Can future Popes change established doctrine?

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I’m considering converting to Catholicism; and intellectually, I’m trying to cover my “bases” against many anti-Catholic ideas/arguments. One of these would be the Antichrist and the Pope…

I’ve pretty well figured that if future Popes CANNOT change already-established doctrines of the Catholic Church (at least, doctrines that have been “infallibly” confessed/established by previous Popes or counsels), then there is just no way the Antichrist would ever be a Pope, because the divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ is already established in the Catholic Church. And obviously any Antichrist won’t acknowledge Christ’s divinity.

I guess I basically want to know if it’s possible for a future Pope to change things to where the “Catholic Church” says Jesus isn’t God the Son and/or Mary wasn’t a virgin at Christ’s birth. --But more precisely I want to know if future Popes can change already-established doctrine(s).

Thank you anyone and everyone who has anything to say.
–Jason
 
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love-bias:
I want to know if future Popes can change already-established doctrine(s).
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The pope cannot change the truth.
 
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love-bias:
I’m considering converting to Catholicism; and intellectually, I’m trying to cover my “bases” against many anti-Catholic ideas/arguments. One of these would be the Antichrist and the Pope…

I’ve pretty well figured that if future Popes CANNOT change already-established doctrines of the Catholic Church (at least, doctrines that have been “infallibly” confessed/established by previous Popes or counsels), then there is just no way the Antichrist would ever be a Pope, because the divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ is already established in the Catholic Church. And obviously any Antichrist won’t acknowledge Christ’s divinity.

I guess I basically want to know if it’s possible for a future Pope to change things to where the “Catholic Church” says Jesus isn’t God the Son and/or Mary wasn’t a virgin at Christ’s birth. --But more precisely I want to know if future Popes can change already-established doctrine(s).

Thank you anyone and everyone who has anything to say.
–Jason
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Welcome home.

Suppose a future pope “looked the other way” while church leaders (not protected by the gift of Infallibility) taught error. You might think there was an anti-pope in place.
A current example is that of Cardinal Kasper who teaches/suggests that the Jews do not need Jesus to be saved. Because there has been no visible discipline of this error does not make JPII the anti-pope.

Instead, have confidence on and in Matthew 16. Jesus promised that the gates of hell (not just hell-but the lies of hell) will not prevail against the gates of Heaven (not just heaven, but the Truth - Jesus - Who is in heaven. Simple, will not. Not sometimes, or maybe, but will NOT.

When Christ said,"…whatsoever you shall bind in heaven…" He was teaching that all Truth already exists and is unchanging. The Church cannot change doctrine! The Holy Spirit will prevent it. This power to bind and loose was understood as divine by the Jews, and should be by us today too.

MrS
 
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Matt16_18:
The pope cannot change the truth.
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Hi Matt16_18,
Then are you saying the Pope can’t change doctrines? Correct me if I’m wrong please, but supposedly the established doctrines ARE “the truth.”

thanks…
 
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love-bias:
Hi Matt16_18,
Then are you saying the Pope can’t change doctrines? Correct me if I’m wrong please, but supposedly the established doctrines ARE “the truth.”

thanks…
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You are correct in your assement. Doctrines and Dogmas are windows of truth into the fullness of Truth of God. They absolutely and objectively true.
 
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MrS:
Welcome home.

The Church cannot change doctrine! The Holy Spirit will prevent it. This power to bind and loose was understood as divine by the Jews, and should be by us today too.
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I see. I somehow neglected to consider the simple idea that the same God Who loves me and has led me to the truth by His own power can and will continue to do so… Didn’t really think about it like that before… 🙂 thanks.
 
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love-bias:
Hi Matt16_18,
Then are you saying the Pope can’t change doctrines?
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Yes, that is correct. The doctrines of the Church cannot change because the truth cannot change. The pope is like every other Christian, he must hold fast to sound doctrine and he must abide in sound doctrine. The pope is given the charism of infallibility to protect the doctrine of Christ from falling into corruption.

… a bishop … must hold firm to the sure word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to confute those who contradict it.
Titus 1:7-9

Any one who goes ahead and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God…
2John 1:9
 
so what would happen if a pope decided to stand before the crowds in St Peter’s square and say “I ex cathedra declare that Jesus did not Resurrect, and this is binding on all Catholics to believe”? Would God intervene and physically stop the Pope from doing this? Just how strong is the “cannot” we’re talking about here?
 
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love-bias:
I’m considering converting to Catholicism; and intellectually, I’m trying to cover my “bases” against many anti-Catholic ideas/arguments. One of these would be the Antichrist and the Pope…

I’ve pretty well figured that if future Popes CANNOT change already-established doctrines of the Catholic Church (at least, doctrines that have been “infallibly” confessed/established by previous Popes or counsels), then there is just no way the Antichrist would ever be a Pope, because the divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ is already established in the Catholic Church. And obviously any Antichrist won’t acknowledge Christ’s divinity.

I guess I basically want to know if it’s possible for a future Pope to change things to where the “Catholic Church” says Jesus isn’t God the Son and/or Mary wasn’t a virgin at Christ’s birth. --But more precisely I want to know if future Popes can change already-established doctrine(s).

Thank you anyone and everyone who has anything to say.
–Jason
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They wouldn’t be able to. The holy Spirit wouldn’t allow it.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
The “cannot” is strong enough that such a thing could never happen. God would work out the details.
 
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Minerva:
so what would happen if a pope decided to stand before the crowds in St Peter’s square and say “I ex cathedra declare that Jesus did not Resurrect, and this is binding on all Catholics to believe”? Would God intervene and physically stop the Pope from doing this? Just how strong is the “cannot” we’re talking about here?
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The only way to know the answer to this question would be for a pope attempt to do such an insane thing and watch what happens. But remember this, formal heresy causes one to lose membership in the Church, and a man cannot be a pope unless he is a member of the Church. Catholics already have it covered both ways … 😛
 
The truths of the Catholic Church can never change. If you beleive they could then you are calling Jesus a liar when he promises that his church will never fall to the gates of the netherworld.
 
In an article found here, ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/INFALLIB.htm , Dr. Carroll reflects:
“I have always found it rather ironically amusing that many historians critical of the Catholic Church find something disreputable in the proclamation of papal infallibility by the First Vatican Council and the discussions and preparations preceding it. Obviously these historians wish this proclamation had never happened and would like to blame those responsible; but in fact the truth of the doctrine of papal infallibility is historically incontrovertible (no natural explanation can account for some 270 Popes never disagreeing with one another in “ex cathedra” statements for 2,000 years, and there are several extraordinary cases of Popes who seemed about to violate infallibility and at the last minute were mysteriously held back from doing so—notably Popes Liberius and Vigilius, in the fourth and sixth centuries, respectively).”
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It is truly a great thing that God Himself has promiused that the gates of hell will not prevail against our Church. No mattewr how many times the enemy has infiltrated Her, She still officially proclaims Christ’s Truth.

In Christ’s peace and joy,

Robin L.
 
it’s a pretty strong logical leap to equate not falling to the gates of Hell with not ever changing anything.

I think matt has the right idea with a pope proclaiming a heresy automatically ceases to be pope. The idea that the Holy Spirit would “step in” to stop it from happening is rather disturbing for this reason: the pope has free will, presumably, and that means the ability to sin, even if the sin will have grave effects on other people. God allows everyone to sin and hurt others, but not the pope? It seems to make the pope a mere puppet of God. Fine and good, but doesn’t it bother anyone that God would take over one man’s free will to prevent him from, say, proclaiming the Assumption didn’t happen, but God won’t take over another man’s free will to prevent him from crashing an airplane into a skyscraper?
 
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Matt16_18:
The pope cannot change the truth.
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I assume this includes the pope’s statement on the ordination of women in the priesthood in 1994. In 1995, Cardinal Ratzinger clarified it by saying that it was an infallibly taught statement. In our current culture, all kinds of priests and “theologians” keep making statements to the contrary. The radical feminists, liberal politicians, and many, many average Catholic laypersons still keep banging the drum for women priests. Why can’t someone just tell them loud and clear that it can’t happen! Shouldn’t this (among other things) be taught clearly from the pulpit?
 
Personally I would like to see the Pope take a 500 multiple choice question test with only one right ex cathedra answer for every question. The test should be given by an unbiased third party and include even the most remote ex cathedra questions over the last two thousand years. The questions should be really tricky. Possibly we could wait untill his mind is almost gone. The Holy Spirit should, if we are right on infallability, make sure that he gets 100% of the questions right regardless of the state of a Pope’s mind or any free willed biases he might personally have. This would prove once and for all the doctrine on infallability.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
 
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Minerva:
it’s a pretty strong logical leap to equate not falling to the gates of Hell with not ever changing anything.

I think matt has the right idea with a pope proclaiming a heresy automatically ceases to be pope. The idea that the Holy Spirit would “step in” to stop it from happening is rather disturbing for this reason: the pope has free will, presumably, and that means the ability to sin, even if the sin will have grave effects on other people. God allows everyone to sin and hurt others, but not the pope? It seems to make the pope a mere puppet of God. Fine and good, but doesn’t it bother anyone that God would take over one man’s free will to prevent him from, say, proclaiming the Assumption didn’t happen, but God won’t take over another man’s free will to prevent him from crashing an airplane into a skyscraper?
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I remember reading two stories about this. Perhaps someone else can provide the names because I don’t have specifics in front of me.

There was a queen who was in cahoots with a bishop to declare some heretical thing as true. This bishop had assured the queen that if he was pope he would teach this heretical thing. Well, the queen had the pope killed and this bishop became pope, but when it came time to state this “new” doctrine he wouldn’t do it. Seems the holy Spirit protected him from teaching error.

There was another pope who had commissioned some translation of the bible that was fraught with error. It had been printed and was ready to go on the market. But before he could OFFICIALLY declare this error ridden bible as acceptable he died.

I haven’t the slightest problem with the holy Spirit literally keeping the pope from officially teaching error. I don’t think it’s an infringement of his free will at all.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
 
Steven Merten:
Personally I would like to see the Pope take a 500 multiple choice question test with only one right ex cathedra answer for every question. The test should be given by an unbiased third party and include even the most remote ex cathedra questions over the last two thousand years. The questions should be really tricky. Possibly we could wait untill his mind is almost gone. The Holy Spirit should, if we are right on infallability, make sure that he gets 100% of the questions right regardless of the state of a Pope’s mind or any free willed biases he might personally have. This would prove once and for all the doctrine on infallability.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
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Nope, that’s exactly opposite of how infallibility works. Infallibility protects him from officially teaching error, not from getting everything right. If the pope was taking a test he wouldn’t be teaching anything in an official capacity anway so the test would actually be testing his knowledge of previously taught dogma, not proof of infallibility.
 
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Catholic4aReasn:
Nope, that’s exactly opposite of how infallibility works. Infallibility protects him from officially teaching error, not from getting everything right. If the pope was taking a test he wouldn’t be teaching anything in an official capacity anway so the test would actually be testing his knowledge of previously taught dogma, not proof of infallibility.
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For being an all powerful God, the Holy Spirit sure has a lot of fine print disclaimers according to Church leaders.
 
Infallibility has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit taking over the pope’s free will, or keeping him from error on test results, or with keeping him from sin. The pope has free will, can make mistakes on tests, and is capable of sin.

Infallibility only means that the Holy Spirit will preserve him from teaching error in matters of faith and morals. It is a negative charism, not a positive charism.

Throughout 2000 years of church history, popes have been both sinners and saints, they’ve been mistaken on various matters.

But in all that time, no matter how bad the pope, none has taught error in matters of faith and morals.

(Please don’t bring up Pope Honorius. He didn’t teach heresy. But he did fail to condemn it when he should have.)

JimG
 
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