Can God's Will ever go against "the script"?

[eponymic]

I’m sure that many people here know of, and follow, the “life script”. I don’t mean scripture, I mean the “Go to school, get a job, get married, have kids, white picket fence, etc. etc.” life script that most people follow. There are a few allowed deviations for people to remain single, for instance, but usually with obvious reasons, such as joining the clergy. However, after thoughtful prayer and reflection, can somebody determine that it was part of God’s plan for him to follow a lifestyle that deviates from the norm? For instance, could my God given talents be best used to serve and teach the children of others, despite being married and not having children of my own? (That is, not actively seeking children. I’m not saying that I would abort any immaculate conceptions that happen on my watch.)

I am not basing this on “I don’t want kids”, but rather that I believe that my talents and efforts would best be spent on helping others, rather than focusing on myself and my family and being spread too thin. “Each man has his own gift from God”, as Paul says, so would it be fair to God for me to sacrifice my gift, even in part, in order to fulfill the “script” that human society dictates?

 

[Karin]

Why would you get married in the first place if you have NO desire to have kids?
Stay single then and teach others if that is what you want.

 

[eponymic]

Why would you get married in the first place if you have NO desire to have kids?
Stay single then and teach others if that is what you want.

I’m married because I love my wife. Since we’ve been married, we’ve both done some soul searching, as well as had a few very uncomfortable experiences, and wondered if our call in life didn’t involve children of our own. This is a mututal decision as well. I’m not trying to pull a fast on on her, nor she on me. A marriage without children is not invalid just because a couple has no children.

 

[Jennifer_J]

In your wedding vows, you both vowed to accept the children God sends you. He may choose to not send you any children, but I think deliberatly avoiding children (through NFP), even for the noble purpose of educating others’ children, would be sinful, I don’t know if it would invalidate the marriage. Marriage has 2 purposes: the mutual love and companionship of the spouses and the procreation of children (even if one or both is infertile, INFERTILITY doesn’t make the marriage invalid, they are still to be open to the idea of children and often suffer greatly because of the infertility). I would suggest you find an orthadox spiritual director or priest to have this conversation with. I’m thinking the soul searching should have happened before the marriage.

Here’s what the church says about marriage and children
catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9911frs.asp
<<Marriages sometimes break up because people have an unclear idea of what marriage is, why it exists, and why it requires such commitment. Many marry based on feelings, with little thought to the nature of the institution. The procreative purpose of marriage, which by natural law is its primary end, is especially neglected. Some married couples plan from the outset never to have children, denying an essential property of marriage (openness to fertility) that is required for it to be validly contracted.

Catholic theology has always recognized that, according to natural law and the Bible, marriage is not only for the companionship and mutual love of the spouses but also for the procreation of children.

Thomas Aquinas stated, “It is clear that offspring is the most essential thing in marriage, secondly fidelity, and thirdly [the] sacrament; even as to man it is more essential to be in nature than to be in grace, although it is more excellent to be in grace” (Summa Theologiae IIIb:49:3).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says, “By its very nature the institution of marriage and married love is ordered to the procreation and education of the offspring, and it is in them that it finds its crowning glory” (CCC 1652). “Married couples should regard it as their proper mission to transmit human life and to educate their children” (CCC 2367).

The following passages show the Fathers clearly understood this natural law purpose of marriage, though they also recognized that other benefits (such as companionship, mutual love, physical pleasure, and the release of sexual tension) also follow from it…>>

Jennifer

 

[eponymic]

In your wedding vows, you both vowed to accept the children God sends you. He may choose to not send you any children, but I think deliberatly avoiding children (through NFP), even for the noble purpose of educating others’ children, would be sinful, I don’t know if it would invalidate the marriage.

I think there is a difference between the children God sends us and the children we seek ourselves. If God only wants you to have 3 children, that will not stop you from having a 4th, or 5th, or 6th, and nobody here would claim that having twice as many children as God wanted you to have, and therefore going against God’s will, is a sin. I do not know God’s will for me, although I hope I can discern a few clues now and then. (I also find it difficult to believe that God would give us free will, and then punish us if we were ever to use it, but that is a discussion for another time and subforum.)

Children represent a significant sacrifice, and I’m sure every parent on the board would agree. The question I pose is: do I have to sacrifice the specific talents that God gave me, and that are unique to me, in order to have children, which is not unique to me, or do I sacrifice my procreative future to worship God by fully utilizing the gifts he has given me?

Marriage has 2 purposes: the mutual love and companionship of the spouses and the procreation of children (even if one or both is infertile, INFERTILITY doesn’t make the marriage invalid, they are still to be open to the idea of children and often suffer greatly because of the infertility). I would suggest you find an orthadox spiritual director or priest to have this conversation with. I’m thinking the soul searching should have happened before the marriage.

I don’t think soul searching should ever stop. Things change. Situations change. Deciding a set in stone plan for the rest of our lives in the months preceding the ceremony is foolish. Marriage is a lifetime committment that requires a lifetime of contemplation and rethought. Dismiss it by saying “You should have thought of this before” if you want, but the truth is that we did before, and we will think of it again later. Even this latest development is not set in stone. I would also encourage you to avoid dismissing my question by simply stating that I changed my mind before, and I’ll change my mind again, and therefore this is a moot discussion.

I’m not looking for a final answer here. I’m only looking for opinions in a discussion. I do thank you for offering yours.

 

[DarkNight]

The simple reply to your question is: most definitely yes.
God’s Will does not follow our established “life script” (no matter how much we want Him to!)

I tried to live “the script” - I failed and my soul was in turmoil.
But now I live “**my **script” - and my soul is at peace.

My life now is more wonderful than I ever expected it to be.
I walk my path each day, step by step, with Jesus at my side.
Sometimes He whispers in my ear, sometimes He shouts, mostly He walks quietly beside me.

As Thomas Merton wrote (New Seeds of Contemplation) “Be the ‘poet’ God intended you to be!”

(An interesting podcast that I think may be relevant:
warwickcorner2006.org/NCRpodcasts/steindlrast-fox2.mp3)

Go with Love, Go with God!

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

… (I also find it difficult to believe that God would give us free will, and then punish us if we were ever to use it, but that is a discussion for another time and subforum.)

Sin use using our free will to go against God, and yes, we can be eternally punished…

Anyways, I haven’t had time to read the rest, just had to say that.

Quick answer to topic: Yes, His Will can be different from “the script” and I’m not clear about the “not actively seeking”. Avoiding children is “actively avoiding”, but not using anything to avoid is not “actively seeking”. Now with the latter, odds are you will have children unless you have some sort of fertility problem. Were you talking about avoiding children or simply not using anything to try to conceive?

 

[LSK]

There are people who are practicing celibacy in marriage. In the Church it is called a ‘Josephite Marriage’ in honor of the type of marriage life practiced by Our Lady and St. Joseph.

If you and your wife have determined, through prayer and proper spiritual guidance, that this may be the type of marriage for you then you will be doing God a great service by living this type of life. It would mean incredible sacrifice and prayer, love and devotion and how could a life lived in that manner be wrong?

I would take the time to talk with a trusted spiritual director about this course of action. You need to make sure you are acting out of love and not out of any other motive - not that I can think of one off the top of my head but you know what I mean, make sure this is truly the life for the two of you.

 

[mchale]

I think there is a difference between the children God sends us and the children we seek ourselves. If God only wants you to have 3 children, that will not stop you from having a 4th, or 5th, or 6th, and nobody here would claim that having twice as many children as God wanted you to have, and therefore going against God’s will, is a sin. I do not know God’s will for me, although I hope I can discern a few clues now and then. (I also find it difficult to believe that God would give us free will, and then punish us if we were ever to use it, but that is a discussion for another time and subforum.)

How do you know? If God only wants you to have 3 children, he might well indeed stop you from having more. There are many couples who are unable to conceive or carry children to term, even couples who already had children in the past. Now, it is permissable to seek some medical treatment in these cases, but it would be sinful to seek Artificial Insemination and other methods that essentially force pregnancy to happen.

God does give us free will, but the free will is to enable us to choose him and his will for us. If we choose otherwise God does not so much punish us as we punish ourselves.

Children represent a significant sacrifice, and I’m sure every parent on the board would agree. The question I pose is: do I have to sacrifice the specific talents that God gave me, and that are unique to me, in order to have children, which is not unique to me, or do I sacrifice my procreative future to worship God by fully utilizing the gifts he has given me?

Just curious, how are any children that God may grant you not unique to you? Each family is ideally a unique expression of the capacity for love that God gives us. Further, having a spouse also requires sacrifice, so logically speaking some of those talents that God gave you must be sacrificed to properly love and care for you spouse. Logically, if we follow your argument, any of us that perceived that we had talents should shun spouses and children for fear that it might lead to us not fully utilizing the talents that God gave us. Ultimately, some people might in fact be called to the single or the religious life so that they can more fully utilize their talents towards a specific area. Further if God sees fit, and believes that you should not have children, you will not have them. Ultimately we need to remember that spouses and family do not simply take from us. They give to us as well. Children give us wonderful opportunities to love and to be love that we might not experience otherwise in this life.

I don’t think soul searching should ever stop. Things change. Situations change. Deciding a set in stone plan for the rest of our lives in the months preceding the ceremony is foolish. Marriage is a lifetime committment that requires a lifetime of contemplation and rethought. Dismiss it by saying “You should have thought of this before” if you want, but the truth is that we did before, and we will think of it again later. Even this latest development is not set in stone. I would also encourage you to avoid dismissing my question by simply stating that I changed my mind before, and I’ll change my mind again, and therefore this is a moot discussion.

Soul searching never should stop, but keep in mind that the way this thread was opened suggested a certain finality in your decision not to have children. Being open to having children is an integral part of the Catholic conception of marriage.

–
Bill

 

[eponymic]

How do you know? If God only wants you to have 3 children, he might well indeed stop you from having more. There are many couples who are unable to conceive or carry children to term, even couples who already had children in the past. Now, it is permissable to seek some medical treatment in these cases, but it would be sinful to seek Artificial Insemination and other methods that essentially force pregnancy to happen.

God does give us free will, but the free will is to enable us to choose him and his will for us. If we choose otherwise God does not so much punish us as we punish ourselves.

Just curious, how are any children that God may grant you not unique to you? Each family is ideally a unique expression of the capacity for love that God gives us. Further, having a spouse also requires sacrifice, so logically speaking some of those talents that God gave you must be sacrificed to properly love and care for you spouse. Logically, if we follow your argument, any of us that perceived that we had talents should shun spouses and children for fear that it might lead to us not fully utilizing the talents that God gave us. Ultimately, some people might in fact be called to the single or the religious life so that they can more fully utilize their talents towards a specific area. Further if God sees fit, and believes that you should not have children, you will not have them. Ultimately we need to remember that spouses and family do not simply take from us. They give to us as well. Children give us wonderful opportunities to love and to be love that we might not experience otherwise in this life.

Soul searching never should stop, but keep in mind that the way this thread was opened suggested a certain finality in your decision not to have children. Being open to having children is an integral part of the Catholic conception of marriage.

–
Bill

Well, I would contend that God would not prevent us from having more children than He wants. Simply put, if God directly interferes in our life, then we cannot override those kids of actions (cause, He’s God and all, with the whole omnipotence thing going on), and we are merely just at the whims of God’s actions. That takes away our free will, as well as our responsibility, and we’re left to do whatever, because God will simply prevent things from going against His will.

I would also contend that God’s will is not specific. God’s will is a guidline on how we are to live our lives in society, but many of the more mundane, and some of the less mundane, details are left up to us. God gives us gifts and we are to utilize them, but how we utilize them is left up to us. I know that’s a bit abstract from my original point, but God will not meddle in our affairs. He lets us live our own lives, make our own mistakes and learn our own lessons. At the end of the day, He hopes we will see that His guidlines, and His will, is what produces the best results for us, our families and our society.

What I find disturbing about many religious people, of any relgion and denomination, is that they read the rules on how to live their lives, and follow blindly without any thought for the consequences. Since they state that they are simply “following God’s will”, any negative effects that fall upon themselves or those around them, including the children in their care that they may or may not be able to adequately take care of, are simply just want God wanted, and they are washed of all responsiblility. Again, this denies us our free will.

I apologize for the bit of a tangent there, but by forcing human tradition upon me and my spouse, am I disregarding God’s commandments? What can I do to better serve the world? There is no single answer to those questions, and the answer is vastly different for each of us. I am not saying that we all must shun children to follow our talents, or vice versa. I am only saying that it might be the answer for some of us, and each of us needs to evaluate that ourselves.

I also agree that my children would be unique, just like everbody else’s. My previous point was not that I wouldn’t have unique children, but that my ability to have children was not unique.

 

[ktp]

What I find disturbing about many religious people, of any relgion and denomination, is that they read the rules on how to live their lives, and follow blindly without any thought for the consequences.

How do you know this? Are you inside many religious peoples’ heads? Have you walked their lives’ paths with them, every moment, such that you can confirm that they have never thought for themselves about these ‘rules,’ and have given no thought to consequences?

It seems you are asking for people here to confirm that you are unique in being exempt from ‘the rules’ according to God’s Church on Earth. I don’t think anyone here is going to say that. If you value the Church’s teaching, then follow it to the best of your ability. If you don’t, then don’t. But why do you want anyone here to validate that decision?

I disagree, btw, that you will have more children than God wants. There are just far too many cases throughout history, the Bible, and current times, of God “closing the womb.”

 

[LSK]

You can chose, as I said before, to live a celibate life within marriage so as to fully devote yourself to God and God’s Will for you. If you and your wife both decide to do this out of love for God and His Church I cannot imagine a more beautiful gift you could give to Him. You should research the “Josephite Marriage”.

 

[gardenswithkids]

I don’t know God’s plans for you and your wife. The Author of Life writes unique “scripts” for each of our lives, and while many “plot lines” are similar, no two are alike. A friend told me the parents of St. Therese, (the Little Flower) considered for a time earlier in their marriage if they should devout themselves to God without children.

That said, I want to address a couple of things that seem, well, a bit odd and egotistical. They may get in the way of whatever calling God has for you.

I think there is a difference between the children God sends us and the children we seek ourselves. If God only wants you to have 3 children, that will not stop you from having a 4th, or 5th, or 6th, and nobody here would claim that having twice as many children as God wanted you to have…

First, the notion that a 4th, 5th or 6th child isn’t “wanted” by God, even if someone has them. Frankly, that thought is horribly offense to the dignity of children. Some place their fertility entirely into God’s hands, trusting He knows what’s best. It’s not irresponsible to trust in God. And what of many children “unplanned” by parents–do you think they are merely “accidents”? Even *if *people are irresponsible with their fertility, children are gifts from God.

Children represent a significant sacrifice, and I’m sure every parent on the board would agree. The question I pose is: do I have to sacrifice the specific talents that God gave me, and that are unique to me, in order to have children, which is not unique to me, or do I sacrifice my procreative future to worship God by fully utilizing the gifts he has given me?

Next to your point about sacrifice. The Christian life is about sacrifice. But the talents that are unique to parents are rarely “sacrificed” entirely. I don’t know what your specific talents are, but talents given up to God are never wasted.

As a homeschooling mother, I use my unique interests and talents daily as I raise my children. The use of my talents don’t typically feed my ego as they once did. Sure it might be nice to sing solos in a choir again, but instead I sing to my children each night and when we sit in the pew together. Every talents I have I use in raising my family. Same for my husband. You wrote that you feel called to educate–parents are the primary educators of their children. Educational opportunities abound in parenting! God gives us talents to use in our mission as parents.

by forcing human tradition upon me and my spouse, am I disregarding God’s commandments? What can I do to better serve the world? …

God ordained marriage and linked it to the procreation of children–that can hardly be called a mere “human tradition”. Yes, you and your wife need to discern God’s will for your lives. But do not so quickly dismiss importance of bearing and raising of Godly offspring as being one of the best ways to serve the world.

I also agree that my children would be unique, just like everybody else’s. My previous point was not that I wouldn’t have unique children, but that my ability to have children was not unique.

The phrase I highlighted in green made me laugh. We’re all unique, just like everyone else. Yet, you don’t really know if you have the ability to have children. Many struggle with infertility; they’re not unique either.

Again, I have no idea what God’s plan is for your life. But I hope before you go about devoting your life to the education of other people’s children, you correct your thinking that some children are unwanted by God and that parents simply wasted their God given talents because of them.

 

[leonie]

great posts here.

My only comment is that I believe that God is more interested in our personal holiness than utilizing our talents. Sometimes talents do lead to holiness, but sometimes they do not. It can be a great mortification to subjugate a natural talent in developing other not so natural talents that help us grow in holiness.

For example, I have a talent for teaching. I have some natural artistic talents. I have a very creative nature in developing ideas. I do not have a talent in organizing, housework, cooking, or even entertaining young children. But, as mother I subjugate my natural talents to grow in the duties of my life.

Why is that noble? Because, I am growing in virtue. I’m mortifying my natural desire for success in a profession. I’m making personal sacrifice for my family–just like Jesus did.

As a former classroom teacher, I’d also like to say that a parent has a great impact on a person than any teacher. yep.

God bless you for really taking time to struggle with this issue, esp. at CAF. In the secular world, you would get lots of affirming feedback. Here, we want to challenge you to a greater vision.

It is a rare person who is called to marriage who is not called to parenthood.

 

[Rob_in_Oregon]

I’m wondering how old you are. When I was in my twenties, I thought that having children would be a horrible impingement upon my personal freedom. In my thirties, I began to think that small chlidren are pretty cute, and fun to be around. In our forties, when my wife and I really wanted kids but found ourselves to be infertile, we adopted two wonderful babies from overseas. They are our greatest joy now that we are in our fifties.

A lot of people don’t want kids because they’re basically still kids themselves. I don’t mean that negatively; it’s just part of the natural maturation process. I was the same way.

Don’t get sterilized yet (or ever!), as you may feel very differently about it in a few years. The older I get, the more I treasure being around kids. They’re great! - Rob

 

[mchale]

Well, I would contend that God would not prevent us from having more children than He wants. Simply put, if God directly interferes in our life, then we cannot override those kids of actions (cause, He’s God and all, with the whole omnipotence thing going on), and we are merely just at the whims of God’s actions.

Free will means that we are able to attempt what is possible by our own choosing. What I meant here specifically is that if God did not want you to have more natural children, then I am pretty sure it would be obvious by an inability to conceive a child by natural means. That doesn’t mean that his will could not be overcome. Certainly modern medicine offers a variety of means of overcoming natural limits.

I would also contend that God’s will is not specific. God’s will is a guidline on how we are to live our lives in society, but many of the more mundane, and some of the less mundane, details are left up to us. God gives us gifts and we are to utilize them, but how we utilize them is left up to us. … … He lets us live our own lives, make our own mistakes and learn our own lessons. At the end of the day, He hopes we will see that His guidlines, and His will, is what produces the best results…

Actually I would contend that God’s will is specific. The whole concept of vocatio argues that there is a specific plan for each of us. We might have some latitude in how we respond to God’s plan, but I think it would be fair to say that for most decisions we make, there is a correct choice and an incorrect choice. In so far as we have knowledge of the correct choice, a failure to choose that correct choice is a type of sin. Ultimately, perfect knowledge of God’s plan for us, coupled with a sincere desire to live by that plan would leave very little latitude for us to make choices.

What I find disturbing about many religious people,…, is that they read the rules… (and follow) without any thought for the consequences. Since they… they are simply “following God’s will”, any negative effects that fall upon themselves or those around them, including the children in their care that they may or may not be able to adequately take care of, are simply just want God wanted, and they are washed of all responsiblility.

I suppose I am biased by the fact that while my immediate family is somewhat small (I have two brothers), my extended family is rather large. Both my parents grew up in Ireland in what by modern standards were large families (Dad is one of 9, Mom is one of 6). Both grew up in a poor country and yet, listening to stories they tell of their childhood, I do not hear stories of deprivation but of warmth and love. Our modern society basically measures care by the material goods we can give our children, not by the love we give them. Love is the one thing that is increased the more it is shared.

Further, I don’t think anyone here is claiming you need to a dozen kids to be a good Catholic. What we are saying that to have properly Catholic Marriage requires an openess to the possibility of children.

I apologize for the bit of a tangent there, but by forcing human tradition upon me and my spouse, am I disregarding God’s commandments? What can I do to better serve the world? There is no single answer to those questions, and the answer is vastly different for each of us. … … I am only saying that it might be the answer for some of us, and each of us needs to evaluate that ourselves.

Human traditions? That sounds like a protestant charge to me? The Chruch’s teaching on marriage and family is rooted in the Bible (God’s first commandment to man was to be fruitful and multiply). Being open to having children in your life is not really something that is optional to Catholics who are married.

Just a thought, lets say you can do X good by not having children. Now lets assume that the individual amount of good you can do in the world is reduced by the number of kids you have according to the following formula… X/n+1 where n is the number of kids you have. So if you have 2 kids, you do 1/3 as much good in the world than you would have done otherwise. But lets remember that each of your kids and each of their kids (and so on) has a chance to do good as well. When you add up all the goods that come from your descendents it is likely that more good will be done by having children than could ever be done without children. All of this ignores the fact that having children and raising them properly is intrinsically good in and of itself.

I also agree that my children would be unique, just like everbody else’s. My previous point was not that I wouldn’t have unique children, but that my ability to have children was not unique.

Your ability to have children may not be unique, but your ability to have the children you would have is.

–
Bill

 

[Jennifer_J]

Well, I would contend that God would not prevent us from having more children than He wants. Simply put, if God directly interferes in our life, then we cannot override those kids of actions (cause, He’s God and all, with the whole omnipotence thing going on), and we are merely just at the whims of God’s actions. That takes away our free will, as well as our responsibility, and we’re left to do whatever, because God will simply prevent things from going against His will.

I would also contend that God’s will is not specific. God’s will is a guidline on how we are to live our lives in society, but many of the more mundane, and some of the less mundane, details are left up to us. God gives us gifts and we are to utilize them, but how we utilize them is left up to us. I know that’s a bit abstract from my original point, but God will not meddle in our affairs. He lets us live our own lives, make our own mistakes and learn our own lessons. At the end of the day, He hopes we will see that His guidlines, and His will, is what produces the best results for us, our families and our society.

What I find disturbing about many religious people, of any relgion and denomination, is that they read the rules on how to live their lives, and follow blindly without any thought for the consequences. Since they state that they are simply “following God’s will”, any negative effects that fall upon themselves or those around them, including the children in their care that they may or may not be able to adequately take care of, are simply just want God wanted, and they are washed of all responsiblility. Again, this denies us our free will.

I apologize for the bit of a tangent there, but by forcing human tradition upon me and my spouse, am I disregarding God’s commandments? What can I do to better serve the world? There is no single answer to those questions, and the answer is vastly different for each of us. I am not saying that we all must shun children to follow our talents, or vice versa. I am only saying that it might be the answer for some of us, and each of us needs to evaluate that ourselves.

I also agree that my children would be unique, just like everbody else’s. My previous point was not that I wouldn’t have unique children, but that my ability to have children was not unique.

Fertility is a gift from God and it can be taken away.
God’s command is to be fruitful and multiply.

You can’t get away from the fact that the Church teaches (and therefore, it must be part of God’s plan for our lives) that Catholic couples are to be open to life (unless you both determine as LSK said to use celebacy throughout your marriage), which doesn’t mean to have all the children physically possible, but to DISCERN through each cycle whether having a child would be physically, emotionally or financially a significant burden. I think you are putting to many limits on God and over reading FREE WILL a bit. God causes miracles and allows tragedies to happen that he could stop. We don’t and can’t know why.

Have you read Humane Vitae or the Theology of the Body or any such documents on Marriage and Family?? I highly suggest this and also repeat the need for sound spiritual direction in this matter!

God bless you and your wife!

Jennifer