Can God protect us from 'accidents' if our world contains chance?

[Richca]

“And I saw that truly nothing happens by accident or luck, but everything by God’s wise providence. If it seems to be accident or luck from our point of view, our blindness and lack of foreknowledge is the cause; for matters that have been in God’s foreseeing wisdom since before time began befall us suddenly, all unawares; and so in our blindness and ignorance we say that this is accident or luck, but to our Lord God it is not so.”
― Julian of Norwich, Revelations of Divine Love

"And in my providence I give to each of you in particular the man-
ner of life and death I choose. Hunger, thirst, loss of worldly position,
nakedness, cold, heat, insults, abuse, slander all these things I allow
people to say and do to you. Not that I am the source of the malice and
ill will of those who do these evil and harmful things; I only grant
them their existence and time. I did not give them existence to sin
against me and their neighbors, but so that they might serve me and
others with loving charity. But I permit these actions either to test the
virtue of patience in the soul who is their object, or to make the sinners
aware of what they are doing.

Sometimes I let the whole world be against the just, and in the end
they die a death that leaves worldly people stunned in wonder. It
seems to them unjust to see the just perishing now at sea, now in fire,
now mangled by beasts, now physically killed when their houses col-
lapse on top of them. How unreasonable these things seem to the eye
unenlightened by most holy faith! But not so to the faithful, for
through love they have found and experienced my providence in all
those great things. Thus they see and grasp that I do what I do provi-
dentially, only to bring about your salvation. Therefore they hold ev-
erything in reverence. They are not scandalized in themselves nor in
my works nor in their neighbors, but pass through everything with
true patience. My providence is never denied to anyone; it seasons ev-
erything.
Sometimes people think that the hail and storms and lightning I
rain upon their bodies are cruel. In their judgment I have no care for
their well-being. I have done these things to rescue them from eternal
death, but they believe the opposite.
Thus do worldly people try to distort my every work and inter-
pret it after their own base understanding."

__St Catherine of Siena (Doctor of the Church), The Dialogue- Divine Providence

 

[tonyrey]

"And in my providence I give to each of you in particular the manner of life and death I choose. Hunger, thirst, loss of worldly position,
nakedness, cold, heat, insults, abuse, slander all these things I allow
people to say and do to you. Not that I am the source of the malice and
ill will of those who do these evil and harmful things; I only grant
them their existence and time. I did not give them existence to sin
against me and their neighbors, but so that they might serve me and
others with loving charity. But I permit these actions either to test the
virtue of patience in the soul who is their object, or to make the sinners
aware of what they are doing.

Sometimes I let the whole world be against the just, and in the end
they die a death that leaves worldly people stunned in wonder. It
seems to them unjust to see the just perishing now at sea, now in fire,
now mangled by beasts, now physically killed when their houses col-
lapse on top of them. How unreasonable these things seem to the eye
unenlightened by most holy faith! But not so to the faithful, for
through love they have found and experienced my providence in all
those great things. Thus they see and grasp that I do what I do provi-
dentially, only to bring about your salvation. Therefore they hold ev-
erything in reverence. They are not scandalized in themselves nor in
my works nor in their neighbors, but pass through everything with
true patience. My providence is never denied to anyone; it seasons ev-
erything.
Sometimes people think that the hail and storms and lightning I
rain upon their bodies are cruel. In their judgment I have no care for
their well-being. I have done these things to rescue them from eternal
death, but they believe the opposite.
Thus do worldly people try to distort my every work and inter-
pret it after their own base understanding."

__St Catherine of Siena (Doctor of the Church), The Dialogue- Divine Providence

I was born on what used to be St Catherine’s feast day (30th April) and I admire all she did for the poor and in the cause of peace but she was not infallible. It is true that Providence has the last word and everything should be seen in the context of God’s love for us yet there is injustice in the world and not all of it is caused by man. When very young children suffer and die because of disease or disaster it is not to rescue them from eternal death. As the Catechism points out:

No one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures.

St Catherine is closer to the mark when she says:

“My providence is never denied to anyone; it seasons everything.”

It is only in Heaven that God’s Will is finally accomplished. In the meantime Pascal’s words are undoubtedly true:

Jesus will be in agony until the end of the world.

That is because He shares the suffering of all the innocent victims of evil, whether it is moral or natural.

 

[GodMadeMe]

I was born on what used to be St Catherine’s feast day (30th April) and I admire all she did for the poor and in the cause of peace but she was not infallible. It is true that Providence has the last word and everything should be seen in the context of God’s love for us yet there is injustice in the world and not all of it is caused by man. When very young children suffer and die because of disease or disaster it is not to rescue them from eternal death. As the Catechism points out:

St Catherine is closer to the mark when she says:

It is only in Heaven that God’s Will is finally accomplished. In the meantime Pascal’s words are undoubtedly true:

That is because He shares the suffering of all the innocent victims of evil, whether it is moral or natural.

Without suffering where is my wisdom. Without pain where is my experience of the good?

I know God because i have suffered, and i hunger for justice because i have peered into the abyss of my mortality.

 

[tonyrey]

Without suffering where is my wisdom. Without pain where is my experience of the good?

I know God because i have suffered, and i hunger for justice because i have peered into the abyss of my mortality.

Welcome to the forum!

 

[GodMadeMe]

Welcome to the forum!

Thanks!! I hope to be a positive addition to this forum.

 

[tonyrey]

Thanks!! I hope to be a positive addition to this forum.

You have made a promising start!

 

[cfauster]

That is because He shares the suffering of all the innocent victims of evil, whether it is moral or natural.

Important point, I think.

This weekend I listened to an excellent lecture available on-line entitled Blood, Fire, and Fang: Listening for God in the Violence of Creation.

I agree with the speaker that God’s creation of which we are a part and in which we live, though certainly not perfected like the New Creation will be, is/was nonetheless created good, and that despite the very real and significant tragedy of human sin, goodness still shines through.

Whatever our understanding, to be robust it must acknowledge that much suffering, loss, disease, death, *etc. * “is no respecter of persons.” I’m glad that the gospels record Jesus correcting the mistaken views of his contemporaries when they assumed that someone born blind or someone killed by a falling tower must have individually and specifically deserved that particular fate (or worse, that the cause was sin committed by the individual’s parents). Not necessarily!

 

[tonyrey]

Jesus will be in agony until the end of the world - Pascal

Thank you for your reply and reference to the lecture. God can and does protect us from accidents but not on every occasion because it would be impossible to be independent if a spate of miracles made it obvious He is protecting us every moment of our lives…:ehh:

 

[GodMadeMe]

I contend that there are no such thing as an accident, and that God is in complete control. Are our prayers for safety all for naught?

When its time to go its time to go. God does not save us from accidents as such. But no man or women dies if it is not God’s will. The prayer for protection encourages to recognize that it is impossible for death to befall us against God’s permission, and this is so that we can face the challenges of life head on without being derailed by fear of something that is not in our control.

Once you have reach the the resolution that your life is in God’s hands, what is death and what is fear that it should persuade you to give up your dignity?

 

[tonyrey]

When its time to go its time to go. God does not save us from  accidents as such. But no man or women dies if it is not God's will. The  prayer for protection encourages to recognize that it is impossible for  death to befall us against God's permission, and this is so that we can  face the challenges of life head on without being derailed by fear of  something that is not in our control.

Once you have reach the the resolution that your life is in God’s hands, what is death and what is fear that it should persuade you to give up your dignity? When its time to go its time to go. God does not save us from accidents as such. But no man or women dies if it is not God’s will. The prayer for protection encourages to recognize that it is impossible for death to befall us against God’s permission, and this is so that we can face the challenges of life head on without being derailed by fear of something that is not in our control.

Once you have reach the the resolution that your life is in God’s hands, what is death and what is fear that it should persuade you to give up your dignity?

A well-balanced view of divine Providence between the two extremes of Calvinism and atheism.

 

[Michael19682]

That is the outstanding difficulty of the Chance hypothesis. Why do we imagine some events are purposeful if there aren’t any? And if our thinking isn’t purposeful does it make sense to believe in anything?

Thank you for the feedback, the understanding. Perhaps we can forge a common consensus since I don’t at all disagree with what you said.

Does this mean we can’t discern the Spirit at all? What about a thought that is confirmed by a miracle, or a prayerful need answered (say, I need food because I am starving, and there appears a sumptuous mean) , or even a conviction upheld in the opinion of other (2 or more) Christians? Sometimes Chance involves the rare odd event, like a miracle, that is indisputably the work of God.

 

[Robert_Sock]

For those who say that God cannot prevent ALL ‘accidents,’ are we to say that God is finite?

 

[davidv]

For those who say that God cannot prevent ALL ‘accidents,’ are we to say that God is finite?

I have read through all of the responses. I cannot find one that states or implies that “God cannot…”. Our life experiences clearly show the God does not exercise His power to prevent all misfortunes. This provides no information on whether He could do so.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I have read through all of the responses. I cannot find one that states or implies that “God cannot…”. Our life experiences clearly show the God does not exercise His power to prevent all misfortunes. This provides no information on whether He could do so.

So nothing happens through chance alone, independently from God?

 

[tonyrey]

That is the outstanding difficulty of the Chance hypothesis. Why do we imagine some events are purposeful if there aren’t any? And if our thinking isn’t purposeful does it make sense to believe in anything?

I agree with you, Michael. We cannot always distinguish a chance event from a miracle but we do know that God doesn’t cause needless suffering. Everything He does is motivated by love even though it isn’t always evident. What we think are evils are often blessings in disguise or can be used to good effect. There is a very inspiring account of a priest who lost both his hands when opening a letter bomb but has inspired many people with his example of courage and forgiveness:

theforgivenessproject.com/stories/michael-lapsley-south-africa/

 

[tonyrey]

For those who say that God cannot prevent ALL ‘accidents,’ are we to say that God is finite?

God could prevent all misfortunes but chooses not to because we wouldn’t know what to expect next. A constant spate of miracles would defeat the purpose of creating a predictable world.

 

[davidv]

So nothing happens through chance alone, independently from God?

What do you mean by chance?

I don’t believe it is a real thing. It is a human description of events for which they have no knowledge of how they occur, of what causes them. Several models have been invented to attempt to estimate when then events happen, e.g., normal distribution, the student-t distribution.

 

[tonyrey]

What do you mean by chance?

I don’t believe it is a real thing. It is a human description of events for which they have no knowledge of how they occur, of what causes them. Several models have been invented to attempt to estimate when then events happen, e.g., normal distribution, the student-t distribution.

I agree. Some events have no explanation. If people are killed by an avalanche when they are climbing a mountain we can explain how they are killed but not why the two events occurred in the same place at the same time. They are permitted by God but He doesn’t plan or cause them to happen. In that sense they are irrational!

 

[Richca]

I have read through all of the responses. I cannot find one that states or implies that “God cannot…”. Our life experiences clearly show the God does not exercise His power to prevent all misfortunes. This provides no information on whether He could do so.

I think the idea that “God does not exercise His power to prevent all misfortunes” actually does not make any sense under consideration of God as the first cause of whatever happens in the universe. The CCC#308 states "The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator. God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: “For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” It doesn’t make any sense to say that God needs to prevent what He himself is causing as the first cause as if He doesn’t know what He is causing or what kind of effect that will result from His causality even through the instrumentality or causality of second causes or creatures. The effects produced by the causality of second causes or creatures are dependent on the first cause God so that such effects are principally the work of God as it is written “How varied are your works, LORD! In wisdom you have made them all” (Psalm 104: 24).

The CCC#308 quotes Philippians 2:13 which pertains to our free will which for the exercise and operation thereof God is at work in us as the first cause. Now if the power of free will and its operation requires the causality of God, how much more so must the operations of the whole of irrational nature require the causality of God! Not only to operate and act but being devoid of reason, to be directed to their ends by God as the arrow is directed to its target by the archer.
For “she [Wisdom] reaches mightily from one end of the earth to the other, and ordering all things well.” (Wisdom 8:1). Ordering is opposed to chance and so called misfortune. Everything that God causes is for some end and good in view established by His infinite wisdom and knowledge, goodness and love, for every agent acts for an end.

“The LORD has made everything for a purpose,
(“The Lord has made all things for himself” Latin vulgate)
even the wicked for the evil day.” (Proverbs 16:4).

“Good and evil, life and death,
poverty and riches—all are from the LORD.” (Sirach 11: 14).

The final cause of all things is God himself and his infinite goodness:

“When everything is subjected to him, then the Son himself will [also] be subjected to the one who subjected everything to him, so that God may be all in all” (1 Cor. 15: 28).

"I am the Alpha and the Omega,g the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” (Rev. 22: 13).

In the case of moral evil or sin, God is not the cause that the sinful act is defective or sinful, that it is defective is due to the creature or us. But that the sinful act is an act at all or that it has being or existence requires the causality of God who is the first cause of the being of the effects produced by second causes. Even our sinful acts God turns to good in one way or another such as we see in the passion and crucifixion of our Lord Jesus Christ which brought about the redemption of the human race and in the case of Joseph who was sold by his brothers to Ishmaelites who took Joseph to Egypt. When Joseph revealed himself to his brothers, he said to them:

"But now do not be distressed, and do not be angry with yourselves for having sold me here. It was really for the sake of saving lives that God sent me here ahead of you.

The famine has been in the land for two years now, and for five more years cultivation will yield no harvest.

God, therefore, sent me on ahead of you to ensure for you a remnant on earth and to save your lives in an extraordinary deliverance.

So it was not really you but God who had me come here; and he has made me a father to Pharaoh,* lord of all his household, and ruler over the whole land of Egypt." (Genesis 45: 5-8).

 

[tonyrey]

I think the idea that “God does not exercise His power to prevent all misfortunes” actually does not make any sense under consideration of God as the first cause of whatever happens in the universe. The CCC#308 states "The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator. God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: “For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” It doesn’t make any sense to say that God needs to prevent what He himself is causing as the first cause as if He doesn’t know what He is causing or what kind of effect that will result from His causality even through the instrumentality or causality of second causes or creatures. The effects produced by the causality of second causes or creatures are dependent on the first cause God so that such effects are principally the work of God as it is written “How varied are your works, LORD! In wisdom you have made them all” (Psalm 104: 24).

The fact that God works miracles to cure people demonstrates that being the First Cause doesn’t obviate the need to intervene. Second causes alone are insufficient to ensure that God’s Will is done. Otherwise Jesus wouldn’t have asked us to pray for our physical as well as spiritual needs…