Can future Popes change established doctrine?

[Catholic4aReasn]

Steven Merten:

For being an all powerful God, the Holy Spirit sure has a lot of fine print disclaimers according to Church leaders.

Not really, it’s just that scope of papal infallibility is so small. It may seem that it is more than it is because sometimes an explanation of what it is NOT is necessary.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

JimG:

(Please don’t bring up Pope Honorius. He didn’t teach heresy. But he did fail to condemn it when he should have.)

JimG

That’s absolutely right. This is why sometimes the explanation of what papal infallibility is NOT become necessary.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[mtr01]

Minerva:

it’s a pretty strong logical leap to equate not falling to the gates of Hell with not ever changing anything.

I think matt has the right idea with a pope proclaiming a heresy automatically ceases to be pope. The idea that the Holy Spirit would “step in” to stop it from happening is rather disturbing for this reason: the pope has free will, presumably, and that means the ability to sin, even if the sin will have grave effects on other people. God allows everyone to sin and hurt others, but not the pope? It seems to make the pope a mere puppet of God. Fine and good, but doesn’t it bother anyone that God would take over one man’s free will to prevent him from, say, proclaiming the Assumption didn’t happen, but God won’t take over another man’s free will to prevent him from crashing an airplane into a skyscraper?

I think you’re looking at it the wrong way. With the protection of the Holy Spirit, a man who would even think to make such a pronouncement would never be elected pope. I’m sure that when the College of Cardinals meets to elect a pope, one of the criteria would be unwaivering orthodoxy. And I find it highly unlikely that one of the cardinals would be able to hide heterodox opinions under a veil of orthodoxy for years on the off-chance that he’d eventually be elected pope.

Even if I’m completely wrong and off-base on this and God would step in to physically prevent a pope from making such a pronouncement (while allowing someone to crash a plane), who are any of us to question his motives? Who are we to claim to be able to understand the divine will? It’s like the old saying “God works in mysterious ways.”

 

[love-bias]

Thanks everyone! I especially love what Matt16:18 said:

Matt16_18:

…But remember this, formal heresy causes one to lose membership in the Church, and a man cannot be a pope unless he is a member of the Church. Catholics already have it covered both ways …

and,

Matt16_18:

…The doctrines of the Church cannot change because the truth cannot change…

There are other good quotes too. I’ll save all these ideas, in case they come in handy for future use.

adieu.

 

[metal1633]

Steven Merten:

Personally I would like to see the Pope take a 500 multiple choice question test with only one right ex cathedra answer for every question. The test should be given by an unbiased third party and include even the most remote ex cathedra questions over the last two thousand years. The questions should be really tricky. Possibly we could wait untill his mind is almost gone. The Holy Spirit should, if we are right on infallability, make sure that he gets 100% of the questions right regardless of the state of a Pope’s mind or any free willed biases he might personally have. This would prove once and for all the doctrine on infallability.

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com

First, there are not 500 dogmas infallibly defined by ex-cathedra decrees.

Second “Thou shalt not put the Lord thy God to the Test.”

 

[madavis]

If the Pope wants to teach a heresy, he better not intend to go through with it… Someone may know this story better than I, and may have already told it, but one of the Pope’s of long ago, was determined to teach a heresy as doctrine in the Church (I forget which heresy). He was a relitively young Pope and in good health, but just a short time before he came to present his heresy as dogma in the Church, he mysteriously died. Coinscidence???.. I doubt it.

There is also another example of this… there was another Pope of many years back who was influenced by an evil woman. She basically coherced him into teaching a heresy in the Church (again, I forget which heresy). This Pope was determined, by all accounts to present this heresy into the Catechism of the Church. But as he went forth to initiate this heresy as doctrine, he couldn’t do it. He had a sudden and miraculous change of heart on the spot… these things are not by chance. Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church, and he wasnt’ kdding. The Holy Spirit will protect his Church.

These are true stories. There are several books on them, if you wish to check it out. Plus I am sure there are a few people in this forum who would know the stories better than I. It truely is remarkable how the Holy Spirit has protected our Church. These are only two examples. There are many more…

 

[madavis]

Minerva:

Would God intervene and physically stop the Pope from doing this? Just how strong is the “cannot” we’re talking about here?

see my post above… God will do what He needs to do. If a Pope wants to teach heresy, I say let him. Let’s see if he dares to tempt the power of God.

If I remember correctly, the first place I read of these ill-fated Popes was in the book “Born Fundementalist Born Again Catholic” by David Currie. I know these stories are in other books as well, but theres at least one resource for you.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

madavis:

see my post above… God will do what He needs to do. If a Pope wants to teach heresy, I say let him. Let’s see if he dares to tempt the power of God.

If I remember correctly, the first place I read of these ill-fated Popes was in the book “Born Fundementalist Born Again Catholic” by David Currie. I know these stories are in other books as well, but theres at least one resource for you.

David Currie’s book may well be where I got those stories that I posted in #17. It’s a great book. I highly recommend it!

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[madavis]

ah yes… I think you tell the stories a bit more accurately than I do, but those are the two stories in David Currie’s wonderful book.

also, someone above said that if the Holy Spirit steps in this is disturbing because it is a violation of free will. With all due respect, our Lord has power over free will. Afterall, he gave it to us. Remember, God hardened Pharoah’s heart… God will intervene when He needs to or if He plain wants to. Sure we have free will, but God has power over all. The idea that God does not interfere or intervene in this world, that he pretty much wound us up and let us go is more of an Agnostic theology - hardly a Christian theology.

 

[twf]

Actually there’d be more than 500 things metal1633. Remember, everything that has been defined by any of the councils is also to be considered infallibly true…am I not correct? All our official doctrines are to be considered infallible.

I like to simply remember that the Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim 3:15). If the Church is the PILLAR and FOUNDATION of truth, then what sort of foundation is that if it can be chipped away at or cracked? The Church is then of little use…

 

[Peace-bwu]

The Doctrines of the Church *cannot *and will never change. They have been held intact by the Catholic Chuch under protection of the Holy Spirit for about 2.000 years. As empires rise and fall, Sacred Apostolic Tradition (including the Bible) will be protected by the Catholic Church. You will find that at certain points in history theologians may grow in their understanding of this Truth, But it never changes. The Pope’s teachings will never contradict doctrine.

 

[pnewton]

Yes, future popes can *change *doctrine.

They can not change doctrine in any way to contradict truth already revealed. Change should not imply contradiction.

For example, when the Assumption of Mary was defined, that changed the body of dogma that we have to include the assumption. The words used,“at the end of her earthly life” may latter be changed by a future pope to include a dogmatic assertion that Mary died (or did not die).

The reason this distinction is important is because much of the attack on infallability is aimed at changes in doctrine, which do not contradict.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

pnewton:

Yes, future popes can *change *doctrine.

They can not change doctrine in any way to contradict truth already revealed. Change should not imply contradiction.

For example, when the Assumption of Mary was defined, that changed the body of dogma that we have to include the assumption. The words used,“at the end of her earthly life” may latter be changed by a future pope to include a dogmatic assertion that Mary died (or did not die).

The reason this distinction is important is because much of the attack on infallability is aimed at changes in doctrine, which do not contradict.

This is a very good point. Change does not mean contradiction. Jesus said that the holy Spirit would GUIDE us to all truth, which implies a growing into the fullness of truth.

Dogma cannot contradict itself, but it can, and must, develop over time and our understanding develops.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I had wondered if someone was going to catch the bit on “change” of doctrine–good work, pnewton and Catholic4areason!

 

[Matt16_18]

pnewton:

Yes, future popes can *change *doctrine.

The Church cannot change its teachings on faith and morals. But it may restate the doctrines more clearly and completely. Year after year the Church proclaims the same unchanging doctrines. Her doctrines need no reform, for they are of Divine origin, the work of the Incarnate God.

When the Church makes an infallible pronouncement, we are not to suppose that a new doctrine is being introduced. For instance, when the Holy Father defined the Blessed Virgin’s Immaculate Conception and her Assumption as articles of faith, the infallible definition in each case was not a proclamation of a new doctrine, but was merely and announcement of an article of faith true from the very beginning, and publicly defined only in order to make the dogma clear to all and to be believed as part of the deposit of faith left to the Church.

Most Reverend Lois Lavoroire Morrow, S.T.D., Bishop of Kinsnagar, My Catholic Faith, 1963, My Mission House, Kenosha, Wisconson

 

[rjdellinger]

You are correct in your belief that future popes cannot change any doctrine/dogma declared ex-cathedra by previous popes. As far as the Anti-christ and Anti-pope are concerned, just a few days ago I have come across a very interesting website that claims to be Catholic doctrine concerning the end times. This website claims that during the end times an anti-pope will be invalidly elected and will lead may faithful astray by doing exactly what you stated in your original posting (thread).

The webpage www.enddays.ws/antichri.html explains how the Anti-christ will rise. This website www.enddays.ws goes into great detail what they (at this point, I don’t know who “they” are) believe will occur during the last days. Later today I will be posting a new thread to open discussion on the enddays website since, at this point in time, I am neutral in my view/opinion of their views.

 

[love-bias]

I’ve realized something about the Pope’s power of infallibility:
it is God-given. And who in particular gave it to him? Jesus Christ did! Indeed, God the Son gave him this power. (Said another way, his infallibility is “Jesus Christ-given.”)

So… in acknowledging God-given infallibility, the Pope is simultaneously acknowledging the divinity of Jesus Christ. (Or else, by who’s authority is a man proclamed infallible?)

And “the”/any Antichrist can’t/won’t acknowledge the divinity of Jesus Christ.

–sounds good to me. Comments?

 

[Matt16_18]

love-bias:

Comments?