Can even a "true" prophet have false revelations?

[majick275]

(Continued from the previous post…)

Show me which members of the first presidency prior to BY taking over didn’t receive revelation that was pronounced by JS to be wrong.

The early leaders of the Church (those of them that didn’t apostatize, like Brigham Young) were in tune with the Spirit of the Lord, and were constantly in recewipt of divine grace and revelation in the discharge of duties. They are mostly not mentioned in Church history (although some have been mentioned) it was not required to be mentioned. But note the following quote from the D&C, addressed to Oliver Cowdery:

And now, behold, I say unto you that you shall go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them; and inasmuch as they receive thy teachings thou shalt cause my church to be established among them; and thou shalt have revelations, but write them not by way of commandment. (D&C 28:8.)
In other words, he was given revelation for the discharge of his duties as a missionary among the Lamanaites; but they were not intended to be given as general directions for the whole Church.

He is always speaking “for God”. See above. Listen to the last general conference of the Church. Everything that was said there, not just by the Prophet, was inspired by the Holy Ghost, and was “speaking for God”.

It depends on what you mean by “revelation”. If you mean “new doctrine”, then nobody has the right to introduce new doctrine into the Church just willy-nilly. Even the President of the Church cannot do it without following a set procedure, as was done with the canonization of the “Vision of the Redemption of the Dead,” received by Joseph F. Smith (D&C 138), or the Official declarations 1 and 2 (D&C pp 291, 293), for example. But if you mean counsel and exhortation inspired by the Holy Spirit, then all of it is “revelation,” even though their counsels may on rare occasions contain some errors of doctrine because men are fallible, and occasionally err in doctrine.

Of course we must question them. What a thing to say. It shows that you have no understanding of the LDS theological position. I never accept anything with my eyes closed; neither does the Church expect me to do so. But you don’t understand how the Holy Spirit works. If you have the Holy Ghost, you don’t need to actively “question” anything; you just know whether something is inspired by the Holy Ghost or not. When I attend the General Conference of the Church, I just know as I listen to them whether they are inspired by God or not. I don’t need to actively “question” anything.

amgid

So the prophet says what he wants and if the members believe it then the holy ghost did his job and all is well, if the members didn’t believe it then he did not speak the word of God OR the members didn’t have the spirit OR they are apostate. But when the new prophet syas the old one was wrong then… You believe this is how God works?

The leaders of the church are speaking for God, unless they turned out to be apostate. The prophet will tell us who was apostate so we know who not to believe…until another prophet comes and says that one was wrong…but those he claimed were apostate still are…but…ooooooh the smoke coming out of my ears. I can’t follow this type of circular reasoning.

 

[sara888]

Majick,

If you want to see circular reasoning, try a debate with the OSAS sect, its beyond bizzare, !

I mean no offense, it’s just that their doctrines logic and reasoning not only lack biblical sense, its lacks any common sense.

At least they profess the Lord Jesus Christ, however they do misinterpret and distort scripture to fit or suit a way of life they choose to live rather than what God ask’s of us Christians to follow.

Sara

 

[Casen]

Post #22 is circular logic if I’ve ever seen it…

“My church must be the true one because it makes sense to me. Your church doesn’t make sense to me therefore it must be false.”

 

[majick275]

Casen,
Here is how I see your basic viewpoint here:

Spiritual witness (which could take whatever form is appropriate for the individual concerned) is essential to a person becoming/staying a latter day saint.

With this spritual witness, faith buoys one through any doctrinal questions, issues, etc. (the LDS belief being that there are really only a few key elements essential to salvation anyway and there is no need to speculate on the “mysteries”)

Without this spiritual witness one could not expect to understand LDS doctrine. With it one “knows” that it must make sense and thus can take as long as necessary to find the necessary understanding. (provided that in the meantime they act as if it were true and sincerely believe that its true)

So in the end it comes down to faith and you either believe it or you do not. Those that believe will not be swayed by “wordly” wisdom, evidence, reasoning, etc. and those that do not believe should not be expected to understand it as they do not have the “spiritual” perspective required.

Does that sound accurate to you?

 

[sara888]

**Casen,

Mormon Theology was not taught by Apostles to Christ’s Church .

12 Mormon Doctrines not taught by Christ’s ealry Chruch nor anyone else before Joseph Smith invented them in the 1830’s

How did these ideas get into the Holy Bible if the Apostles did not teach them? Was Joseph Smith the first person in the history of the world to teach these ideas?**

Sara

 

[BJ_Colbert]

Casen,

Mormon Theology was not taught by Apostles to Christ’s Church .

**12 Mormon Doctrines not taught by Christ’s ealry Chruch nor anyone else before Joseph Smith invented them in the 1830’s **

How did these ideas get into the Holy Bible if the Apostles did not teach them? Was Joseph Smith the first person in the history of the world to teach these ideas?

Sara

No Sara, Jesus Christ was the first person to teach these ideas.
Also, polygamy was practiced in the Biblical times, many different times over the centuries and then when God thought it no longer necessary He took away the practice.
God has his reasons for changing things and we do not have to know the reasons. I personally think that polygamy at different times in history as in Abraham’ s time, helped to populate the Christian world a lttle faster than would be possible with only one wife. Just my humble, and probably very stupid opinion. Not church doctrine at all, so don’t mistake personal opinion for LDS doctrine.
We each have our own brains and sometimes we think without benefit of God’s guidance.
Even Prophets have their own brains and do not always speak for God. When they are speaking for God, they will always tell us this is revelation. If not it is purely their own thoughts and ideas.
BJ
PS what are the 12 Mormon doctrines invented by Joseph Smith? I have never heard of these 12 doctrines. Can you please explain what they are? Thanks

 

[sara888]

**The Bible says that to determine truth you must examine the scriptures. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says that

“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work”

When did God come down and change his word.?

Also from LDS teachings explain the birth of Christ.?

There is only one God
Mormonism teaches there are many gods.

Trinity is one God, Mormons teach 3 seperate Gods, Joseph Smith (Jouranl of Discourses)

If the Book of Mormon is the “most correct book of any on earth” , then why does it not contain essential Mormon doctrines such as…

Church organization
Plurality of Gods
Plurality of wives doctrine
Word of Wisdom
God is an exalted man
Celestial marriage , Men may become Gods
Three degrees of glory
Baptism for the dead
Eternal progression
The Aaronic Priesthood
Melchizedek Priesthood
**
Sara

 

[sara888]

**Book of Mormorm
Polygamy condemned
Jacob 1:15; 2:23,24,27,31;3:5; Mosiah 11:2,4; Ether 10:5,7

Mormon Doctrine
Polygamy was taught and practiced.
Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses Vol 3 pg 266

Book of Mormorn
God is unchanging

Mormon Doctrine
God is increasing in knowledge.
Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 120.**

Sara

 

[Katzpur]

sara888:

When did God come down and change his word?

He didn’t.

Also from LDS teachings explain the birth of Christ?

Jesus Christ was born to the Virgin Mary in Bethlehem.

There is only one God.
Mormonism teaches there are many gods.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6 states, “For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”

To us there is but one God.

Trinity is one God, Mormons teach 3 seperate Gods, Joseph Smith (Journal of Discourses)

“So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.” (The Athanasian Creed)

“And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end.” (The Book of Mormon)

If the Book of Mormon is the “most correct book of any on earth” , then why does it not contain essential Mormon doctrines such as…

Church organization
Plurality of Gods
Plurality of wives doctrine
Word of Wisdom
God is an exalted man
Celestial marriage , Men may become Gods
Three degrees of glory
Baptism for the dead
Eternal progression
The Aaronic Priesthood
Melchizedek Priesthood

Joseph Smith called the Book of Mormon the “most correct” book for the simple reason that it underwent only one translation from the original to English. Nowhere does it claim to be a complete source of LDS doctrine. Besides, it’s purpose is to testify of Jesus Christ. It does so quite adequately.

May I ask you a question now? Why are you so angry?

 

[majick275]

Katzpur:

He didn’t.

Except in the LDS scriptures where doctrine changes back and forth.

Jesus Christ was born to the Virgin Mary in Bethlehem.

I think what was being referred to whas the “how” as described by Orson Pratt and Brigham young

1 Corinthians 8:5-6 states, “For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”

To us there is but one God.

You just mentioned two (what about the Holy Spirit?) this is deceptive too because while there might be “one God to us” in LDS doctrine there are infinite Gods of infinite worlds.

“So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.” (The Athanasian Creed)

“And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end.” (The Book of Mormon)

yes the BoM espouses a number of seemingly orthodox doctrines that are then “overturned” by the D&C, PoGP, modern prophets,etc.

Joseph Smith called the Book of Mormon the “most correct” book for the simple reason that it underwent only one translation from the original to English. Nowhere does it claim to be a complete source of LDS doctrine. Besides, it’s purpose is to testify of Jesus Christ. It does so quite adequately.

Really? The BoM itself says the abridgement was made from the original language into reformed egyptian, then translatd into English, THEN revised numerous times to correct JS errors. It is said to contain a “fullness of the Gospel”. Only recently was it retitled as a testament of Jesus Christ.

from the title page of the current version of the BoM:

Which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever— And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST

Doesn’t even claim that it’s first priority is testifying of Christ. In fact it would appear that defining doctrine is actually a higher priority for it.

May I ask you a question now? Why are you so angry?

not so much angry as just a little tired of the extensive deceptions we have been seeing practiced here lately.

 

[amgid]

majick275:

So the prophet says what he wants and if the members believe it then the holy ghost did his job and all is well, if the members didn’t believe it then he did not speak the word of God OR the members didn’t have the spirit OR they are apostate. But when the new prophet syas the old one was wrong then… You believe this is how God works?

No! What it means is that the Catholic Church is apostate because the early Christian church apostatized as it is prophesied in the Bible that it should, and therefore it is no longer lead by revelation from God, by true prophets and Apostles, as God’s true church should be. Therefore God has now restored His true church on earth by prophecy, by revelation, and by angelic ministration, which is now led by true prophets and Apostles, who are able to lead and direct it by revelation, as God’s true church in ancient times and throughout history has always been.

The leaders of the church are speaking for God, unless they turned out to be apostate. The prophet will tell us who was apostate so we know who not to believe…until another prophet comes and says that one was wrong…but those he claimed were apostate still are…but…ooooooh the smoke coming out of my ears. I can’t follow this type of circular reasoning.

What a load of gobbledygook! I hope you can make sense of that. I can’t!

amgid

 

[majick275]

amgid:

No! What it means is that the Catholic Church is apostate because the early Christian church apostatized as it is prophesied in the Bible that it should, and therefore it is no longer lead by revelation from God, by true prophets and Apostles, as God’s true church should be. Therefore God has now restored His true church on earth by prophecy, by revelation, and by angelic ministration, which is now led by true prophets and Apostles, who are able to lead and direct it by revelation, as God’s true church in ancient times and throughout history has always been.

and the result? a “prophet” who doesn’t know what his church teaches or emphasizes.

What a load of gobbledygook! I hope you can make sense of that. I can’t!

Yes I’m sure that spiritual things are beyond the ken of carnal man.

amgid

 

[sara888]

****Katzpur saidJesus Christ was born to the Virgin Mary in Bethlehem.

How was he concieved? By the Power of the Holy Spirit.??

Please describe what Mormons/LDS believe how Jesus was concieved.

I can copy and paste Joseph Smith’s bizzare vision

But I rather hear what you profess, was Jesus Christ concieved by the power of the Holy Spirit.??**

Sara
BTW I am not angry , I am just in shock and awe when I debate Mormons, Scientology, Baptist. I have no problem with the other sects of religions.**

 

[sara888]

**Also, I like to know who you feel Adam was in the bible and what role he played.?

The Archangel St. Michael, what does he mean to you and what role did he play in the bible .??

THanks Sara**

 

[majick275]

amgid:

No! What it means is that the Catholic Church is apostate because the early Christian church apostatized as it is prophesied in the Bible that it should, and therefore it is no longer lead by revelation from God, by true prophets and Apostles, as God’s true church should be.

I don’t see how you got anything about the Catholic church out of our discussion on the LDS prophet speaking in general conference.

amgid:

Therefore God has now restored His true church on earth by prophecy, by revelation, and by angelic ministration, which is now led by true prophets and Apostles, who are able to lead and direct it by revelation, as God’s true church in ancient times and throughout history has always been

amgid

true prophets and apostles? what about the ones that left the LDS church? or Brigham Young…was he a true prophet? you don’t seem to be following his teachings. What about John Taylor…do you follow his teachings? you’ve already proclaimed Gordon Hinckley’s doctrinal errors. Do you practice all the commandments revealed by Joseph Smith? as far as historyis concerned, can you tell me about the apostles that led the church in the time of abraham? Moses? Lehi? the pre-existence?

 

[Katzpur]

majick275:

not so much angry as just a little tired of the extensive deceptions we have been seeing practiced here lately.

Please tell me where it appears that I have attempted to deceive and I will be glad to clarify, explain, apologize, etc.

 

[Katzpur]

sara888:

Also, I like to know who you feel Adam was in the bible and what role he played.?

I believe that Adam was the first man God placed on the earth.

The Archangel St. Michael, what does he mean to you and what role did he play in the bible .??

I believe that Michael was the name Adam was known by in the pre-existence. (I realize that you don’t believe in the pre-existence.)

 

[Katzpur]

majick275:

not so much angry as just a little tired of the extensive deceptions we have been seeing practiced here lately.

Majick,

It would be nice of you to go back into your post #30 and revise it. You have attributed the entire conversation to me, which is not only misleading but quite unfair. In other words, your quotes need to be moved to accurately represent who said what.

 

[majick275]

Katzpur:

Please tell me where it appears that I have attempted to deceive and I will be glad to clarify, explain, apologize, etc.

wasn’t just you…once again you should have read the posts before jumping in.

 

[majick275]

Katzpur:

Majick,

It would be nice of you to go back into your post #30 and revise it. You have attributed the entire conversation to me, which is not only misleading but quite unfair. In other words, your quotes need to be moved to accurately represent who said what.

I think you are guilty of deception as well regarding the doctrine of the LDS church. I have noted the examples. I stand by my previous post.