Can every instrument be made suitable for use in the Mass?

[VociMike]

The current discussion my be limited to American - European culture, but then the document may or may not have an application here. Surely there is an indication that some instruments are not suitable for Mass, but when we add the cultural element, all that can be implied with reasonable certainty is that some instruments are inappropriate in at least some cultrues.

Personally, I do not think I would even exclude electric guitars. The fact is that they can emulate accoustic and classical sounds fairly well. I would find that distortion boxes and other heavy metal embellishments are inappropriate, in this country and at this time.

I think America is somewhat unique in that we have a large variation of culture. Perhaps the best application of the Vatican’s instructions are done on a parish by parish basis, and in some cases, Mass by Mass.

OK, if I grant everything you say, I still don’t understand how each parish and each Mass will decide what instruments are suitable or not suitable. What are the criteria to be used? Too loud or soft? Funny-sounding? Funny-looking? How do we determine, thinking with the mind of the Church, what instruments can be “made sacred” and what instruments cannot?

 

[benedictgal]

Now, the “bar music” comment that I included in my post was not mine. That came straight from Cardinal Arinze.

Now, as far as Mariachi music is concerned, this particular genre is better suited for fiestas than it is for the Mass. The trumpets blare loudly and many of the pieces don’t have the solemnity, much less the sobriety, that is required for the Mass.

The same holds true for the music for the Life-Teen Masses. I’m not sure if it was Benedict, Arinze or another liturgical authority who said that this type of music was reminiscent of the kind of genre the ancient Greeks performed to celebrate the god Dionysius (the god of wine and debauchery). Our contemporary choir “performs” pieces from OCP’s Spirit and Song. The drums and electric guitar are in sharp contrast to the dignity and the solemnity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. In fact, it is quite unsettling. There have been times when I would much rather have Simon Le Bon (from Duran Duran) sing at my parish (along with his bandmates) than the choir because even Duran Duran’s music is a little more sedate than what we have.

The organ is one of the few instruments specifically mentioned in the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy and it was reaffirmed by both Cardinal Arinze and then-Cardinal Ratzinger. In fact, when he was in Bavaria last year, Pope Benedict blessed an new organ for one of the cathedrals and he emphasized the need for bringing the sacred back into music.

Having heard and read Benedict’s words, I hate to disagree with some of you, but the St. Louis Jesuits were probably the ones who began the downward spiral that we are now living with today. On the surface, it’s “feel good music”, but, it just seems shallow, especially when you compare the lyrics to the ancient hymns such as Attende Domine (Have Mercy on Us, O Lord) and even later hymns such as O Sacred Head Surrounded, Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence and Alleluia Sing to Jesus. In fact, the St. Louis Jesuits remind me of Peter, Paul and Mary, Simon & Garfunkel, and the Mamas and the Papas (and, I’m not even old enough to have heard them the first time around). They’re good for easy listening, but they add nothing to the Mass.

What I think we should remember is that during the Mass, we are not “celebrating ourselves.” The early Church regarded teh Mass as something noble, sacred and wholly other. The USCCB conducted a poll and they found that only 10% of today’s “liturgical” music even refers to God as “Father”, while just over 10% of the songs had anything to do with praise. The rest talked about individual needs and Church needs. A lot of the songs were also lacking in basic Catholic theology. Certainly, 90% of Spirit and Song would fall into that category.

Pope Benedict has said, on many occasions, that the liturgy is not something that we “cobble up for ourselves.” It is not some creative experimentation. Rather, it is a gift.

When we start introducing musical instruments and songs that are more for novelty and “warm and fuzzy feelings”, then we have made the liturgy more about ourselves than about the Holy Sacrifice.

 

[Digitonomy]

Adapting theremin music to the Mass would be an interesting challenge.

 

[drafdog]

Mariachi, I am told, is a genre based on wedding music. Granted it is unabashedly festive, but a wedding Mass ought to be festive. But this thread is about musical instruments, not musical genres or styles. Let’s keep with the thread and not wander about into side issues.

Matthew

 

[Sarabande]

I’m curious what people here think about this. We have documents from the Vatican and from the U.S. Bishops saying that only those instruments that are suitable or can be made suitable should be used at Mass. To me that implies that some instruments cannot be made suitable, or else what is the purpose of even placing such restrictions in the documents?

Has the Church given reasons as to why she has been vague as to what instruments would be considered “suitable”? I think part of the problem lies in the vague wording. It has made it open to be interpreted any way a person desires especially for newer instruments and more “modern” ways of playing those instruments. I do agree that it does imply that some instruments would not be considered suitable, but is that just my own interpretation or is that the Church’s stance on this subject?

Or perhaps it is he way a person performs the instrument or the voice? Can a saxaphone, for instance, really be played with reverence for a mass? I know it was originally used for orchestras, but it just didn’t work out well for classical works as it didn’t create the right sound to evoke the correct color or feeling, so it slowly evolved into what it is now more known for. Could that be the same in terms instruments used for liturgical sacred music? I’m not talking about religious music that can be used outside of the mass, but for within the mass.

Gosh, it would just be so much easier if time was spent in being more concrete regarding the instrumentation and music for each culture. There would even be a discussion about this if there were. BUT, I can see where having something like that could possibly stymie the spiritual creativity of present-day composers.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

Adapting theremin music to the Mass would be an interesting challenge.

Before my conversion, an Evangelical Methodist church I frequently attended had three regular instrumentalists: an organist, a pianist (both quite talented), and an elderly lady who played the musical saw. It sounded very much like a theremin, but nobody had the courage to tell her not to play it.

 

[pm1853]

Or perhaps it is he way a person performs the instrument or the voice? Can a saxaphone, for instance, really be played with reverence for a mass? I know it was originally used for orchestras, but it just didn’t work out well for classical works as it didn’t create the right sound to evoke the correct color or feeling, so it slowly evolved into what it is now more known for. Could that be the same in terms instruments used for liturgical sacred music? I’m not talking about religious music that can be used outside of the mass, but for within the mass.

Yes, it has and can. A properly trained CLASSICAL saxO

 

[Sarabande]

Yes, it has and can. A properly trained CLASSICAL saxOphone quartet is perhaps more suitable than say, a string quartet (if we’re focusing on chamber music) because it sounds so much like an organ. Saxophone quartets, more than string quartets, more than woodwind quintets, more even than brass quintets, will fill up a church with their unifrom, pure, and almost vocal sonority. If the electricity is down, and I happen to have a saxophone quartet available, they would be used in a heart beat and would make for a rather suitable replacement for the organ.

Ooooo… very interesting. I’ve never heard a saxophone quartet. I would be very interested to hear that.

 

[Guitar]

Ooooo… very interesting. I’ve never heard a saxophone quartet. I would be very interested to hear that.

Would you believe that Debussy transcriptions are very popular with classical sax quartets? Not everyone’s cup of tea but it works rather well. There are a few professional classical quartets around (with predictably clicheed names … such as the all-female outift calling itself The Fairer Sax … ).

There are classically trained sax players about today - I have one in my parish, a very talented 20-year old - who have never played a bent/blue/funky/jazz note in their entire musical careers. They aren’t in the majority among sax players, and they may deprive themselves of potential income by sticking to classical-only, but they are most certainly out there.

Edit: nowt to do wi’ church music but Michael Nyman (The Piano, The Cook, The Thief etc, The Draughstman’s Contract) often uses sax quartets in his soundtracks, though he makes use of their potential for punchy attack rather than for smooth quartet work.)

 

[Sarabande]

Would you believe that Debussy transcriptions are very popular with classical sax quartets?

NO WAY?!? Get out! I would NEVER believe that. French impressionist music and sax? Now I really have to hear this. Then again, the sax was originally for classical works and actually used in alot French orchestral music. Makes sense especially since Sax lived in Paris at the time he introduced the instrument. I really don’t know much about the saxaphone and know its sound and timblre mainly for blues and jazz, so it would be interesting to hear them in the form they were originally intended.

… There are a few professional classical quartets around (with predictably clicheed names … such as the all-female outift calling itself The Fairer Sax … ).

Yeah, a little bit corny. But if they’re good musicians, that’s what matters. And, hey, I think we all have a bit of corniness in all of us.

Edit: nowt to do wi’ church music but Michael Nyman (The Piano, The Cook, The Thief etc, The Draughstman’s Contract) often uses sax quartets in his soundtracks, though he makes use of their potential for punchy attack rather than for smooth quartet work.)

I’ll look him up. Thanks!

 

[drafdog]

Since all musical instruments are “secular” insofar as they were designed for general use, the Church’s attitude that secular instruments are inappropriate for liturgical use is absurd. I wouldn’t even ban musical styles from liturgical use since the use sanctifies it. After all a chalice is just a cup made of a durable material… until it is blessed for and by use in the liturgy.

Matthew

 

[wjj2001]

Sarabande;2879798:

A properly trained CLASSICAL saxO

phone quartet is perhaps more suitable than say, a string quartet (if we’re focusing on chamber music) because it sounds so much like an organ.

Why the comparison to an organ? Organs are rather modern inventions, first used in church around the 600’s. What did they use before that? I don’t recall, but the Bible does mention strings and cymbals, CLASHING cymbals, and jubilant voices.

I like them all - Gregorian chant, “traditional” organ, contemporary Christian, provided the lyrics are appropriate and they are led in a way that the congregation can sing. I’d rather have bongo drums lead something we can all sing than an organ with a cantor singing beautifully but in a way that the untrained congregation cannot follow.

 

[Sarabande]

pm1853;2889297:

Why the comparison to an organ? Organs are rather modern inventions, first used in church around the 600’s. What did they use before that? I don’t recall, but the Bible does mention strings and cymbals, CLASHING cymbals, and jubilant voices.

I like them all - Gregorian chant, “traditional” organ, contemporary Christian, provided the lyrics are appropriate and they are led in a way that the congregation can sing. I’d rather have bongo drums lead something we can all sing than an organ with a cantor singing beautifully but in a way that the untrained congregation cannot follow.

I didn’t say what you quoted. Somehow it was attributed to me. I replied to it, but actually didn’t say it. I think the actual author of that quote was referring to my question about the saxophone, and he/she was saying how a sax quartet can sound very close to an organ. We were just having a pleasant discourse. Nothing underlying. In that discourse we weren’t saying the organ was the only instrument that should be played at mass - just discussing how it could be used as affectively as an organ when done well.

Although give me an organist who is a musician and a well-trained cantor any day over bongo drums. I get no spiritual inspiration out of bongos, but that’s just me. I literally do become ill when I hear things like that at mass. It’s something I’ve had to work on (to not have to run to bathroom and almost vomit), but fortunately most of the masses I attend don’t have that.

BUT if the organist and cantor are horrible (which I believe is worse than having decently played bongos), I’d rather have no music at all or if the bongo drums are the best the church can offer and they can do it reverently, I would do my best to accept it and pray that I won’t get sick or laugh. (Whenever I hear or say the word “bongos” it always reminds me of these kids I knew growing up who would refer to the female part of anatomy as bongos. I can’t take that instrument seriously anymore.)

 

[bengal_fan]

The kind of music employed by OCP in its Spirit and Song hymnal flies in the face of dignity because it is meant to be “performed” with drums, electric guitars and keyboards. This kind of music does not add to the sublime mysteries we are entering and, unfortunately, tends to be more for entertainment. It its also deeply rooted in Protestant spirituality.
.

didn’t David play the lyre (a stringed instrument)? don’t the psalms tell us to praise him with the cymbals and drums? i agree that the songs shouldn’t be “performed” (but we do only put the good organ players and singers up front to lead so there is always a sense of performance no matter what form of music is used) but to say that music with guitars and drums is rooted in protestantism is wrong. it’s rooted in judaism (huh, didn’t we grow out of that? huh, shouldn’t we use guitars, harps, and drums then? huh.)

 

[Sarabande]

I didn’t say what you quoted. Somehow it was attributed to me. I replied to it, but actually didn’t say it…

Weird, now the person I quoted in my previous post was attributed to someone else. I think it was the person who actually said the quote which was attributed to me. Something went haywire. hahahaha

 

[Guitar]

pm1853;2889297:

Why the comparison to an organ? Organs are rather modern inventions, first used in church around the 600’s. What did they use before that? I don’t recall, but the Bible does mention strings and cymbals, CLASHING cymbals, and jubilant voices.

From memory, having written a mini-thesis on it for a church music Certificate a few years back, the first unambiguous written record of an organ being used in the liturgy (as opposed to merely being physically present somewhere in the church building along with almanac clocks and other “town hall” sorts of things) is not until the 12th century, in France. There was vehement opposition to the organ in early Christian circles, if what I read is correct, due to its association with the Romans. I suppose a modern day equivalent would be the way many people have a painful association between some of Wagner’s music and Nazi rallies. There is of course a lot of water under the bridge now and the organ has changed enormously since Roman times, however somewhere at some stage this secular instrument wormed its way into the liturgy and (at least at the time I wrote my piece) how it actually happened is not at all clear.

 

[VociMike]

didn’t David play the lyre (a stringed instrument)? don’t the psalms tell us to praise him with the cymbals and drums? i agree that the songs shouldn’t be “performed” (but we do only put the good organ players and singers up front to lead so there is always a sense of performance no matter what form of music is used) but to say that music with guitars and drums is rooted in protestantism is wrong. it’s rooted in judaism (huh, didn’t we grow out of that? huh, shouldn’t we use guitars, harps, and drums then? huh.)

But were they used in the Jewish worship service? That’s a question I’ve never gotten a good answer to.

And then there’s always the question, what is our final authority in such a matter, some OT verses or the Church? If an OT psalm seems to say one thing about instruments, and the Church clearly says another thing, which will you obey?

 

[tcraig]

I attended a mass in September (not my own parish) where a drum set (yes, just like you’d see at a rock or jazz concert) was used.

I couldn’t receive communion, not because I was angry but because it was just so ridiculous that I was struggling not to burst out laughing. Thump thump ching! Thumpa thumpa ching! Druuuummmm roooollllll ching! Boom-boom boom-boom boom-boom (going down in octive) ching!

I submit that this is not an appropriate instrument for use in the mass.

 

[JButky]

The kazoo, the jew’s harp (or juice harp), the spoons, and the banjo. I’ve never heard these even in the most lively Protestant worship services.

The episcopal church next door to my parish had a minister that played banjo during their service. No Kazoo or J Harp though.

It was rather scary.

Joe B

 

[benedictgal]

Since all musical instruments are “secular” insofar as they were designed for general use, the Church’s attitude that secular instruments are inappropriate for liturgical use is absurd. I wouldn’t even ban musical styles from liturgical use since the use sanctifies it. After all a chalice is just a cup made of a durable material… until it is blessed for and by use in the liturgy.

Matthew

Matthew, I would urge you to read the documents on sacred liturgy. It is not absurd for the Church to hold to her belief regarding musical instruments. She has rubrics and guidelines that she uses to safeguard the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Cardinal Arinze has made several statements regarding musical instruments, as has Pope Benedict XVI, both as Cardinal Ratzinger and as pontiff.

Your final statement is definitely a mistaken one, since, the chalice is not merely made of durable material. It must be made either of gold or silver. This is called for in the rubrics.