Can God uncreate?

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JohnAlexander

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I believe that once God creates something he can not uncreate it.

I do not mean that something exists for a certain amount of time and then it doesn’t. That is obviously possible. But from God’s point it is different. Since he does not exist in time all time is present to Him. So what would it mean to uncreate something?

For things that only exist for a short period of time (galaxies, stars, etc.) this is not a problem. They are created (or formed out of earlier creation) then they change to something else. God does not have to uncreate these things, he can just bubble them off so no one else has access to them. They exist only during a specific moment in time. Since we exist in time and can only go forward from our point of view they don’t exist anymore. But from God’s point of view they exist just the same as they ever did.

But what about immortal beings that he created? What would be required to uncreate something that God created to be everlasting, not subject to temporal finite existence? The two creations that we know about are angels and people.

God knowing his creation is synonymous with creation. The cause of existence is God knowing. So if God knows his creation that was made for eternity how can he uncreate it? It would require God to forget. This isn’t possible. But if it were possible then God does not know something for a period of time and then forget it going forward. He forgets it for all time, backwards and forwards. If he has forgotten something for all time then it never existed to begin with since existence is God’s knowing.
  1. God Exists the same always. He cannot change.
  2. God creates by will, just by willing something to be.
  3. God’s will and his knowledge are the same thing.
  4. God cannot forget, this would require change.
  5. Once created, God cannot uncreate because that would require unknowing something, i.e. forgetting which would be a change.
  6. If uncreation does happen then it never existed, what never existed does not need to be uncreated.
Epilogue…
God cannot bubble off a creation that is immortal (hmmm. maybe he can? Maybe the bubble is… fill in the blank)
 
Fascinating to think about, indeed! We cannot know God’s point of view though, we can only speculate on it. I believe God can do everything we imagine He can, and far more than that. He encompasses all that we could be, and all that we cannot even conceive of. I am sure He has the power to uncreate, though God’s reasoning for doing so would probably be so far beyond anything we could imagine.
 
I think since God knows the outcome even before the beginning happens, He must have considered the prospect of creating or not creating on an individual basis before He even voiced Light into existence. Everything that He chose to not create, He simply did not create in the first place. There was no need for Him to hit a cosmic backspace key for anything.

Consider the unicorn. God did not create the unicorn, as we know by the lack of its existence (at least in this world through its history to the present time). Yet since He has always known everything we would think of, paint and make commercials of, He must have been aware of the concept of a unicorn. Apparently, that is one thing He chose to not create.
 
I don’t know that I’d frame it up as “can God do this?”; that kind of language tends to point itself toward powers and limitations. Rather, I might say that “it’s not compatible with God’s character to ‘uncreate’ a thing”.
 
SonCatcher said:
Consider the unicorn. God did not create the unicorn, as we know by the lack of its existence (at least in this world through its history to the present time). Yet since He has always known everything we would think of, paint and make commercials of, He must have been aware of the concept of a unicorn. Apparently, that is one thing He chose to not create.
Click to expand...
Are you saying that everything we create, as humans, God has already created at least in theory? Like, if I make up a Swannaoodle, the mysterious cross between a swan and a poodle, God has already thought of it?

I’m not disagreeing with you…it’s just a really really interesting concept.
 
yogicat said:
Are you saying that everything we create, as humans, God has already created at least in theory? Like, if I make up a Swannaoodle, the mysterious cross between a swan and a poodle, God has already thought of it?

I’m not disagreeing with you…it’s just a really really interesting concept.
Click to expand...
😃 It’s one of those logical conclusions from dwelling on God’s Eternal (outside time) and Omniscient (all-knowing) properties.
 
user "John Alexander":
I believe that once God creates something he can not uncreate it.

I do not mean that something exists for a certain amount of time and then it doesn’t. That is obviously possible. But from God’s point it is different. Since he does not exist in time all time is present to Him. So what would it mean to uncreate something?

For things that only exist for a short period of time (galaxies, stars, etc.) this is not a problem. They are created (or formed out of earlier creation) then they change to something else. God does not have to uncreate these things, he can just bubble them off so no one else has access to them. They exist only during a specific moment in time. Since we exist in time and can only go forward from our point of view they don’t exist anymore. But from God’s point of view they exist just the same as they ever did.

But what about immortal beings that he created? What would be required to uncreate something that God created to be everlasting, not subject to temporal finite existence? The two creations that we know about are angels and people.

God knowing his creation is synonymous with creation. The cause of existence is God knowing. So if God knows his creation that was made for eternity how can he uncreate it? It would require God to forget. This isn’t possible. But if it were possible then God does not know something for a period of time and then forget it going forward. He forgets it for all time, backwards and forwards. If he has forgotten something for all time then it never existed to begin with since existence is God’s knowing.
  1. God Exists the same always. He cannot change.
  2. God creates by will, just by willing something to be.
  3. God’s will and his knowledge are the same thing.
  4. God cannot forget, this would require change.
  5. Once created, God cannot uncreate because that would require unknowing something, i.e. forgetting which would be a change.
  6. If uncreation does happen then it never existed, what never existed does not need to be uncreated.
Epilogue…
God cannot bubble off a creation that is immortal (hmmm. maybe he can? Maybe the bubble is… fill in the blank)
Click to expand...
God can bring things to absolute nothingness as Aquinas wrote in the Summa Theologica.

newadvent.org/summa/1104.htm#article3

Since God made things by free will and not essence, he can unmake them too. And the artist can destroy his art if he wants to.

The same principle applies here since being itself is the artwork created by God.
 
JohnAlexander said:
I believe that once God creates something he can not uncreate it.

I do not mean that something exists for a certain amount of time and then it doesn’t. That is obviously possible. But from God’s point it is different. Since he does not exist in time all time is present to Him. So what would it mean to uncreate something?

For things that only exist for a short period of time (galaxies, stars, etc.) this is not a problem. They are created (or formed out of earlier creation) then they change to something else. God does not have to uncreate these things, he can just bubble them off so no one else has access to them. They exist only during a specific moment in time. Since we exist in time and can only go forward from our point of view they don’t exist anymore. But from God’s point of view they exist just the same as they ever did.

But what about immortal beings that he created? What would be required to uncreate something that God created to be everlasting, not subject to temporal finite existence? The two creations that we know about are angels and people.

God knowing his creation is synonymous with creation. The cause of existence is God knowing. So if God knows his creation that was made for eternity how can he uncreate it? It would require God to forget. This isn’t possible. But if it were possible then God does not know something for a period of time and then forget it going forward. He forgets it for all time, backwards and forwards. If he has forgotten something for all time then it never existed to begin with since existence is God’s knowing.
  1. God Exists the same always. He cannot change.
  2. God creates by will, just by willing something to be.
  3. God’s will and his knowledge are the same thing.
  4. God cannot forget, this would require change.
  5. Once created, God cannot uncreate because that would require unknowing something, i.e. forgetting which would be a change.
  6. If uncreation does happen then it never existed, what never existed does not need to be uncreated.
Epilogue…
God cannot bubble off a creation that is immortal (hmmm. maybe he can? Maybe the bubble is… fill in the blank)
Click to expand...
👍

First, far too many premises here to be useful to any one of them.

But, taking a look at some of your opening statements:

" Since he [God] does not exist in time, all time is present to him [God]. "
" So, what would it mean to uncreate something? "

Well, the question does not follow the premise and the premise is a state of knowledge unique to God, and being unique to God, not knowable by you or me, much less subject to questioning.

The subject is interesting, but the twine of thinking sinks.

🙂
 
fakename said:
God can bring things to absolute nothingness as Aquinas wrote in the Summa Theologica.

newadvent.org/summa/1104.htm#article3

Since God made things by free will and not essence, he can unmake them too. And the artist can destroy his art if he wants to.

The same principle applies here since being itself is the artwork created by God.
Click to expand...
In the following article, St. Thomas discusses whether God ever unmakes anything. That seems to me just as relevant to the discussion.
 
In order for God to create something and then ‘uncreate’ it(make it so that it never existed, i.e. never have created it) God would have to both create and not create the same thing at the same time. Isn’t this the typical example of a contradiction in terms? And so doesn’t it just fall into the same categories as the rest of these questions? ‘Can God create a rock so large he can’t lift it?’, ‘Can God end his own existence?’
 
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fakename:
God can bring things to absolute nothingness as Aquinas wrote in the Summa Theologica.

newadvent.org/summa/1104.htm#article3

Since God made things by free will and not essence, he can unmake them too. And the artist can destroy his art if he wants to.

The same principle applies here since being itself is the artwork created by God.
Click to expand...
St. Thomas Aquinas summarises it simply:

He can(first part, q.104.a3):

He is free not to continue their existence; and thus they would cease to exist; and this would be to annihilate them.

He Will not(first part, q.104.a4):

Moreover, the annihilation of things does not pertain to the manifestation of grace; since rather the power and goodness of God are manifested by the preservation of things in existence.

God Bless,

Christopher.
 
I believe that stating that God cannot uncreate is limiting His powers of Omnipotence. Therefore, it stands to reason that God has the power to uncreate something; unless, of course, you do not believe that God is truly Omnipotent.
 
Alberti_Devoveo said:
I believe that stating that God cannot uncreate is limiting His powers of Omnipotence. Therefore, it stands to reason that God has the power to uncreate something; unless, of course, you do not believe that God is truly Omnipotent.
Click to expand...
This depends on what you mean by ‘uncreate’. If you simply mean annhialate, bring back into nothingness, then of course, God can uncreate.But if you mean by uncreate “going back” and undoing what God already did, then it is not possible, not because God isn’t omnipotent, but because that would be contradictory, It is impossible for something to both be and not be at the same time in the same respect. It’s not a question of God’s omnipotence, but rather of something incomprehensible that in and of itself does not make sense and cannot exist, just like its impossible for a shape to exist with all the attributes of both a square and a circle. God cannot create such a thing because it is self-contradictory.
 
JohnAlexander said:
I believe that once God creates something he can not uncreate it.

I do not mean that something exists for a certain amount of time and then it doesn’t. That is obviously possible. But from God’s point it is different. Since he does not exist in time all time is present to Him. So what would it mean to uncreate something?

For things that only exist for a short period of time (galaxies, stars, etc.) this is not a problem. They are created (or formed out of earlier creation) then they change to something else. God does not have to uncreate these things, he can just bubble them off so no one else has access to them. They exist only during a specific moment in time. Since we exist in time and can only go forward from our point of view they don’t exist anymore. But from God’s point of view they exist just the same as they ever did.

But what about immortal beings that he created? What would be required to uncreate something that God created to be everlasting, not subject to temporal finite existence? The two creations that we know about are angels and people.

God knowing his creation is synonymous with creation. The cause of existence is God knowing. So if God knows his creation that was made for eternity how can he uncreate it? It would require God to forget. This isn’t possible. But if it were possible then God does not know something for a period of time and then forget it going forward. He forgets it for all time, backwards and forwards. If he has forgotten something for all time then it never existed to begin with since existence is God’s knowing.
  1. God Exists the same always. He cannot change.
  2. God creates by will, just by willing something to be.
  3. God’s will and his knowledge are the same thing.
  4. God cannot forget, this would require change.
  5. Once created, God cannot uncreate because that would require unknowing something, i.e. forgetting which would be a change.
  6. If uncreation does happen then it never existed, what never existed does not need to be uncreated.
Epilogue…
God cannot bubble off a creation that is immortal (hmmm. maybe he can? Maybe the bubble is… fill in the blank)
Click to expand...
God cannot destroy the existence of life, say a human soul. Once a human soul is created it can never be uncreated. In other words you can never terminate a soul into non-existance. The reason for this is because the extinguishing of existence (a soul) is a blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; and since God cannot blasphemy the Holy Ghost he just sends a bad soul into hell; rather than extinguishing its existence. There is Law that God must obey and this is called the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of Truth.
 
Alberti_Devoveo said:
I believe that stating that God cannot uncreate is limiting His powers of Omnipotence. Therefore, it stands to reason that God has the power to uncreate something; unless, of course, you do not believe that God is truly Omnipotent.
Click to expand...
God’s Omnipotence is limited by the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of Truth. God’s power must obey the Truth and uncreating something only advances a lie.
 
fakename said:
God can bring things to absolute nothingness as Aquinas wrote in the Summa Theologica.

newadvent.org/summa/1104.htm#article3

Since God made things by free will and not essence, he can unmake them too. And the artist can destroy his art if he wants to.

The same principle applies here since being itself is the artwork created by God.
Click to expand...
God cannot do whatever he wants he must obey Truth (the Holy Spirit). And since God is the Holy Spirit he always obeys the Truth. God is Truth. God cannot uncreate something because that is a lie. God cannot extinguish a soul because he would be blaspheming himself; and God cannot blasphemy the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, the Truth, is the Law which God must obey.
 
I wonder if we could think of redemption (i.e. the return to unity with God) as a kind of ‘uncreation’. In the ‘creation’ of this world (i.e. the Fall), being became separated from God. As we return to unity with God through the redemptive mystery of suffering and death, exemplified through Christ, the Fall is ‘uncreated’. So, eventually, when the whole Cosmos is redeemed into God- there will be a great, infinitely simple unity- ‘Creation’ (the Fall- the work of sin and self-will) will be undone.
 
tonyrey said:
JohnAlexander;8928647:
I think it is misleading to suggest God **cannot **
Click to expand...
do something. Some apparent possibilities are not really possible! The notion that God cannot destroy Himself, for example, is nonsensical because God is infinitely good and self-destruction is an evil.

We can only speculate about whether anything can be uncreated because we are not omniscient - which is implied by knowledge of the full implications of omnipotence. I believe nothing can be uncreated because destruction is a sign of inconsistency. What would be the point of it?

👍
Click to expand...
 
fakename said:
God can bring things to absolute nothingness as Aquinas wrote in the Summa Theologica.

newadvent.org/summa/1104.htm#article3

Since God made things by free will and not essence, he can unmake them too. And the artist can destroy his art if he wants to.

The same principle applies here since being itself is the artwork created by God.
Click to expand...
Fakename:

Read Article # 4 immediately following your #3 link. You will see that while God can annihilate finite things, He doesn’t.

God bless,
jd
 
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