Can God be surprised?

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He would not be God because he would not be omniscient. This thread alludes to Open Theism of which there are many forms. All false. God sees time in a continum. He even knows what would have happened had a particular action not been taken. Therefore, even though he threatened Ninevah with destruction in very clear terms the people’s repentence, of which the warning was directed, brought about a different outcome, a different path, which he knew no less than the path they were on before they repented. If he did not know the new path as well as the old he would be forever experiementing until he got the desired outcome. This is a false God.
 
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katieq:
Ang,
but this is suggesting that God is bound by time, rather than a creator of it…
Peace,
k
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K,
You started and interesting thought, could you expand on it? What part of what post were you refering to when you said “this is suggesting…”?

When God created his universe and populated it with freewill beings his relationship to time became rather complicated.
 
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Angainor:
I think so.
The Lord saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The Lord was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain…but Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord. Genesis 6:5-8

Then the word of the Lord came to Samuel: “I am grieved that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions.” 1 Samuel 15:10-11
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We must keep in mind that such passages of Scripture are highly anthropomorphic. God is not “literally” grieved since God does not literally have emotions. Emotions require change and since God is purely Actual Being, God is without change. All of our language about God, including biblical language, is analogical according to St. Thomas. We must always realize that any “human” ways of speaking about God are never literally true.
 
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Angainor:
In that “eternal time” before God created the universe there was nothing, right? There was no Adam, no Eve, no Earth, no light, and even no time. God is master of time and exists outside of it.

In this “eternal time” before God created the universe, did God know if a non-existant Eve would eat the non-existant forbidden fruit?
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That is a fascinating question. Does God have “middle knowledge?” Or, in other words, does God know possibles? I don’t have the answer to that, probably no one does except the saints in heaven. But now I feel the urge to get out my copy of the Summa Theologica and see what St. Thomas says :).
 
Perhaps one thing to keep in mind is that all things are eternally present to God. For God there is no past or future. The future has already happened for God since it is presently happening without end for God. This is how Scripture can speak of the “lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world” and how Christ’s sacrifice on the cross is perpetuated at Mass. At Mass, the one sacrifice of Christ, eternally present to God, is made present for us. St. Paul said that he could not speak of what he saw when carried to the “third heaven.” I suggest that this is because when we see God “face to face,” all of our images and thoughts about what God and eternity are like will be shown to be wholly inadequate.
 
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california_girl:
But don’t you think God might like a surprise every now and then? I don’t see how He can be surprised while He knows everything, but I think surprises make life more fun. Of course, I don’t know the mind of God…

Thank you for your ideas so far, and I will look forward to hearing more of them. 🙂
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God is infinitely blessed already, so He cannot become more happy or blessed. So He cannot be made happy by surprises; as the capacity for surprise implies that the person surprised is not infinitely wise 🙂 To be surprised, implies that one is lacking in knowledge or wisdom or happiness - but God is the Cause & Source of all of these good things, just as of all others.​

To be surprised also implies that God is not fully actualised - but God is Infinitely Active: He has, so to speak, no untapped reserves of Being or Activity - He is utterly & totally active, utterly living; He is unlimited Being. So He can’t be more fully alive, active, or blessed than He is. So He cannot become happier. There is nothing in God to become what it is not, so there is no change in God - there is “merely” (!) infinite Divine Life & Love & Joy. God is too Living, Good, Blessed, Almighty, All-wise, Active - IOW, infinite & eternal in every perfection - to be capable of improvement, or change: or surprise 🙂

The perfection of God’s Life may sound like a huge yawn to us - but that is because we are trying to carry over into the perfect Life of God the incomplete perfection of our own life. We are incomplete - so we need to change, if we are to grow up into the full likeness to Christ we are meant to have. So we are capable of surprise. God, Who lacks nothing, is incapable of growth or change - for growth is needed only by what is imperfect and is a body. God being perfect, and being Spirit, & not a bodily being, is beyond surprise. ##
 
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amateurthomist:
That is a fascinating question. Does God have “middle knowledge?” Or, in other words, does God know possibles? I don’t have the answer to that, probably no one does except the saints in heaven. But now I feel the urge to get out my copy of the Summa Theologica and see what St. Thomas says :).
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The answer to this depends on whether God can be said to know that which is without being. And on whether God’s knowledge is creative. (That way lies Calvinism, I think :)) Yet if God’s knowledge is not creative, how does one maintain the simplicity of God ? It’s beginning to look as though the “middle knowledge” is required for a doctrine which preserves the simplicity of the Divine knowing, if one is not to find oneself being a good Thomist & arguing for Calvinism 😃​

Which is paradoxical - but then, theology is crammed with paradoxes.

Since creation is bringing what has being out of that-which-is-not, it is creation of what is without being, so that it may have being.

So that it does seem that God can know that which is without being.

Which is how God can be said to know “future” contingents - which are by definition hypothetical entities; which presupposes that they “are” possibles. Possibles as such have no being, until they are created - but this does not stop them being in the mind of God: if it did, predestination would not be possible either; but there are people who are predestined - more especially Christ. Their presence in the Mind of God does not imply that there is anything potential in God, nor that His Ideas are gods themselves.

Perhaps creation is what confers reality on possibles, so that from being possibly possible they become really possible.

Since God is simple in His knowing, the above is probably garbage.

No wonder Late Scholasticism before the Reformation came up with the idea of a “hidden” knowledge of God. ##
 
Gottle of Geer:
Which is how God can be said to know “future” contingents - which are by definition hypothetical entities; which presupposes that they “are” possibles. Possibles as such have no being, until they are created - but this does not stop them being in the mind of God
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It seems to me that something that is in the mind of God enjoys a certian level of existance. God knows about it. It seems to me that God’s knowledge is somewhat more concrete than say, my knowledge.

I deny that God has any middle knowledge. In that “eternal time” before God created the universe there was nothing. Eve did not exist. More to the point, Eve’s will did not exist. I believe in freewill. I also believe that a will has to exist first and have an opportunity to assert itself before any question can be answered about how that will would behave in a given situation.

To answer my own question “In this “eternal time” before God created the universe, did God know if a non-existant Eve would eat the non-existant forbidden fruit?” I say no. I do not count this as a strike against God’s omniscince. God knows everything there is to know. In the “eternal time” before God created the universe, Eve’s will did not exist, so there is nothing to know about Eve’s decision regarding a non-existant forbidden fruit.
 
Would this be like saying that God has a sense of humor? I guess it’s hard to tell. :confused:
 
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Angainor:
It seems to me that something that is in the mind of God enjoys a certian level of existance. God knows about it. It seems to me that God’s knowledge is somewhat more concrete than say, my knowledge.

I deny that God has any middle knowledge. In that “eternal time” before God created the universe there was nothing. Eve did not exist. More to the point, Eve’s will did not exist. I believe in freewill. I also believe that a will has to exist first and have an opportunity to assert itself before any question can be answered about how that will would behave in a given situation.

To answer my own question “In this “eternal time” before God created the universe, did God know if a non-existant Eve would eat the non-existant forbidden fruit?” I say no. I do not count this as a strike against God’s omniscince. God knows everything there is to know. In the “eternal time” before God created the universe, Eve’s will did not exist, so there is nothing to know about Eve’s decision regarding a non-existant forbidden fruit.
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Of course, the problem you have here is that God’s knowledge becomes dependent on creation. How can God be dependent on creation in any way? Isn’t scholastic theology fun ? 😃
 
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amateurthomist:
Of course, the problem you have here is that God’s knowledge becomes dependent on creation.
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Is that a problem? God created wills that exist outside his own will, wills that can even oppose his will.
 
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amateurthomist:
Of course, the problem you have here is that God’s knowledge becomes dependent on creation. How can God be dependent on creation in any way?
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We are told God’s knowledge is dependant on his creation.
The Lord saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become. - Genesis 6:5
 
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amateurthomist:
We must keep in mind that such passages of Scripture are highly anthropomorphic. God is not “literally” grieved since God does not literally have emotions. Emotions require change and since God is purely Actual Being, God is without change. All of our language about God, including biblical language, is analogical according to St. Thomas. We must always realize that any “human” ways of speaking about God are never literally true.
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Anthropomorphic language is used to help us understand the nature of God. No, it is not to be taken literally. However, I think it would be a mistake to dismiss these passages as anthropomorphic and thus make them meaningless. The passages are trying to convey truth to us. We should try to discover the general idea that the passages are trying to get across to us.
The Lord saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The Lord was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain…but Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord. Genesis 6:5-8

Then the word of the Lord came to Samuel: “I am grieved that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions.” 1 Samuel 15:10-11
 
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Aureole:
I don’t think He can be surprised, though I’m very sure He can be pleased. I tend to agree with Della, He’s like a parent who wants their errant child to confess.

Now I’m curious as to what would have happened if Adam and Eve just confessed, but that’s an entirely different topic!
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I’ve wondered what if Eve had sinned but Adam had said, “No way!” when she offered him the fruit.

It doesn’t matter, God set everything up to happen just the way it did & then blamed poor Adam & Eve.
 
I’m afraid this poll is theologically absurd.

God is omniscient and outside time. He knows everything that has happened, is happening and will happen.
He allows us free will but never-the-less He knows what we will do. That does not mean, as some people mistakenly think, that because He knows what we are going to do He has made us do it. He created us not as robots, but as creatures with free will, so that we can freely choose to love Him and choose to love all that is good.
 
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california_girl:
Since God is eternal, can He be surprised by our decisions?

He certainly seemed surprised when Adam and Eve ate the apple, or was He?

-emily
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God can’t be surprised because that would violate God-ness, so to speak. That would mean that He would have created something which is independent of Himself, to that extent, and to that extent another God.

God can’t create a competitor. That is a square circle.

He wasn’t surprised when Adam and Eve sinned because that story is a hypothetical which teaches theology. In that story, for instance, God unsuccessfully attempts to match lonely Adam up with animals, before getting the Eve idea. In other words, in the story, God is stupid. Is God stupid? Of course not.
 
I doubt God would lie to His beloved. When He spoke of dying after eating from the tree, He didn’t mean that they would die right away. I think He meant that they would lose eternal life on earth and would have to wait to be saved before being able to live fully with God.
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I believe the reason He may have left the tree unguarded because He wanted to give us the chance to make our own decisions. I mean, He gave us a free will, so why not allow us to use it? 😃
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O.K. but, given the words used in the text, he gives no indication that the threat of death was a metaphor, or a prolonged punishment…I can see it both ways…if not a lie, certainly deceptive. And for the free will, this argument makes no sense because there is no will, he knew we would eat and be punished by definition of your argument…so deceptions and setups then?
Or could it be that the miraculous nature of free will is that no one can forsee what it will bring? And THAT is why we are constantly in need of further instruction. Even the term “all knowing” only implies a knowledge of everything that there is to know, and an uncommited act is not an event, and therefore unknown and unknowable concept. He obviously knows right after an event…makes Adam and Eve confess, and then Cain…but if he set that in motion deliberately and knew what would happen, that would make god Abel’s killer by conspiracy. And why bother giving pharoh a chance to release Moses and the jews, if God knew that it was pointless?
 
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didymus:
I’ve wondered what if Eve had sinned but Adam had said, “No way!” when she offered him the fruit.

It doesn’t matter, God set everything up to happen just the way it did & then blamed poor Adam & Eve.
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There are many situations where I wonder “what if”. I can’t even comprehend some of the silly things that have been done in the past, so I am constantly wondering things of “what if”. It’s probably just a part of our human nature, but I’d like to know some of the answers to the “what ifs”. I know it’s not important, I’m simply curious.

And I wouldn’t say God blamed Adam and Eve, they sinned out of their own free will, God merely punished them as any good parent would.
 
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