.
I am not “pushing” my standard of what is a Byzantine church should be on anyone…I am “pushing” the line that Rome has been telling us for years, as well as liturgical experts such as Fr. Robert Taft SJ, and the Orthodox.
I believe that the “job” of Eastern Catholics is to be a witness to our Orthodox brethren that Orthodoxy CAN be lived within the Catholic communion. By incorporating “foreign” elements into the Byzantine Liturgy we are failing in that witness.
There is no place for Latin hymns in the Byzantine church…if you must have the Ave Maria go to a Latin church.
I may not currently worship in a Ukrainian parish, I did come into the Byzantine church through the Ukrainian church…so I am “officially” a Ukrainian Catholic.
I wonder if they sing the Ave Maria at St. Elias in Brampton?
Tradition is living. Not because something originated in the West it doesn’t mean it cannot be adopted in the East. Not because they didn’t do it in the past they can’t do it today and moving forward. Reclaiming traditions doesn’t mean they’ll be stuck in the past. The Church moves forward.
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wjp984
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My understanding is that in the Western Church, the mass exlcuded both the entrance and closing hymns. Therefore, it is at this point, a non traditional hymn could be used.
There are so many abuses that many of the abuses are seen no longer as abuses but routine practice, but I think there tecnically is a set of acceptable hymns or chants that are supposed to be used within the mass, and others should not be used.
In the Eastern Churches, the Divine Liturgy likewise has it’s chants and hymns that are part of the Divine Liturgy so it would be improper to use Western hymns to replace the hymns meant for the DL. However, although I could be wrong, I think similar standards apply where a Western hymn like “Ave Maria” can be sung before or after the Liturgy.
There are so many abuses that many of the abuses are seen no longer as abuses but routine practice, but I think there tecnically is a set of acceptable hymns or chants that are supposed to be used within the mass, and others should not be used.
In the Eastern Churches, the Divine Liturgy likewise has it’s chants and hymns that are part of the Divine Liturgy so it would be improper to use Western hymns to replace the hymns meant for the DL. However, although I could be wrong, I think similar standards apply where a Western hymn like “Ave Maria” can be sung before or after the Liturgy.
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5Loaves
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I’ve just returned from the Pan-Orthodox Society for the Advancement of Liturgical Music Liturgical Singing Seminar. Interesting to me, as one of the 3 Catholics there, all from my parish, Rdr. Nicolas Craig Custer included in his selections, along with an Ethiopian setting for the Kyrie, the Tempore Paschali, KYRIE Lux et origo. The only adaptation he made was that we only sing the Kýrie, eléison in the East, no Christe, eléison.
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ConstantineTG
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We do sing it after. Like in the RC, there is an option for hymns at the beginning, at the end, and during Communion.
The “Divine Liturgy, An Anthology for Worship” has a wealth of hymns at the back which and they are even categorized by season or specific day.
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Aramis
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Some could, provided they don’t specifically teach/mention/aliterate those heresies in their texts.
Amazing Grace advocates the OSAS heresy…
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ciero
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Spoken like someone who has been going to an Eastern church for about 10 minutes and is missing his Western traditions, so lets incorporate them here in the East…been there done that…BAD NEWS!
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ConstantineTG
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First, thanks for derailing my thread
Second, everything Latin they do, they have done for so long even before I got here. Actually, they’ve been doing it long before I was born. Again, you know the eprachy I belong to, the website is there, the Bishop’s email is there. If you have a complaint, I suggest you email him directly. Complaining to a guy who’s been an Eastern Catholic for 10 minutes is not going to change anything, even if I wanted to. Actually, what have you actually done to make the changes you are pushing for to delatinize Eastern Churches? Complaining on forums doesn’t do much you know. Have you done any real world work on it? Time to put your money where your mouth is.
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ciero
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Just because what is being done has been done for so long does NOT make it right Constantine…my point is that WE ALL as Eastern catholics have a job to do…that job is to live as AUTHENTIC Eastern Christians. WE should ALL be working to remove Latinizations/Protestantizations from our churches.
Your bishop knows my feelings well…I have discussed with him many times my concerns. His feeling is we need to proceed slowly. That is his call, and I totally respect it. What bugs me is when I see new folks coming into the Eastern churches with the attitude you expressed it raises my hackles. It makes the work we ALL have to do just that much harder.
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ConstantineTG
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But you are right, I am an Eastern Catholic for all of 10 minutes. Who am I to tell lifelong Ukrainian Catholics what they should or shouldn’t be doing in their parishes?
My attitude is to embrace what they offer right now. Again, should a new guy be dictating things? Besides, I see why they do things the way they do. Separate traditions doesn’t mean exclusive. There is room for a little bit of Western in the East, and a little bit of Eastern in the West. Especially in a Church who needs to exert her Catholic identity over a government and Orthodox Church that wants to swallow her whole.
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Cecilianus
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The Ave Maria doesn’t belong in Ukrainian churches. Why would you sing in Latin in a Greek Catholic church? If you want to sing that prayer - as I might on a frequent basis - sing the Bohoroditse Devo.
I would have some issues with Eastern hymns being sung at Mass, because I don’t want the West to lose their Western identity any more than I want us to lose ours. If it ends up turning the Roman Rite even more into a bastardized hybrid that is neither Eastern nor Western and has the integrity of neither Rite, then it shouldn’t be done.
On the other hand, while I think a lot of Eastern customs that have been misappropriated to the West and butchered up in the process have done a lot of harm - reception of Communion standing, audible Consecration, re-insertion of litanies in the vague vicinity of the Creed, etc. - I am not sure that the adoption of some Eastern hymns would necessarily have this harmful effect. I’ve heard the hymn “Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silent” (from the Liturgy of St. James) sung many times in Roman Catholic Masses, and every time it was the most beautiful part of the Mass. As long as they make it fit in organically with the rest of the Mass - as they did with “Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silent” - it shouldn’t be a problem.
And as someone else said, everything else seems to be permitted, so why not let a little bit of (o)rthodoxy into the hymns?
I do not know from experience but I believe that Cardinal Schonborn’s order of “Little Sisters of the Lamb” use Eastern hymns in their Mass, and deliberately try to include Eastern customs in order to “breathe with both lungs” as one Sister told me. I haven’t been to their convent to see what their Mass looks like so I don’t make any judgment about it; they do come to our Divine Liturgy on occasion and seem to have a very healthy appreciation for the Byzantine Rite.
I would have some issues with Eastern hymns being sung at Mass, because I don’t want the West to lose their Western identity any more than I want us to lose ours. If it ends up turning the Roman Rite even more into a bastardized hybrid that is neither Eastern nor Western and has the integrity of neither Rite, then it shouldn’t be done.
On the other hand, while I think a lot of Eastern customs that have been misappropriated to the West and butchered up in the process have done a lot of harm - reception of Communion standing, audible Consecration, re-insertion of litanies in the vague vicinity of the Creed, etc. - I am not sure that the adoption of some Eastern hymns would necessarily have this harmful effect. I’ve heard the hymn “Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silent” (from the Liturgy of St. James) sung many times in Roman Catholic Masses, and every time it was the most beautiful part of the Mass. As long as they make it fit in organically with the rest of the Mass - as they did with “Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silent” - it shouldn’t be a problem.
And as someone else said, everything else seems to be permitted, so why not let a little bit of (o)rthodoxy into the hymns?
I do not know from experience but I believe that Cardinal Schonborn’s order of “Little Sisters of the Lamb” use Eastern hymns in their Mass, and deliberately try to include Eastern customs in order to “breathe with both lungs” as one Sister told me. I haven’t been to their convent to see what their Mass looks like so I don’t make any judgment about it; they do come to our Divine Liturgy on occasion and seem to have a very healthy appreciation for the Byzantine Rite.
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ciero
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amen, amen, amen!
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ConstantineTG
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We sing it in English, as with the rest of the Divine Liturgy.
How will hymns change the Liturgy and tradition?
Of course, appropriate hymns for appropriate parts of the Mass. We all agree, as it is many RC parishes are doing much worse with Protestant hymns.
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