Can God create a God more powerful than him?

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Wesrock said:
I disagree with this notion. If it becomes a disruption to productive discussion and just harassment that’s one thing. But a former Catholic asking questions about a faith he may have many misunderstandings of…?

Well, he might not be convinced and he might remain highly skeptical, but it doesn’t seem like a bad thing.
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👍

When people inquire about our faith we should be prepared to give an answer.
 
No. The whole concept of God is an un-created being. Hence the question is a contradiction or asked to mess with people’s head.
 
For those asking why I would ask such a question and it’s a childish one, this is a philosophy forum, I’m interested to know your answers on the subject without ridiculing it, I’m in no intention of disrespecting any of you and I’m not willing or interested in changing anyone’s beliefs.
The forum has a nice design, where I can be involved in contradicting views and it says everyone can join not just Catholics.
 
Wesrock said:
God is said to be omnipotent not because He can do the illogical or because we’re attributing to Him some arbitrary level of power, but because He is the First Cause of all things that are and all things that could possibly be. He Himself is the only eternal being of pure actuality (Refer to Aristotle’s First Cause argument and Thomas Aquinas’ Argument From Motion/Change).

Suppose that God could create a being more powerful than Himself. This second being therefore does not exist of His own intrinsic necessity, but is dependent on God for His existence. A consequence of that is that this being was something that God could potentially have not created but chose to actualize, which means that this being is not a being of pure acuality. Furthermore, this second being is is not the First Cause of all things that are and all things that could possibly be, but is limited to being a secondary cause. So if omnipotence is being the First Cause of all things that are and all things that could possibly be, this second being is not omnipotent, it becomes nonsensical to declare this second being to be “more powerful” than God.

Therefore, God cannot create another being more powerful than Himself.
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So can God for exp. create another god, in another universe to rule that is independant from the original god’s existence, it may be like a father creating a son and making sure that his son would be powerful even more powerful than him and also independent.
 
ANV said:
So can God for exp. create another god, in another universe to rule that is independant from the original god’s existence, it may be like a father creating a son and making sure that his son would be powerful even more powerful than him and also independent.
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God by definition cannot be dependent on the existence or creative act of another being for his existence. Such a being is not God. This was explained to you in the post you have just responded to.

Can God’s creation be more powerful than him?

I would say no because God is the source of all power. Things exist by the power of God so it just doesn’t make sense to think that a created thing can have more power than God. Without God’s power all contingent beings will cease to exist.
 
ANV said:
So can God for exp. create another god, in another universe to rule that is independant from the original god’s existence, it may be like a father creating a son and making sure that his son would be powerful even more powerful than him and also independent.
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I’m going to refer to this second “God” as a Demiurge, as that seems like the most appropriate word to use and to avoid confusion.

Assume that God creates this Demiurge, and the Demiurge then creates a parallel universe called Gaia. What is the First Cause of everything in Gaia? You might be tempted to attribute this to the Demiurge, but the Demiurge is himself not uncaused, correct? The Demiurge’s existence is thus caused by God, such that God remains the First Cause of all things in Gaia and, indeed, anywhere, whatever parallel realities there are. The Demiurge is still not the First Cause of all things that are and could possibly be. While immensely powerful, he is not omnipotent for that reason. The Demiurge’s causal power remains derivative from God causing his existence, and so the Demiurge remains a secondary or instrumental cause of the things he does.

I’ve referred to the First Cause argument, but if you are familiar with the argument from composite things or from contingency, those would apply to here as well. God is not simply a most powerful being among other beings. While He is most powerful, that’s not the reason we call Him God per se.
 
ANV said:
So can God for exp. create another god, in another universe to rule that is independant from the original god’s existence, it may be like a father creating a son and making sure that his son would be powerful even more powerful than him and also independent.
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The cause is always greater than the effect, as it produces the effect and yet also has its own separate existence. No effect is equal to or greater than its cause.

Also, when we say “God,” we are speaking of the measure of nobility, greatness, power, etc. So there is no conceptual possibility of anything “greater than” God, just as there is nothing “more north” than the North Pole. (These attributes follow from God’s primacy and simplicity.)

Mull that over for a bit, and the difficulty should disappear.
 
IWantGod said:
God by definition cannot be dependent on the existence or creative act of another being for his existence. Such a being is not God. This was explained to you in the post you have just responded to.

Can God’s creation be more powerful than him?

I would say no because God is the source of all power. Things exist by the power of God so it just doesn’t make sense to think that a created thing can have more power than God. Without God’s power all contingent beings will cease to exist.
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Wesrock said:
I’m going to refer to this second “God” as a Demiurge, as that seems like the most appropriate word to use and to avoid confusion.

Assume that God creates this Demiurge, and the Demiurge then creates a parallel universe called Gaia. What is the First Cause of everything in Gaia? You might be tempted to attribute this to the Demiurge, but the Demiurge is himself not uncaused, correct? The Demiurge’s existence is thus caused by God, such that God remains the First Cause of all things in Gaia and, indeed, anywhere, whatever parallel realities there are. The Demiurge is still not the First Cause of all things that are and could possibly be. While immensely powerful, he is not omnipotent for that reason. The Demiurge’s causal power remains derivative from God causing his existence, and so the Demiurge remains a secondary or instrumental cause of the things he does.

I’ve referred to the First Cause argument, but if you are familiar with the argument from composite things or from contingency, those would apply to here as well. God is not simply a most powerful being among other beings. While He is most powerful, that’s not the reason we call Him God per se.
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I would refer to Matthew 5:37 in this one.
“All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.”
I just want to see your simple answer to the question, it is not about god willing or not willing or whether the second god would be dependent and not the first cause.
The question is about whether can he create a being more powerful than him? “can” or “cannot”.
 
ANV said:
I would refer to Matthew 5:37 in this one.
“All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.”
I just want to see your simple answer to the question, it is not about god willing or not willing or whether the second god would be dependent and not the first cause.
The question is about whether can he create a being more powerful than him? “can” or “cannot”.
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No
 
In my previous post, I proposed an example of a Demiurge creating a parallel universe called Gaia. I think I illustrated my point well enough, but my illustration suggested that the Demiurge, while he is clearly not omnipotent and is therefore less in power than God, could still create from nothing. This is not true.

This can be illustrated by noting that a great stretch of potential requires great power. Lead has the potential to be melted into a liquid without exercising much power. Lead does have the potential to be turned into gold as well, but this lies at the extremes of its potentiality and would require a very powerful cause (and lots of energy) to accomplish this (such that we wouldn’t find it economical, but that’s not essential to the point). So, in a sense, the more extreme the potential, the greater the actualizing cause needs to be, and only what is in the cause eminently (or virtually or physically) can make a potential actual. Or more simply, a cause cannot give more than it has the power to cause. And you can imagine this approaching a limit, as the potential approaches zero, the power to actualize that potential approaches infinity.

Now, I don’t mean to put this entirely in mathematical terms, though it might help illustrate the point, but to make actual something from nothing could only be accomplished by something that is actus purus and has no bounds on its actuality–it just is actuality. Nothing else, even the Demiurge, would have sufficient actuality to bring something about from nothing.
 
ANV said:
I would refer to Matthew 5:37 in this one.
“All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.”
I just want to see your simple answer to the question, it is not about god willing or not willing or whether the second god would be dependent and not the first cause.
The question is about whether can he create a being more powerful than him? “can” or “cannot”.
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Matthew 5:37 is about swearing by something to assure honesty. Jesus is saying not to do that as a norm. But point taken. Usually when simple answers are given questions of why follow, or it’s assumed by skeptics to just be an arbitrary and dogmatic answer as opposed to something reasoned.

Can God create a being more powerful than Himself? No.

Can God create a being equal in power with Himself? No.
 
Wesrock said:
Matthew 5:37 is about swearing by something to assure honesty. Jesus is saying not to do that as a norm. But point taken. Usually when simple answers are given questions of why follow, or it’s assumed by skeptics to just be an arbitrary and dogmatic answer as opposed to something reasoned.

Can God create a being more powerful than Himself? No.

Can God create a being equal in power with Himself? No.
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That’s right that verse in context was about swearing.

This is how I see it:

If he can’t that means he isn’t all powerful.
If he can that means he is all powerful.

But once willing to do so he wouldn’t remain the most powerful but he would still be all powerful, untill the secondary God uses his extra powers to decrease the original God’s power.
So if the answer was no, that means he isn’t all powerful.
If the answer was yes, that means he is all powerful, until he puts that will into action. But maybe some other thing to consider would be the time.
 
ANV said:
That’s right that verse in context was about swearing.

This is how I see it:

If he can’t that means he isn’t all powerful.
If he can that means he is all powerful…
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Well, you clearly have a different definition of what it means to be omnipotent since your definition includes doing the metaphysically impossible. Haven’t you been reading the responses?
 
ANV said:
Can God create a God more powerful than Him?
🤷
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Yes, He can.
By doing nothing - sheer inactivity. A God who never acts can be classified as impotent.

Example - If God creates a being who can beat everyone else in an arm wrestling competition, how would we know whether they can also defeat God unless God shows up to compete?
 
God could also create a rock which He couldn’t lift.

Can you lift the universe? Which direction is ‘up’?
 
ANV said:
That’s right that verse in context was about swearing.

This is how I see it:

If he can’t that means he isn’t all powerful.
If he can that means he is all powerful.

But once willing to do so he wouldn’t remain the most powerful but he would still be all powerful, untill the secondary God uses his extra powers to decrease the original God’s power.
So if the answer was no, that means he isn’t all powerful.
If the answer was yes, that means he is all powerful, until he puts that will into action. But maybe some other thing to consider would be the time.
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I already presented omnipotence as being the First Cause of all things that are and are possible, and this is how it’s been classically understood amongst the majority of Christian theologians throughout history. I would regard any “greater” definition of omnipotence as being a nonsensical property. Your objection doesn’t undermine anything of value or any claim I would make about God, and I’m concerned you haven’t read my prior posts.

e_c made a valid point about your question on God’s power not being a numerical value but more comparable with asking if something can be further north than the north pole. And I still get the impression you’re thinking of God as being comparable to something like a non-corporeal Zeus.
 
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