Can God be proven more subjectively or objectively?

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OrdinaryMelkite

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I put this question by accident on the Social Justice forum------needless to say, did not get a lot of responses. My mistake.
To ask again------

Can God be more proved “objectively”----what I call the “Thomas Aquinas way,”----

Or can He be proved more “subjectively,”------what I call the “Soren Kierkegaard way.”

What is the “better” way? I see merit in both sides----but what is the more “convincing?”

Hope I get some answers this time. :):p:D:o
 
The existence of God can’t be proven, it’s a leap of faith.
 
Tomcmaj said:
If God is “proven”, what happens to faith?
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God did not create us with wisdom, intellect, and reason just to hang our hat on a belief that is solely faith driven without proofs that can be seen with wisdom, intellect and reason. We use proofs and faith togather, one not excluding the other.

OP: Objectively. Aquinas, all the way.
 
OrdinaryMelkite said:
I put this question by accident on the Social Justice forum------needless to say, did not get a lot of responses. My mistake.
To ask again------

Can God be more proved “objectively”----what I call the “Thomas Aquinas way,”----

Or can He be proved more “subjectively,”------what I call the “Soren Kierkegaard way.”

What is the “better” way? I see merit in both sides----but what is the more “convincing?”

Hope I get some answers this time. :):p:D:o
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I think it is a mistake for man (finite being) to believe that he can somehow “prove” God (an infinite being). Since God is greater than all science, etc., scientific method is insufficient to “prove” God.
 
Regarding whether the existence of God can be proven by natural reason alone, consider this canon from the First Vatican Council.

“1. If anyone says that the one, true God, our creator and lord, cannot be known with certainty from the things that have been made, by the natural light of human reason: let him be anathema.”

ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/V1.htm#5

I should point out that anathema statements from old ecumenical councils no longer have canonical force, but the truth of the teaching remains.

Regarding the original question, I have not made a great study of this subject but it seems as though Catholic teaching and the most exalted Catholic theologians (like St. Thomas Aquinas) have mainly followed lines of reasoning the OP calls “objective”.
 
Aelred_Minor said:
Regarding whether the existence of God can be proven by natural reason alone, consider this canon from the First Vatican Council.

“1. If anyone says that the one, true God, our creator and lord, cannot be known with certainty from the things that have been made, by the natural light of human reason: let him be anathema.”

ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/V1.htm#5

I should point out that anathema statements from old ecumenical councils no longer have canonical force, but the truth of the teaching remains.

Regarding the original question, I have not made a great study of this subject but it seems as though Catholic teaching and the most exalted Catholic theologians (like St. Thomas Aquinas) have mainly followed lines of reasoning the OP calls “objective”.
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Thanks for that, AelredMinor. 👍
 
Scoobyshme said:
I think it is a mistake for man (finite being) to believe that he can somehow “prove” God (an infinite being). Since God is greater than all science, etc., scientific method is insufficient to “prove” God.
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So, ultimately----“subjective.”

That is what I tend to think, too.

What I mena by "subjective is more like “known,” actually, not “proven.”
 
Trevor_Stamm said:
God did not create us with wisdom, intellect, and reason just to hang our hat on a belief that is solely faith driven without proofs that can be seen with wisdom, intellect and reason. We use proofs and faith togather, one not excluding the other.

OP: Objectively. Aquinas, all the way.
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Good post.
 
OrdinaryMelkite said:
So, ultimately----“subjective.”

That is what I tend to think, too.

What I mena by "subjective is more like “known,” actually, not “proven.”
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Yes. For example, I “know” that my wife loves me. Can I prove it objectively? No. But, do I really “know?” Yes, without a doubt.
 
OrdinaryMelkite said:
Can God be more proved “objectively”----what I call the “Thomas Aquinas way,”----

Or can He be proved more “subjectively,”------what I call the “Soren Kierkegaard way.”

What is the “better” way? I see merit in both sides----but what is the more “convincing?”
Click to expand...
I am not sure which one the following applies to more, but scientific method and analysis has been the most convincing in my understanding.

I prove His Existence through the Evidence He Offered based on the Greatest Desires of Man.
Scientific Method
Question: What is the Best way to achieve the greatest culmination of peace, happiness, and longevity?

Hypothesis paraphrased by me based on the Greatest Commandment
“Always be patient and kind motivated by something* greater than, but not denying, the self, others, authority, and material (i.e. money) combined.”
*I chose to use “something” for scientific purposes. If there is “something” that originated this principle other than God or Jesus from the “stories” of the Bible, please let me know so I can give proper credit.

Experimentation
Variables
  1. Patience vs Impatience
  2. Kindness vs Meanness
  3. Always vs Sometimes vs Never
  4. Motivation of God versus Any combination of the following - Self, Others, Spouse, Parents, Employer, Money, Career, Health, Appearance, Publicity, Nature, Wildlife, Art, Technology, and others.
Data Analysis - What are the qualities of the peace, happiness, and/or longevity of All perspectives affected by a thought/action?
  1. Any moment I am impatient or mean, my thoughts immediately lose peace and happiness, and my actions assist others in losing their peace and happiness.
    2a. Though using a single source of motivation other than God usually generated greater peace and happiness from the motivation’s perspective, it normally hurt the quality of peace and happiness in one or more of the others.
    2b. Though using certain combinations of motivations yielded great success in peace, happiness, and/or longevity, they were limited by some means (mental energy, physical energy, exhaustible resource).
    2c. Being motivated for God is the best because God is All-Considerate and Inexhaustible. Plus, I will hopefully get the added bonus of Eternal Happiness and Peace, none of the others can even offer this.
Conclusion
The best/only way to achieve the greatest culmination of peace, happiness, and longevity is to Always be Patient and Kind for/through God. The greatest commandment is Valid, therefore God is Valid!

Please share your harsh critiques of my thoughts, as well as whether you think it is more “objective” or “subjective.”

Thank you very much for your time and consideration. Your question has helped me grow greatly in faith and understanding.
 
I’m not sure which is more easily proven but unless God is proven to a person subjectively, then they’ll never truly believe in any case.
 
jochoa said:
I am not sure which one the following applies to more, but scientific method and analysis has been the most convincing in my understanding.

I prove His Existence through the Evidence He Offered based on the Greatest Desires of Man.
Scientific Method
Question: What is the Best way to achieve the greatest culmination of peace, happiness, and longevity?

Hypothesis paraphrased by me based on the Greatest Commandment
“Always be patient and kind motivated by something* greater than, but not denying, the self, others, authority, and material (i.e. money) combined.”
*I chose to use “something” for scientific purposes. If there is “something” that originated this principle other than God or Jesus from the “stories” of the Bible, please let me know so I can give proper credit.

Experimentation
Variables
  1. Patience vs Impatience
  2. Kindness vs Meanness
  3. Always vs Sometimes vs Never
  4. Motivation of God versus Any combination of the following - Self, Others, Spouse, Parents, Employer, Money, Career, Health, Appearance, Publicity, Nature, Wildlife, Art, Technology, and others.
Data Analysis - What are the qualities of the peace, happiness, and/or longevity of All perspectives affected by a thought/action?
  1. Any moment I am impatient or mean, my thoughts immediately lose peace and happiness, and my actions assist others in losing their peace and happiness.
    2a. Though using a single source of motivation other than God usually generated greater peace and happiness from the motivation’s perspective, it normally hurt the quality of peace and happiness in one or more of the others.
    2b. Though using certain combinations of motivations yielded great success in peace, happiness, and/or longevity, they were limited by some means (mental energy, physical energy, exhaustible resource).
    2c. Being motivated for God is the best because God is All-Considerate and Inexhaustible. Plus, I will hopefully get the added bonus of Eternal Happiness and Peace, none of the others can even offer this.
Conclusion
The best/only way to achieve the greatest culmination of peace, happiness, and longevity is to Always be Patient and Kind for/through God. The greatest commandment is Valid, therefore God is Valid!

Please share your harsh critiques of my thoughts, as well as whether you think it is more “objective” or “subjective.”

Thank you very much for your time and consideration. Your question has helped me grow greatly in faith and understanding.
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I agree with you. Good job. :clapping:
 
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