Can fixation on the Mass be a form of idolatry?

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Sarpedon

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It’s often said that people can make an “idol” out of intrinisically good things- like money, relationships, sex, and entertainment. This happens when the focus of a person is shifted from God onto one of these things.

Does it not seem as if this same phenomenom happens with the liturgy? People become so fixated on it that they leave the Church (quite ironic). They spend all their time thinking about (and bashing) the liturgy rather than God in the Eucharist- which is the point of the mass. They spend all their time combating an approved form of the mass rather than spreading the faith and hope of the mass itself. It seems to me that all of these things are distractions from what we really should be doing- worshipping God with all our heart, mind, and soul and bringing that joy to the world.

Of course, the pendulum swings the other way too. If I spend all my time focusing on trying to right the problem above and not on God, that’s not good either. I have to be on guard to have a proper balance as well.
 
I certainly do think that fixation on the Mass could become a form of idolatry. If not idolatry, I certainly have seen people so fixated on the Mass that it seems to be detrimental to themselves. As you said though, the pendulum can, and does, swing to the other side too.

Very interesting observation.
 
Certainly it can. Anything can, the best of ideas can become evil when it replaces God. Which is why being a traditionalist, modernist, conservative, liberal, etc, is wrong- it makes Catholicism about one thing, when Catholicism is about all things.

I am a strong proponent of tradition and traditional liturgy- I see it like road signs and markings on the path to God, not technically necessary and not good in and of themselves, but they help EXTREMELY in keeping you on course. If one stops to admire the signage, one won’t be getting anywhere, will one? However, if one completely ignores it, it is quite easy to get lost(ie the modernist church). This is why one needs a balance- not a centrist position between traditionalist and modernist, but a balance, where one does not criticize people beacuse they don’t do fancy liturgical things, but where one criticizes because someone removes a traditional practice in order to reflect a heresy- such as removing the consecration bells to diminish the idea that God is above us and holy. It isn’t the act of not using bells that is wrong, it is the idea that one should diminish the presence of God that is.
 
Sarpedon said:
It’s often said that people can make an “idol” out of intrinisically good things- like money, relationships, sex, and entertainment. This happens when the focus of a person is shifted from God onto one of these things.

Does it not seem as if this same phenomenom happens with the liturgy? People become so fixated on it that they leave the Church (quite ironic). They spend all their time thinking about (and bashing) the liturgy rather than God in the Eucharist- which is the point of the mass. They spend all their time combating an approved form of the mass rather than spreading the faith and hope of the mass itself. It seems to me that all of these things are distractions from what we really should be doing- worshipping God with all our heart, mind, and soul and bringing that joy to the world.

Of course, the pendulum swings the other way too. If I spend all my time focusing on trying to right the problem above and not on God, that’s not good either. I have to be on guard to have a proper balance as well.
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I remember my father telling me once, “Nothing is more evil than good in excess” …kind of mirrors the irony you pointed out about “leaving the Church”. After all the threads I’ve posted on and read, I’d have to agree with you 100 % .

It’s kind of sad. As much as a lot of the individual arguments contain some validity, it’s the air of bitterness or indignation sometimes conveyed which I find to be most unfortunate. I have met/know people like those you’ve described and they are not happy people.

Our beloved Lord said something about a country/house divided against itself [Matt 12:25], and John 13:35 ,“This is how **all **will know you are my disciples; by the love you have for one another”, says to me that we are sometimes causing “all” to squint in order to be able to recognize us as His disciples.

One point where I would say the thinking becomes convoluted is when it is suggested that, due to certain ordinary or extraordinary ministers one should refrain from receiving Holy Communion worthily and remain in one’s pew to make a “spiritual communion” instead. When Christ is waiting there with open arms, filled with all the graces and love that can be ours for the asking…some would rather say, “Jesus, send me a hug” instead.

Another thing my dad had said on the subject immediately above: “If we knew Who was coming…if we **really **knew Who was coming to us, we’d receive Communion from the hand of a chimpanzee if we had to”.

We’re all wounded ,we’re all one family and we all need prayer. We need to pray for each other…even/especially the ones who have left home.
 
Interesting thought - However, I don’t think it’s a fixaton (idolatry-wise). I’m hoping I don’t start a heated debate here. It’s a matter of fearing that changes (in this case, to the Mass) might in some way compromise it? If you saw the Host being handled in a way that you thought was improper - would you not feel the obligation to speak out? Again, I’m not trying to start a debate - just make a comparison. The Mass is the most perfect prayer, and I think that it’s not fixation - but a serious concern on the part of so many Catholics.
 
Sarpedon said:
It’s often said that people can make an “idol” out of intrinisically good things- like money, relationships, sex, and entertainment. This happens when the focus of a person is shifted from God onto one of these things.

Does it not seem as if this same phenomenom happens with the liturgy? People become so fixated on it that they leave the Church (quite ironic). They spend all their time thinking about (and bashing) the liturgy rather than God in the Eucharist- which is the point of the mass. They spend all their time combating an approved form of the mass rather than spreading the faith and hope of the mass itself. It seems to me that all of these things are distractions from what we really should be doing- worshipping God with all our heart, mind, and soul and bringing that joy to the world.

Of course, the pendulum swings the other way too. If I spend all my time focusing on trying to right the problem above and not on God, that’s not good either. I have to be on guard to have a proper balance as well.
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Couldn’t have said it better myself 👍
 
It’s an interesting concept.

I think what is so sad is that people like me who are weaker tend to be affected by what the extremists point out about Mass. When I first became Catholic, I just enjoyed Mass and didn’t worry about anything. I had been told that the Bishops had everything under control, and I trusted.

Well, then I came here and started hearing about the abuses and how SERIOUS they were.

And now, I have a hard time just enjoying the Mass. I find myself sitting up and going “Hmmm” whenever anything is the least bit different.

And I don’t WANT to be this way!!!

I feel that I’ve been “infected” by a liturgical virus. And I want it OUT of me. I want to be able to trust my bishops again, like a child, instead of constantly wondering if they’ve “gone liberal” because they allow Happy Birthday to the priest to be sung after the Mass.
 
Cat said:
It’s an interesting concept.

I think what is so sad is that people like me who are weaker tend to be affected by what the extremists point out about Mass. When I first became Catholic, I just enjoyed Mass and didn’t worry about anything. I had been told that the Bishops had everything under control, and I trusted.

Well, then I came here and started hearing about the abuses and how SERIOUS they were.

And now, I have a hard time just enjoying the Mass. I find myself sitting up and going “Hmmm” whenever anything is the least bit different.

And I don’t WANT to be this way!!!

I feel that I’ve been “infected” by a liturgical virus. And I want it OUT of me. I want to be able to trust my bishops again, like a child, instead of constantly wondering if they’ve “gone liberal” because they allow Happy Birthday to the priest to be sung after the Mass.
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Funny that you say this. When I first started perusing CAF, I started feeling the same way…pondering what I saw at Mass, not only on Sunday, but on weekdays.

It DOES become something of a disease. But after I actually started posting and interacting here, my concern went away and was replaced by shaking my head.

I find myself grinning ear-to-ear at Mass now, to the point that my wife asks me “WHAT are you grinning about”? I’m grinning because I realize now just how much I love my Church, the Mass, and everything that goes along with it. I’m grinning as I ponder whether there are those in OUR pews who are mentally critiquing this Mass…or taking pictures, or shooting video for YouTube.

The more I think about it, the lucker I feel 😃
 
muffinmojo said:
This is why one needs a balance- not a centrist position between traditionalist and modernist, but a balance, where one does not criticize people beacuse they don’t do fancy liturgical things, but where one criticizes because someone removes a traditional practice in order to reflect a heresy- such as removing the consecration bells to diminish the idea that God is above us and holy.
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I think this is a bit of an overblown accusation. Reflect a heresy? I hardly think so! By the by, I do like the bells.
 
Conservative said:
Interesting thought - However, I don’t think it’s a fixaton (idolatry-wise). I’m hoping I don’t start a heated debate here. It’s a matter of fearing that changes (in this case, to the Mass) might in some way compromise it? If you saw the Host being handled in a way that you thought was improper - would you not feel the obligation to speak out? Again, I’m not trying to start a debate - just make a comparison. The Mass is the most perfect prayer, and I think that it’s not fixation - but a serious concern on the part of so many Catholics.
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That’s very well put.

I’ve worked as a special skills lay assistant to a severely handicapped priest and as assistant to 4 consecutive chaplains in a large palliative care institution for almost 14 years now. After one particular change in the chaplaincy (this is outside of Mass, but just barely) I began to find the Blessed Sacrament in the strainer of an improvised sacristy sink (directly after Mass) - that’s a sink …not a sacrarium.

Although there were already other difficulties with the new chaplain, I knew I had to speak out on this one…and soon. I tried to talk it over with a priest other than the chaplain first. His reply was, “Well you know when Our Lord was on the Cross, his Precious Blood poured out onto the ground.” Without even knowing what I was saying, I immediately replied, “Okay… but did the Precious Blood go into the sewers and mix with what was there?” At this the priest lit up and exclaimed, “Ohh!..I think the Lord is trying to tell us something this morning.” (I’m not a person of great learning so I was even more surprised than the priest was at the answer I gave).

The point is abuses do exist. Some we need to speak out on. Others…well it’s more a question of whether we can stick in out in the trenches a while longer; without ever losing sight of the wealth of good in the Church.

Our Holy Catholic Church is still beautiful and worthy of our love. If I’m ever at the point where liturgical inconsistencies or minor deviations from the norm begin to control/obsess me, I hope someone will please pray for me…because, at least objectively, it doesn’t appear to be a particularly pleasant position to be in.

I found the thoughts of Fr. John Zuhlsdorf, to be particularly insightful. His May 28th page , for example, presents a unity linking the newer form and the older form of the Mass.
…can be read at the following link:
wdtprs.com/blog/
 
I apologize to fellow members, the link just provided in post #11 of this thread seems to have evolved and now directs the reader towards other information ( on Mass abuses etc) rather than the page entitled “'Reviewing WDTPRS Bullet Points”.
If it doesn’t evolve anymore (as of 1:50 pm eastern standard time 05/28/08), the correct link is now : wdtprs.com/blog/2008/05/reviewing-wdtprs-bullet-points/

Again, my apologies for that (those things are already appearing and being discussed in other threads).
😊
 
The original post made me think of the story of the Good Samaritan, in which those who wanted to do their service at the Temple crossed to the other side of the road from the man beaten and robbed, in order to avoid ritual uncleanliness.

All the commandments, and in the end every form of reverence, are meant as expressions of the two great commandments. One cannot reverence God and show contempt for his brother, for the Lord taught that those who hold a brother in contempt are subject to judgement. To be your brother’s judge is to put yourself in the place reserved for the One Judge; the Apostles taught this quite clearly.

We may not ignore abuses, but neither may we abuse our brothers in order to not abuse the Lord. If we are to hold to proper reverence to God, we must strive for humility and love towards all. If we are to love all, we must witness irreverence toward the Lord to no one. We can’t love anyone as we ought unless we worship and adore the Lord as we ought, and teach others to do likewise.

If finding the “narrow way” were a matter of holding hard either as far to the left or as far to the right as we could, it would not be difficult to find it. As it is, we need the guidance of the Holy Spirit. We are too blind and weak to find that way on our own.
 
rwoehmke said:
I think this is a bit of an overblown accusation. Reflect a heresy? I hardly think so! By the by, I do like the bells.
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Ah…I didn’t get what I was trying to say across. I was trying to say that changes in liturgical tradition are not inherently wrong, as man-made traditions are not inherently good. For example, simply removing consecration bells is not inherently bad(despite what some here might say), but removing them because someone wants to detract from the holiness of the Mass(and make it more inclusive or whatever) IS wrong.

Another example- singing modern music isn’t inherently bad, but when traditional music is replaced with modern music for the express purpose of changing the attitude of Mass-from sacred to communal it is wrong.

I’m trying to agree with the above poster. Almost anything can become a form of idolatry- even trying to avoid becoming a traditionalist or a modernist and tryign to maintain the ‘high ground’ can become something that takes us away from God.
 
Here’s another thought: Who the heck was the one who decided to go around labelling everything traditionalist or modernist in the first place ?..so what was their position anyway? 😉

Hopefully before any of us is obliged to say, “I’m a traditionalist”, or “I’m a modernist”, we’ll first say: “I’m a Roman Catholic.”

If I understood the previous post (please correct me if I didn’t) properly, should one attempt to maintain the “high ground” in between the so called "modernist’ and “traditionalist” positions simply in order to avoid controversy, it could ultimately mean we’re afraid what others may think; in which case the intentions are all messed up.

As Easterjoy put it, the moment we start judging another should be yet one more indicator to us that intentions are going askew.

So the “balance” spoken of in post # 4, to me would imply being able to draw on the good both from the old and the new; as Our Lord Himself said in Matthew 13:52 :

52 He said unto them: Therefore every scribe instructed in the kingdom of heaven, is like to a man that is a householder, who bringeth forth out of his treasure new things and old.
 
Sarpedon said:
Does it not seem as if this same phenomenom happens with the liturgy? People become so fixated on it that they leave the Church (quite ironic). They spend all their time thinking about (and bashing) the liturgy rather than God in the Eucharist- which is the point of the mass. They spend all their time combating an approved form of the mass rather than spreading the faith and hope of the mass itself. It seems to me that all of these things are distractions from what we really should be doing- worshipping God with all our heart, mind, and soul and bringing that joy to the world.
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Quite an observation but, if true, what does it say of the spirit of Vatican II, modern liturgical committees, and all the progressives that have only tradition-breaking practices on their agenda?
 
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NeedImprovement:
Hopefully before any of us is obliged to say, “I’m a traditionalist”, or “I’m a modernist”, we’ll first say: “I’m a Roman Catholic.”
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I refuse to identify myself as a “Roman Catholic” unless that is being employed as a synonym for a Catholic who belongs to the sui juris Latin Church. The term ‘Roman Catholic’ is a fabrication of Anglicans who use it in a qualifying sense to denote our Church, because they incorrectly perceive their ecclesial communities to be constituents of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Also, modernists are not Catholics, so they should not be identifying themselves as though they are. Modernism is officially considered a heresy by the Church, and a Latin Catholic who subscribes to it incurs automatic excommunication.
 
Padua_Minded said:
I refuse to identify myself as a “Roman Catholic” unless that is being employed as a synonym for a Catholic who belongs to the sui juris Latin Church. The term ‘Roman Catholic’ is a fabrication of Anglicans who use it in a qualifying sense to denote our Church, because they incorrectly perceive their ecclesial communities to be constituents of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Also, modernists are not Catholics, so they should not be identifying themselves as though they are. Modernism is officially considered a heresy by the Church, and a Latin Catholic who subscribes to it incurs automatic excommunication.
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Okay, Catholic then, but to say Occidental [Western] Catholic or Catholic who belongs to the sui juris Latin Church makes the distinction between us and the Eastern Catholic Church; although their rites are different and some of the Codes of Canon Law apply to one or the other, we’re still in full communion with them, in other words we are both one.

It’s true the term *roman catholic *does not appear in any documents of Vatican II, only “Catholic”. Still , if you ask 90% of members of the Western Catholic Church what religion they are, they’re probably going to reply “Roman Catholic” although technically not correct. That’s the sense in which it was meant…synonymically.

Perhaps the choice of words of modernist and traditionalist could have been better expressed differently, except for the fact that my comments quoted were in reference to post # 4 of this thread which used those exact terms (sometimes quoting only one or two phrases of a passage changes its complexion when the context is removed).

There are a lot of misconceptions which need to be cleared up in the area of defining traditionalism and modernism…for example some believe the use of the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite rather than the Extraordinary Form is automatically modernism. Pope Benedict XVI is endeavoring to place a healing balm on this wound with motu proprio, which he hopes (in his own words) will encourage “interior reconciliation in the heart of the Church”. If the pope says one is in the “heart of the Church”, then that one is certainly not excommunicated.

Thanks Padua_Minded - I’ve learned a few more technical things about my faith today.

I will, however, continue to say that I am attending Holy Mass meaning the Holy Sacrifice even though the term mass is simply derived from the “sending” of the faithful at the conclusion of the Mass; and is therefore not directly linked to the Sacrifice of Calvary but rather adopted in a synonymical manner not unlike the name Roman Catholic is synonymical.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

1332 Holy Mass (Missa), because the liturgy in which the mystery of salvation is accomplished concludes with the sending forth (missio) of the faithful, so that they may fulfill God’s will in their daily lives.
 
ProVobis said:
Quite an observation but, if true, what does it say of the spirit of Vatican II, modern liturgical committees, and all the progressives that have only tradition-breaking practices on their agenda?
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If these things are wrong (I’m not going to discuss them particularly), then they should be addressed. The problem is that if someone goes so overboard with correcting them that they lose sight of God, it sort of negates the purpose of correcting them in the first place.

Of course, we do not to confront sin. The problem is to not allow our confrontation of it to eclipse God and virtue.
 
NeedImprovement said:
If I understood the previous post (please correct me if I didn’t) properly, should one attempt to maintain the “high ground” in between the so called "modernist’ and “traditionalist” positions simply in order to avoid controversy, it could ultimately mean we’re afraid what others may think; in which case the intentions are all messed up.
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Not what I was saying at all = ) I don’t think we should avoid being modernist or traditionalist because it might offend people, I’m saying we should not put tradition or whathaveyou above God- most would consider me a traditionalist, but when I debate with a traditionalist, I am accused of being a modernist. The balance that God wishes is not a mix or a compromise between the two, it simply ‘is’ and bears resemblance to some man-made ideas without being any of them(though people with man-made ideas will always say they are).
 
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