Can free will be possible with an all knowing God?

[Duke_of_St_Paul]

I’d like to add to this thread with my own thoughts and questions.

How can our free will be free will in the true sense when God ultimately knows everything, including all possibilities? For example, before the creation there were literally an infinite number of choices, or possibilities, God could have made. Think along the lines of atomic structures colliding, splitting, fusing, and exchanging electrons; what could have been if just one particular atom changed course or produced a result instead of its actual course and result . Over the span of time, since the beginning of the universe, one such atom could have drastically influenced the course of events.

Now God, knowing all this, chose to grow his creation in a very specific way causing that atom to do this and this molecule to do that. As a result, it would seem he predestined the unfolding of his creation from the very beginning. My choices, derived from my thoughts, are essentially a product of such an interplay of matter and energy; they are merely a calculation.

How does something which is calculated have free will?

 

[ffg]

I think people can either remember, or conjure up a situation where the result of an action is a known before it occurs.

If I jump off a 1000 foot bridge with no parachute, no water below (or even if there was water), I and anyone watching could know the result fairly easily before it occured.

Have you ever seen a car accident happen? In real time, many times, you say to yourself, ‘that guy is going to hit that guy’.

Just because God sees, doesn’t mean he’s driving.

We’re driving our ‘free will’.

 

[Giovonni]

God may not be driving, but he definitely designed the road. Have you ever read about a car fatality that resulted because a stop sign was removed or stolen?

 

[ffg]

God may not be driving, but he definitely designed the road.

And we were told the road he designed is narrow. We’ll want to find that one. Any other roads might have too many distractions.

The road existing has no power over the driver’s action / inaction though, I see no cause - effect.

Have you ever read about a car fatality that resulted because a stop sign was removed or stolen?

And who would do such a thing? Perhaps one of those pesky creations making a choice to do so.

Still no relation between the sign existing (or not) related to the driver’s action / inaction.

(Besides, the driver should know the rules of the road, you approach every intersection with caution, especially one with no sign)

(Sidenote, I do this every day, there is one intersection that seems so odd to not be a 4 way stop, I treat it as one and stop before the intersection just incase, even though I have the right of way)

 

[Giovonni]

The road existing has no power over the driver’s action / inaction though, I see no cause - effect.

I think the road existing has a huge impact on the driver’s action or inaction. Imagine you’re going home from work in a snowstorm. To get home you have the option of going down a steep ice covered street which will end in a crash, or the option of going safely down a much less steep road. A rational person will take the less steep road. The driving factor in this decision is a desire to return home safe and not end up hurt. You might call it our God given instinct to survive. It influences most of the decisions we make.

And who would do such a thing? Perhaps one of those pesky creations making a choice to do so.

Still no relation between the sign existing (or not) related to the driver’s action / inaction.

(Besides, the driver should know the rules of the road, you approach every intersection with caution, especially one with no sign)

(Sidenote, I do this every day, there is one intersection that seems so odd to not be a 4 way stop, I treat it as one and stop before the intersection just incase, even though I have the right of way)

I like to think that most people would never steal a stop sign that will knowingly cause a fatality. The ones who do are probably kids or teenagers and they think its harmless fun until someone gets hurt. That was the case when three 20 year olds took a stop sign in New York in 1997 which ended in the death of some teenagers who were on their way home after a night of bowling. The 20 year olds were held accountable and sentenced to 30 years in jail. Now imagine how you’d respond if the 20 year olds knew 100% that there would be a fatality. Would you hold them accountable, or just say “well it’s the drivers fault?” The fact that you slow down just in case is advice more people should follow, but for most people that doesn’t negate the stop sign stealer’s accountability, at least on some level.

 

[ffg]

I think the road existing has a huge impact on the driver’s action or inaction. Imagine you’re going home from work in a snowstorm. To get home you have the option of going down a steep ice covered street which will end in a crash, or the option of going safely down a much less steep road. A rational person will take the less steep road. The driving factor in this decision is a desire to return home safe and not end up hurt. You might call it our God given instinct to survive. It influences most of the decisions we make

I’m kind of confused as to your point in writing as the question is if Free Will is truly free.

But to play along -
Your latest scenario is an example of choice on the part of the created, the point of the argument for free will.

But contrary to your first line above, there is still no cause-effect relationship because road conditions are not equal to the road existing or who designed it.

I like to think that most people would never steal a stop sign that will knowingly cause a fatality. The ones who do are probably kids or teenagers and they think its harmless fun until someone gets hurt. That was the case when three 20 year olds took a stop sign in New York in 1997 which ended in the death of some teenagers who were on their way home after a night of bowling. The 20 year olds were held accountable and sentenced to 30 years in jail. Now imagine how you’d respond if the 20 year olds knew 100% that there would be a fatality. Would you hold them accountable, or just say “well it’s the drivers fault?” The fact that you slow down just in case is advice more people should follow, but for most people that doesn’t negate the stop sign stealer’s accountability, at least on some level.

ok. you are now entering human legal-eze which is not a part of the topic, nor intended on my part in my last.

I know nothing of the 1997 scenario you just described and have no opinion on it considering my lack of knowledge in the case.

By the way, Welcome to the forums!

 

[Giovonni]

I’m kind of confused as to your point in writing as the question is if Free Will is truly free.

I suppose the point is that what we call free will is heavily influenced by our external surroundings and our internal instincts, thus compelling us to act in a specific way. This seems contrary to what you were implying. Since these factors are created by an all knowing God, at what point does a compulsion to act a certain way infringe on free will?

ok. you are now entering human legal-eze which is not a part of the topic, nor intended on my part.

My intent was only to use an example of someone who influenced the environment in such a way that it affected the decision making powers (free will) of a third party. I apologize for the confusion.

By the way, Welcome to the forums!

Thank you!

 

[ffg]

I suppose the point is that what we call free will is heavily influenced by our external surroundings and our internal instincts, thus compelling us to act in a specific way. This seems contrary to what you were implying. Since these factors are created by an all knowing God, at what point does a compulsion to act a certain way infringe on free will?

I think we’ll be able to clarify the confusion. Unfortunately, we don’t have powerpoint to use, but let’s see what we can do.

I think I have an idea of where your thought process was with your question here.

I didn’t say there is no influence to choice. I was simply keeping the foundation that choice exists in spite of conditions (surroundings).

Even when the decision is obvious (Compelling- the icy road vs the clean road), it’s still a choice. Being the topic is God’s possible ‘puppeteering’ due to knowledge, I was simply giving an example as to how knowledge of the future doesn’t remove the will of a decision maker or create a puppeteer in God.

I absolutely agree our surroundings (environment) influence our decision making. In the case of the Church, it exists for a purpose - to bring people to Jesus. How - through influence.

If our decision making ability was not influenced by our surroundings, I would argue that strengthens the thought that God is simply playing with puppets.

Temptation to do wrong is the strongest influence in our lives, yet people choose to do right. Free will must be extremely free to choose to avoid the strongest of temptations.

So to answer your question, there is no point where an ‘infringing’ occurs, rather the influence is proper, normal, and keeps free will as it is, free.

 

[Giovonni]

I didn’t say there is no influence to choice. I was simply keeping the foundation that choice exists in spite of conditions (surroundings).

Even when the decision is obvious (Compelling- the icy road vs the clean road), it’s still a choice. Being the topic is God’s possible ‘puppeteering’ due to knowledge, I was simply giving an example as to how knowledge of the future doesn’t remove the will of a decision maker or create a puppeteer in God.

Thank you for clarifying your thoughts. I understand the OP’s topic. I also agree that foreknowledge by itself does not necessarily lead to predestination. That is why I am adding one item to the equation because I think it is important to include. It seems perfect foreknowledge plus the creation of circumstances which leads to a given outcome, is the equivalent of “puppeteering”.

If I create the situation where I am certain you will choose the clean road over the icy one then I am, in effect, manipulating you. You may think you have freely chosen the clean road but that is only because you are not consciously aware of thousands of various factors that went into the decision.

If our decision making ability was not influenced by our surroundings, I would argue that strengthens the thought that God is simply playing with puppets.

I’m not sure I follow. I don’t think I can even imagine a situation where our decision making ability is not influenced by our surroundings or experience. You cannot get outside of your own brain.

Temptation to do wrong is the strongest influence in our lives, yet people choose to do right. Free will must be extremely free to choose to avoid the strongest of temptations.

I disagree. I think the desire to avoid pain or seek pleasure is the strongest influence. The reason some people do right is because they have a different set of values which they have been ingrained with through experience.

Why does one person overeat to the point of gluttony even when they know it’s bad? Because they cannot resist the temporary pleasure experience they get from eating. The only way to break this cycle is by creating a different value set. They must be taught that not indulging will lead to a happier life.

 

[ffg]

Thank you for clarifying your thoughts. I understand the OP’s topic. I also agree that foreknowledge by itself does not necessarily lead to predestination. That is why I am adding one item to the equation because I think it is important to include. It seems perfect foreknowledge plus the creation of circumstances which leads to a given outcome, is the equivalent of “puppeteering”.

If I create the situation where I am certain you will choose the clean road over the icy one then I am, in effect, manipulating you. You may think you have freely chosen the clean road but that is only because you are not consciously aware of thousands of various factors that went into the decision.

Good talk.

Alright, let’s see here. We have to have a foundation. For the sake here, the foundation will be - Free Will.

By adding (or subtracting) one or more items to the equation (free will), yet still wanting to call X, ‘X’ is impossible, it’s now Y.

We are not talking about Free Will when we add or subtract from it.

God made a flood. Beforehand He told Noah to do something about it. Did God force Noah’s hand? for the sake of discussion, sure. Would the communication and later action of Noah, fall under the definition of Free Will? I would say more likely ‘obedience’.

But, at the end of the day, even with a message from God, he could have punted. However…

Something maybe to consider here which is a great lesson I think that is under-taught. That is people like to link freedom to the ability to decide. Rather, Freedom, in it’s truest sense is the result from deciding to love God. We see this with Moses and his crew in a very physical way (as well as spiritual).

I’m not sure I follow. I don’t think I can even imagine a situation where our decision making ability is not influenced by our surroundings or experience. You cannot get outside of your own brain.

My point was simply, if influence is proper, normal, and keeps free will as it is, free. Then if we are not influenced in our environment / surroundings to decide anything, and yet exist, we are puppets.

I disagree. I think the desire to avoid pain or seek pleasure is the strongest influence. The reason some people do right is because they have a different set of values which they have been ingrained with through experience.

We are saying just about the same thing here, just differently. What is our example to follow? Jesus, no?

So if where we will find our greatest freedom is through a selfless life of giving, and to do so is to fight against our feelings and desires of ‘want’, there must be a ‘right’ if fighting the ‘want’ is worth it.

Where we might disagree is in the how. You said through life experience. I think you would find on this website that many people learned (and as we all are, still learning) their way to ‘right’.

If we could experience our way to ‘right’, what would be the point of Jesus coming to Earth to teach?

I think if you look at history, experience without learning in good and right ways, most times will lead to wrong ways.

Why does one person overeat to the point of gluttony even when they know it’s bad? Because they cannot resist the temporary pleasure experience they get from eating. The only way to break this cycle is by creating a different value set. They must be taught that not indulging will lead to a happier life

And now I’m confused because here you mention taught, vs experiencing to get to ‘right’.

Great few back and forths though.

Have a great weekend.

 

[SentinelofTruth]

agarber:

This is a question that hangs on me and I have yet to find an answer I can wrap my mind around. I will try my best to explain what I mean but this question.

If God is an all knowing God who knows everything from the beginning to the end of time, then that would mean he knows what we will do today, tomorrow, and the day that we die. God knows w This is a question that hangs on me and I have yet to find an answer I can wrap my mind around. I will try my best to explain what I mean but this question.

If God is an all knowing God who knows everything from the beginning to the end of time, then that would mean he knows what we will do today, tomorrow, and the day that we die. God knows who will be saved and who will turn away from him. God knows every decision I will make before I even know I have a choice of a decision.

My conflict is that if this is true, then how I am truly living a life of free will? Yes I can say and feel that I made the decision as to what shirt to wear today, but God knew what my decision would have been before I made it. This to me makes me feel like I am living through a predestined script of my life that God knows every detail of rather than truly guiding my own path of life through the decisions I make.

This is not a way of trying to say that what we do does not matter or that our decisions are with out consequence, but rather that God already knows if in the end we will make the right decision to follow him or to reject him. How is this free will if the end of our life stories is already known?

I hope that helps my question make sense.
Reply With Quoteho will be saved and who will turn away from him. God knows every decision I will make before I even know I have a choice of a decision.

My conflict is that if this is true, then how I am truly living a life of free will? Yes I can say and feel that I made the decision as to what shirt to wear today, but God knew what my decision would have been before I made it. This to me makes me feel like I am living through a predestined script of my life that God knows every detail of rather than truly guiding my own path of life through the decisions I make.

This is not a way of trying to say that what we do does not matter or that our decisions are with out consequence, but rather that God already knows if in the end we will make the right decision to follow him or to reject him. How is this free will if the end of our life stories is already known?

I hope that helps my que This is a question that hangs on me and I have yet to find an answer I can wrap my mind around. I will try my best to explain what I mean but this question.

If God is an all knowing God who knows everything from the beginning to the end of time, then that would mean he knows what we will do today, tomorrow, and the day that we die. God knows who will be saved and who will turn away from him. God knows every decision I will make before I even know I have a choice of a decision.

My conflict is that if this is true, then how I am truly living a life of free will? Yes I can say and feel that I made the decision as to what shirt to wear today, but God knew what my decision would have been before I made it. This to me makes me feel like I am living through a predestined script of my life that God knows every detail of rather than truly guiding my own path of life through the decisions I make.

This is not a way of trying to say that what we do does not matter or that our decisions are with out consequence, but rather that God already knows if in the end we will make the right decision to follow him or to reject him. How is this free will if the end of our life stories is already known?

I hope that helps my question make sense.

IMO the timestream can be seen as parallel to eternity, so God can see all moments of the timestream at once. Thus, it’s not he can predict our choices, but that he’s already seen them.