Can God change His mind?

[danxt]

First post here… Short background… I am a devout Catholic and am heavily involved in the teen ministry at my parish.

This is a question I’ve been pondering over for a few weeks now, and have not resolved it yet.

I recently came to the conscious awareness that God’s will is unchangeable, thanks to a talk I heard by Dr. Scott Hahn. This makes sense to me, and I have found new devotion in my prayers to simply conform my will to His, rather than trying to change His will.

However I am having trouble resolving this concept with the story of Sodom in Genesis 18 where God was going to destroy the city until Abraham “convinced” Him not to.

To me, it seems that either God’s will was changed by Abraham’s pleading, or God never intended to destroy the city to begin with. If He never intended to destroy the city, does that mean that God was deceiving Abraham? If so, this would also seem contrary to God’s very nature.

Is there a possibility that I am not seeing? Can you help me to make sense of these seemingly conflicting concepts?

 

[Scoobyshme]

First post here… Short background… I am a devout Catholic and am heavily involved in the teen ministry at my parish.

This is a question I’ve been pondering over for a few weeks now, and have not resolved it yet.

I recently came to the conscious awareness that God’s will is unchangeable, thanks to a talk I heard by Dr. Scott Hahn. This makes sense to me, and I have found new devotion in my prayers to simply conform my will to His, rather than trying to change His will.

However I am having trouble resolving this concept with the story of Sodom in Genesis 18 where God was going to destroy the city until Abraham “convinced” Him not to.

To me, it seems that either God’s will was changed by Abraham’s pleading, or God never intended to destroy the city to begin with. If He never intended to destroy the city, does that mean that God was deceiving Abraham? If so, this would also seem contrary to God’s very nature.

Is there a possibility that I am not seeing? Can you help me to make sense of these seemingly conflicting concepts?

God doesn’t change His mind. The “changing” is only from man’s blurry view of God. We can only comprehend God through created things and with our weakened intellect (because of Original sin).

We live from moment to moment. God, on the other hand, does not live from moment to moment, but exists in the past, present, and future, simultaneously. Think about that for a moment. God does not “foresee” the future, but “sees” the future as you and I see the present moment. He is already seeing our ultimate end, as well as every moment we live(d) getting there.

 

[smichhertz]

God is immutable. He does not change. He simply always is.

 

[danxt]

I don’t disagree with either of you, but then what happened in the story of Sodom?

 

[James1215]

‘God doesn’t change His mind. The “changing” is only from man’s blurry view of God’

Does that mean we cannot understand God? That Abram was wrong to believe he was in communication with Him, and that the Bible is therefore wrong to present this?

Tricky position! You can see the perspective I’m asking this from, but I think the answer is a whole lot more challenging from within Catholicism, not outside it.

 

[valentino]

not in respect to what He reveals to man.If God reveals a truth to man He never changes that truth.Can God make a plan and change it I would say yes.God didn’t plan on man sinning.But with His infinite knowledge He could already know the outcome of man.Man does a part to play in how God decides to act.We don’t know what vision He had for man before He sinned.Possibly He had no direct plan but waited for man reaction to temptation.But if He did have a plan He definitely had change His mind after man sinned.I believe His plan was always for man to live in Heaven totally in union with God and completely happy.Beyond our understanding.And therefore His plan will still be completed except apparently not for some.

 

[Usagi]

I don’t believe God had to deceive Abraham in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Abraham repeatedly asked if God would spare the cities for the sake of an ever-smaller number of righteous inhabitants. Every time, God said He would spare the cities were that the case. Presumably, there were in fact fewer than ten righteous people in the cities, and so God destroyed them as He had already determined to do.

Of course, by our understanding of an omniscient God, God would already have known that Abraham’s condition was not met. He could, I suppose, have just cut to the chase and said “Abraham, I’m God. I already checked, and your nephew’s family – who are actually gonna do some pretty skeevy things in the next few days themselves – are pretty much the closest thing to righteous those places have. Sorry, but I know best.” Was it deceptive that He did not? Or was he just allowing Abraham to figure out for himself, by his progressive questioning, both how wicked the cities were and how merciful He is – after all, He would have permitted thousands to continue in their terrible sins, which seem to have included gang rape of visiting strangers, to spare the lives of just ten good citizens. Possibly even fewer – we don’t know, because Abraham decided he was pushing his luck and stopped asking at 10.

Realizing that God a) never actually changes His mind and yet b) can include our prayers in His will from the beginning is easier when you think of God as existing outside of space and time, rather than moving along linearly like ourselves. When a farmer prays for rain for his crops, and it does rain, wouldn’t it always have rained? Well, yes, but that doesn’t mean God didn’t take that farmer’s prayer into account when “scheduling” that rain from His eternal perspective.

Usagi

 

[danxt]

Thank you Usagi… that makes a TON of sense.

 

[Ridgerunner]

God’s will is coextensive with His act. So He doesn’t “change His mind”. But He gives us truly free will notwithstanding that He can foresee outcomes. It isn’t difficult to imagine this exchange as being nothing more than a test of Abraham. It’s also possible that He proposed alternative outcomes to Abraham, either of which could turn out to be the one that happened. We really don’t know how God “manages” the outcomes of free will. He is not bound by time, so something that “happened” is still accessible to Him, though not to us. A human might see this as a 'change of mind", when it really isn’t.

 

[Scoobyshme]

‘God doesn’t change His mind. The “changing” is only from man’s blurry view of God’

Does that mean we cannot understand God? That Abram was wrong to believe he was in communication with Him, and that the Bible is therefore wrong to present this?

Tricky position! You can see the perspective I’m asking this from, but I think the answer is a whole lot more challenging from within Catholicism, not outside it.

We cannot fully understand God, because we have finite minds and are trying to wrap those finite minds around the infinite. The best we can do is relate to Who God is, etc., through created things. That’s why we usually point up when referring to heaven and down when referring to hell, for example. Once we die and go to heaven, however, we will be in the beatific vision of God and be able to see Him fully.

 

[Robertanthony]

I don’t believe God had to deceive Abraham in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Abraham repeatedly asked if God would spare the cities for the sake of an ever-smaller number of righteous inhabitants. Every time, God said He would spare the cities were that the case. Presumably, there were in fact fewer than ten righteous people in the cities, and so God destroyed them as He had already determined to do.

Assuredly, indubitably etc.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

First post here… Short background… I am a devout Catholic and am heavily involved in the teen ministry at my parish.

This is a question I’ve been pondering over for a few weeks now, and have not resolved it yet.

I recently came to the conscious awareness that God’s will is unchangeable, thanks to a talk I heard by Dr. Scott Hahn. This makes sense to me, and I have found new devotion in my prayers to simply conform my will to His, rather than trying to change His will.

However I am having trouble resolving this concept with the story of Sodom in Genesis 18 where God was going to destroy the city until Abraham “convinced” Him not to.

To me, it seems that either God’s will was changed by Abraham’s pleading, or God never intended to destroy the city to begin with. If He never intended to destroy the city, does that mean that God was deceiving Abraham? If so, this would also seem contrary to God’s very nature.

Is there a possibility that I am not seeing? Can you help me to make sense of these seemingly conflicting concepts?

See also Exodus 32:14, Jonah 3:10, Numbers 23:19, I Sam 15:29, and Jeremiah 26:13, 19 on this issue.

 

[Boulder257]

Great answer Usagi. Thanks!

 

[PJM]

=danxt;7995972]First post here… Short background… I am a devout Catholic and am heavily involved in the teen ministry at my parish.

This is a question I’ve been pondering over for a few weeks now, and have not resolved it yet.

I recently came to the conscious awareness that God’s will is unchangeable, thanks to a talk I heard by Dr. Scott Hahn. This makes sense to me, and I have found new devotion in my prayers to simply conform my will to His, rather than trying to change His will.

However I am having trouble resolving this concept with the story of Sodom in Genesis 18 where God was going to destroy the city until Abraham “convinced” Him not to.

To me, it seems that either God’s will was changed by Abraham’s pleading, or God never intended to destroy the city to begin with. If He never intended to destroy the city, does that mean that God was deceiving Abraham? If so, this would also seem contrary to God’s very nature.

Is there a possibility that I am not seeing? Can you help me to make sense of these seemingly conflicting concepts?

**A right understanding must be viewed in the wisdom Of Isiah. ** Isa. 55:8-9 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

God’s mind CAN be changed in answer to prayer, sacrifice and good works. BUT God is aware of this BEFORE it happens.

And NO God cannot change His Mind.

This apparent difference of opinion takes into account that God is ALL-KNOWING and is aware BEFORE His mind is made up that so and and so will “cause” a different outcome as God Knows before hand If he will accept the petitions and act favorably on them. Kep in mind that with God; TIME does NOT exist. everything is PRESENT to God.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[NotWorthy]

What if God tends to do this to teach us? Think of the scene in Sodom. Do you think God knew EXACTLY how many righteous were in Sodom? He claims to know the hairs on your head (not exactly hard to do with my head, unfortunately), so its pretty fair to assume He knew there would be less than 10 people in Sodom. And yet He let Abraham “Jew him down”, so to speak.

Maybe he was teaching Abraham (and Biblical readers) that our prayers are efficacious.

Moses discovered this same truth when God threatened to kill all of Israel for worshipping the Golden Calf (Exodus 32 or so) until Moses intervened and asked God to kill Moses instead. God “appeared” to change his mind.

Through Moses and Abraham, billions of Christians have learned the value of praying not just for our own needs, but for the cares of others!

 

[Redbandito]

And yet He let Abraham “Jew him down”, so to speak.

NotWorthy, I know you didn’t do this maliciously. Having grown up with a Jewish family on the paternal side, the phrase “Jew him down” is EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE. Again, I know were just trying to express something, but I hope you will choose NOT to use that phrase in the future. Thanks friend! God bless!

 

[jcrichton]

First post here… Short background… I am a devout Catholic and am heavily involved in the teen ministry at my parish.

This is a question I’ve been pondering over for a few weeks now, and have not resolved it yet.

I recently came to the conscious awareness that God’s will is unchangeable, thanks to a talk I heard by Dr. Scott Hahn. This makes sense to me, and I have found new devotion in my prayers to simply conform my will to His, rather than trying to change His will.

However I am having trouble resolving this concept with the story of Sodom in Genesis 18 where God was going to destroy the city until Abraham “convinced” Him not to.

To me, it seems that either God’s will was changed by Abraham’s pleading, or God never intended to destroy the city to begin with. If He never intended to destroy the city, does that mean that God was deceiving Abraham? If so, this would also seem contrary to God’s very nature.

Is there a possibility that I am not seeing? Can you help me to make sense of these seemingly conflicting concepts?

…welcome to the forum dan!

…first of all, you are correct God does not change His Will… but it gets complicated when we come across Scriptures that seem to imply that He does!

…you have made an error in the issue of Sodom since God did destroy it; the confusion may lie in what developed as Abraham attempts to intercede (something that is Divinely inspired) on behalf of the people; this passage above all shows God’s Willingness to meet us more than half way… Abraham comes down to 10… the problem is that the people that were attempting a righteous existence was Abraham and Lot (and those in their households)… we find a similar exchange, to various degrees, with Moses and others in Scriptures where they intercede on the behalf of others… even though the language in Scriptures seems to indicate a change of Will, I believe that it was God’s intention to provoke man’s intercession on behalf of mankind–a type to the new economy where on of the tasks delegated to the Church is the intercession for humanity (Then he saith to his disciples, The harvest indeed is great, but the labourers are few. 38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he send forth labourers into his harvest.–St. Matthew 9:37-38–DRV); we also see a shadow of this intercession in the passage where the quadriplegic is lowered into the room so that Jesus may heal him–I know I am reaching, somewhat, but this is as close an image as I can offer…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

‘God doesn’t change His mind. The “changing” is only from man’s blurry view of God’

Does that mean we cannot understand God? That Abram was wrong to believe he was in communication with Him, and that the Bible is therefore wrong to present this?

Tricky position! You can see the perspective I’m asking this from, but I think the answer is a whole lot more challenging from within Catholicism, not outside it.

I don’t follow… do you mean that there’s confusion in Catholicism about God or that outside of Catholicism God is clearly understood?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

not in respect to what He reveals to man.If God reveals a truth to man He never changes that truth.Can God make a plan and change it I would say yes.God didn’t plan on man sinning.But with His infinite knowledge He could already know the outcome of man.Man does a part to play in how God decides to act.We don’t know what vision He had for man before He sinned.Possibly He had no direct plan but waited for man reaction to temptation.But if He did have a plan He definitely had change His mind after man sinned.I believe His plan was always for man to live in Heaven totally in union with God and completely happy.Beyond our understanding.And therefore His plan will still be completed except apparently not for some.

…actually, we were chosen in Christ before Creation… so God’s Plan has never waivered–yes inspite of not all gaining Salvation… God’s Salvific Plan is Complete since it never meant to subjugate man’s will to God’s… the fact that many chose to reject God is only a testament to God’s Gift of true freedom (Created in the image and likeness of God) as He respects our decision to choose death rather than Life (Deuteronomy 30:19).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[bogeydogg]

I think a very helpful passage about this is Jonah 3 and 4

6 When the news reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, took off his royal robes, covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust. 7 Then he issued a proclamation in Nineveh: “By the decree of the king and his nobles: Do not let any man or beast, herd or flock, taste anything; do not let them eat or drink. 8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. 9 Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.” 10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened.

So the question is did God mean it when He said he would destroy the city or not. Keep in mind there is no way God could say he would and know He did not intend to as that would be a formal untruth and therefore a lie. So He had to mean it and yet did not do it but never changed His mind. So what gives. The answer is in Jonah 4

1 But Jonah was greatly displeased and became angry. 2 He prayed to the LORD, "O LORD, is this not what I said when I was still at home? That is why I was so quick to flee to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity.

Jonah knew that God would destroy the city if it did not repent as is obvious in that he attempted to assure they would not repent by fleeing. However Jonah also knew that, even though He had not said so, there is an implied “Unless you repent” ellipse to every statement of judgment and an implied “Unless you fail to do thus and so…” ellipse to every statement of blessing.

In other words because God is holy He will not/cannot abide our sin and also because God is merciful He extends mercy to an unrepentant world everyday of our lives until the end of time.

So both statements are true.

God intended to destroy Sodom

God was prepared to forgive Sodom for the sake of the intercession of Abraham.

God Bless