Can God Do Something Totally Contradictory?

[tonsofquestions]

In another thread, we began discussing why Jesus, if, as God, He knew everything, would claim He did not know everything, and some people said it was a mystery, that had to be accepted on faith. I think it is illogical for God to be able to do something contradictory. For example, I believe God could part the Red Sea if He wanted to. Even though I couldn’t understand it, I would believe He could do it. However, I don’t believe God could part the Red Sea while also not parting it, anymore than Jesus could know everything while still not knowing everything. Is this true? Could God, if he wanted to, part the Red Sea while still not parting it? I know it’s a strange question, but I’m thinking about this seriously, if God can do anything, can He do something that totally contradicts itself? If you think this is a stupid question, just don’t respond, don’t tell me what a stupid question it is. I’d like a Church teaching too, but I don’t know if there is one on this subject. Thanks!

 

[cpayne]

I do not think God can do anything totally contradictory. However, the specific example about Jesus is not contradictory.

If we were to say, “Jesus as God has perfect knowledge” and “Jesus as God does not have perfect knowledge,” that would be contradictory. However, that is not what is claimed. What is claimed is “Jesus as God in his divine Person has perfect knowledge” and “Jesus as a human being had to grow in knowledge like other human beings.”

The “mystery” is not regarding these knowledge claims, but rather how one Person can have two natures.

 

[tonsofquestions]

I do not think God can do anything totally contradictory. However, the specific example about Jesus is not contradictory.

If we were to say, “Jesus as God has perfect knowledge” and “Jesus as God does not have perfect knowledge,” that would be contradictory. However, that is not what is claimed. What is claimed is “Jesus as God in his divine Person has perfect knowledge” and “Jesus as a human being had to grow in knowledge like other human beings.”

The “mystery” is not regarding these knowledge claims, but rather how one Person can have two natures.

Thanks for your response. I’d still love to hear the Catholic position on this.

Though I don’t want to get bogged down in another discussion about Jesus’ perfect knowledge, which I already did in another thread, I do want to ask this. You say you don’t think God can do anything that totally contradicts itself. Wouldn’t someone being human and Divine totally contradict itself as well? If so, please explain how God can do something that totally contradicts itself. If you don’t think being human and divine totally contradicts itself, please explain why.

 

[Binary]

The answer to your question is that not all questions are valid. In other words, not all collections of words make sense, even if they appear to at first. By definition, a contradiction is not something that can exist. If two premises are contradictory, at least one of them must be false.

 

[Binary]

As for Christ being fully man and fully God, I have an answer, but I’m not sure it’s the correct Catholic one. I would say that it is possible that the two natures do not overlap, in the same way that a toothpick can be completely tan and completely made of wood.

 

[1ke]

No, God can’t do something contradictory, because he can’t do a non-thing like make a square triangle. By definition a square has 4 sides and by definition a triangle has 3. So, such “contradiction” type scenarios are bogus.

As to the specific question-- which we went round and round on several days ago-- what you perceive to be a contradiction is not. It is only because you are trying to take the words literally and apply your own meaning to them that they appear so.

Jesus is God, therefore he knows everything.

Jesus said “The Son does not know the hour”. Since we know Jesus is God, we know he was not speaking literally.

Of course in his divinity he knew everything. But in his humanity, his knowledge was limited. And, because he is human and divine he can truthfull say he doesn’t know, human speaking, while simultaneously having divine knowledge of everything.

Your problem is not with a contradictory God but with your understanding of Scripture and Church teaching.

 

[1ke]

Wouldn’t someone being human and Divine totally contradict itself as well?

No. Why do you think it would?

 

[promethius]

Thanks for your response. I’d still love to hear the Catholic position on this.

Though I don’t want to get bogged down in another discussion about Jesus’ perfect knowledge, which I already did in another thread, I do want to ask this. You say you don’t think God can do anything that totally contradicts itself. Wouldn’t someone being human and Divine totally contradict itself as well? If so, please explain how God can do something that totally contradicts itself. If you don’t think being human and divine totally contradicts itself, please explain why.

How could having two natures be contradictory? You yourself have a duality in that you have a temporal body and an imortal soul. Jesus, likewise, was possessed of a temporal body with human nature, and a Divinity as well. That is not a contradiction.

It is also not a contradiction to see that Christ in His human capacity would not have had an exact timeline of events, but rather a knowledge that they would occur. God is outside of time, and as such, all events which happen in our timeline occur in one moment before God. Thus it is possible for Jesus in His divine nature to know that events would happen because He could see the entire timeline of man, but that in His human nature He would not sort our a chronology of events since He was viewing everything from a “timeless” perspective wilst still in human perception… and as we all know, the idea of existing without time is something that we can abstract but never understand… as such, Jesus in His human nature would have seen an event coming, but not have been able to speak of when exactly that event would occur.

 

[anEvilAtheist]

No, God can’t do something contradictory, because he can’t do a non-thing like make a square triangle. By definition a square has 4 sides and by definition a triangle has 3. So, such “contradiction” type scenarios are bogus.

In our experience, nothing can be fully a four sided shape and fully a three sided shape at the same time just like someone cannot be fully God and fully man, but how do we know this is impossible? Maybe it only seems impossible because in our very limited experience something can only have one specific number of sides at one time. Maybe not only do invisible unicorns exist, but invisible pink unicorns exist. I’m not trying to offend, I just thought this was a point worth raising.

 

[tonsofquestions]

No. Why do you think it would?

Well, I had thought humans, by their very nature, were limited, and God, by His very nature, was infinite. Is that understanding incorrect?

 

[tonsofquestions]

No, God can’t do something contradictory, because he can’t do a non-thing like make a square triangle. By definition a square has 4 sides and by definition a triangle has 3. So, such “contradiction” type scenarios are bogus.

As to the specific question-- which we went round and round on several days ago-- what you perceive to be a contradiction is not. It is only because you are trying to take the words literally and apply your own meaning to them that they appear so.

Jesus is God, therefore he knows everything.

Jesus said “The Son does not know the hour”. Since we know Jesus is God, we know he was not speaking literally.

Of course in his divinity he knew everything. But in his humanity, his knowledge was limited. And, because he is human and divine he can truthfull say he doesn’t know, human speaking, while simultaneously having divine knowledge of everything.

Your problem is not with a contradictory God but with your understanding of Scripture and Church teaching.

One thing I will say(and I’m irritated with myself for bringing our other discussion into this one) but he said only the Father knows, so that would rule out the Holy Spirit as well, since Jesus said only the Father(as in one person of the trinity), not only God(which would encompass all three Persons). And since the Holy Spirit does not have a human nature, and is not limited by any kind of humanity, it would seem that He was not all knowing either. Now, that still doesn’t solve the fact that Jesus may not have been speaking literally, and I may be misunderstanding Jesus’ meaning, which is the response I got on the other thread, but I’m simply answering that your argument above about Jesus’ human nature doesn’t really apply, as the Holy Spirit is excluded from this knowledge as well, if the passage is taken literally.

 

[1ke]

if the passage is taken literally.

Which it shouldn’t be, because he was not speaking literally. Jesus revealed his divinity over time to the Apostles. He revealed the concept of the Trinity to them over time. And, if you want to get really technical, he could correctly say “only the Father knows” while simultaneously He and the Holy Spirit also knew, because they know as One in their divinity.

Jesus alternately spoke humanly and divinely throughout the Gospels. He said in one place “the Father is greater than I” and in another he said, “the Father and I are one.” He was speaking humanly in the former and divinely in the latter. He did this all the time. And, then after he ascended, he sent the Holy Spirit to illuminate their minds fully to the truth of the Trinity via infused knowledge.

 

[tonsofquestions]

Which it shouldn’t be, because he was not speaking literally. Jesus revealed his divinity over time to the Apostles. He revealed the concept of the Trinity to them over time. And, if you want to get really technical, he could correctly say “only the Father knows” while simultaneously He and the Holy Spirit also knew, because they know as One in their divinity.

Jesus alternately spoke humanly and divinely throughout the Gospels. He said in one place “the Father is greater than I” and in another he said, “the Father and I are one.” He was speaking humanly in the former and divinely in the latter. He did this all the time. And, then after he ascended, he sent the Holy Spirit to illuminate their minds fully to the truth of the Trinity via infused knowledge.

I know that the Catholic teaching is that the passage is not to be taken literally, (which is why I stopped posting on the other thread, because there was nowhere else to take the discussion)and I said that my argument was null and void if the passage is not taken literally. My only point was that the argument about Jesus’ humanity wasn’t really important.

However, please answer my other question. Aren’t humans, by their very nature, finite, and God by His very nature, infinite? Do I understand that correctly?

 

[1ke]

However, please answer my other question. Aren’t humans, by their very nature, finite, and God by His very nature, infinite? Do I understand that correctly?

Human *nature *is finite. Divine *nature *is infinite.

Jesus was a *person *with two natures.

That is not contradictory.

I really urge you to get a copy of the book I recommended in the other thread-- Theology For Beginners by Frank Sheed. You can get it through inter-library loan or purchase it via Amazon.Com.

 

[tonsofquestions]

Human *nature *is finite. Divine *nature *is infinite.

Jesus was a *person *with two natures.

That is not contradictory.

I really urge you to get a copy of the book I recommended in the other thread-- Theology For Beginners by Frank Sheed. You can get it through inter-library loan or purchase it via Amazon.Com.

I will get a copy of the book. However, I do have to ask this. Since you don’t think the idea of something having two natures in contradictory, do you believe, then, that God could create a shape with the nature of a square and the nature of a triangle?

 

[davidv]

I will get a copy of the book. However, I do have to ask this. Since you don’t think the idea of something having two natures in contradictory, do you believe, then, that God could create a shape with the nature of a square and the nature of a triangle?

This is an apples to oranges comparison.
Human nature and Divine nature are not contradictory. Man was created in the image and likeness of God.

Square nature and triangular nature are contradictory by definition. God cannot do contradictory.

 

[1ke]

I will get a copy of the book. However, I do have to ask this. Since you don’t think the idea of something having two natures in contradictory, do you believe, then, that God could create a shape with the nature of a square and the nature of a triangle?

A person is not a thing.

And, triangleness or squareness is not a nature.

 

[tonsofquestions]

This is an apples to oranges comparison.
Human nature and Divine nature are not contradictory. Man was created in the image and likeness of God.

Square nature and triangular nature are contradictory by definition. God cannot do contradictory.

As far as I know, human and Divine natures are contradictory. We may be made in God’s image, but there are key differences. Human nature, for example, is finite and limited. Divine nature, on the other hand, is infinite and unlimited. Like you said, contradictory by definition. However, that still leaves us with the question of whether a thing or person can have two contradictory natures, which brings me to my next point:

A person is not a thing.

And, triangleness or squareness is not a nature.

You are correct, a person is not a thing. You seem to be saying, however, that things do not have natures. I would like to know, what is your definition of a “nature”? What category do “squareness” and “triangleness” fall under if not “natures”? And why can a person have two contradictory natures, but a thing can’t have two contradictory… whatever squareness and triangleness are?

 

[tonsofquestions]

By the way, Webster’s dictionary defined “nature” as “the inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing”. I don’t know what definition you use, however.

 

[davidv]

By the way, Webster’s dictionary defined “nature” as “the inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing”. I don’t know what definition you use, however.

Please check out the Catholic Encyclopedia article on nature. One should be wary of using secular definitions when discussing matters of theology.