Can Homosexuality Be Proved Wrong From Natural Law

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Hi Djeter,
We are discussing the following question;

Assume (1) that gay sex is unnatural and (2) that we are going to deal with this matter without reference to God - why is gay sex wrong?

More briefly 'why does ‘unnatural’ => ‘wrong’?

The very first post by Protrait explains this well.

So you will see that your full and interesting post does not answer this because you spend some time showing that gay sex is unnatural [agreed] and in other places you bring in God, the Bishops etc which would have no influence on a non-believer.

So, agreed that gay sex frustrates the natural purpose of sex, why is it also wrong?

Look forward to hearing from you.

Laurie
 
Grace & Peace!

But Portrait, the question is not whether or not it is contrary to natural law or “wrong by natural law”–Mr. Gibson has repeatedly conceded this point (though *I *personally may not). The question is “what allows us to assume that something that is contrary to natural law is also something that is contrary to morality?” I’m sure Mr. Gibson will chime in and clarify if I am presenting his question incorrectly.

As an Ango-Catholic, 12-year-partnered monogamous gay man (whose partner is truly a blessing from God), I’m very much enjoying this conversation.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
Dear Mark,

Thankyou for your contribution above and I am delighted that you are enjoying the discussion.

Natural law reasoning is the basis for almost all standard moral intuitions. For example, it is the dignity and value that each man naturally possesses that makes the needless destruction of human life or infliction of physical and emotional pain immoral. This gives rise to a multitude of specific moral principles, such as the unacceptability of murder, physical and emotional abuse and so forth.

People have a basic ethical intuition that certain behaviours are wrong because they are unnatural. Thus we perveive intuitively that the natural sex partner of a human is another human, not an animal.

By parity of reasoning the same applies to the case of homosexual aberrant acts. The natural sex partner for a man is a woman and vice-versa. Thus men have the corresponding intuition concerning homosexuality that they do about beastality - that it is wrong because it is unnatural.

Of course their are some men that emphatically deny this and say that they do not intuitively percieve that homosexual deviant acts are unnatural or improper, as if that debunks all that I have said in the foregoing paragraphs. It does not. It must be remembered that man’s conscience is not always a true conscience; a man’s thinking can be skewed as regards moral issues and he can thus form a wrong judgement as to what is correct moral conduct and wrong moral conduct. We all know by experience that men have frequently done evil under the impression that they were right, so clearly an individual conscience can be an erroneous conscience, either through want of knowledge or rebellious self-will. However, if a man has not hardened his conscience by supressing its voice deep within or by perisistent sin, it will function as that innate faculty that distinguishes right from wrong.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait
 
Dear Luke,

Thanks for comment. You say:

You don’t think we communicate and make statements with our bodies and gestures? If your will doesn’t match what your bodily actions are communicating, then it’s a lie. The man performs the actions that are intrinsically directed towards procreation and which exist for the same reason, but he prevents that procreation from happening. He says, “I’m going to do everything that leads to and exists because it procreates the species, but I’m going to do it in a way that prevents the procreation from happening.”

You are correct to say that we can lie via our actions. I stand corrected. If I smile and wave at you then I am communicating the statement, ‘nice to see you’ which would be a lie if secretly I was annoyed that you had shown up. But a person having gay sex is not making any communication about reproduction which on consideration is a lie. What they are communicating is love towards their faithful gay partner which, we hope, is not a lie.

Of course he is doing an act which has evolved so as to reproduce the species and in a fashion that prevents this happening. But this is quite open – there is no lie involved – who is being deceived? What is happening, quite openly is that he is frustrating the purpose of the act so he is acting unnaturally. But this we have already agreed upon already and are looking for the reason why it is wrong.

You add:
What would you think of a person that ate food but prevented his body from digesting it? Or a person who plugged his nose every time he tried to breathe in? Or a person who smiles at you but covers up his face so you don’t see it? Or a boyfriend who kisses his girlfriend but puts his hand between their lips?

These are ingenious examples. First comment – I have never heard the Catholic Church say these things were sins that would send you to hell! Second comment- these people seem to be, in the main, silly not wicked. Why would I kiss my wife but at the same time interpose my hand if I wanted to kiss her? It would be stupid to frustrate my aim of kissing by another action – stupid and irrational but not bad. But here is the difference – I have no reason to frustrate the purpose of kissing my wife by interposing my hand but a gay person has a very good reason to frustrate the purpose of normal sex by having gay sex with his partner – namely he wants to express his love physically. So you see your examples do not quite fit the bill.

Thanks – you are making me think!

Best wishes

Laurie
 
Hi Portrait,

Thanks again. Now you say about gay sex:
“plainly wrong because that is clearly a perversion of the natural use of the reproductive organs”.
But to say that gay sex is ‘a perversion of the natural use of the reproductive organs’ is just another way of saying that it is unnatural!

Unnatural = frustratingthe natural purpose of a bodily part = contrary to Natural Law = perversion of the natural use of the reproductive organs = not what the organ has evolved for = whatever other words you care to use!!!

Do you see that it does not help to simply describe the action in words which ammount to the same thing?

So, whatever words you use, the question remains - so why is it wrong?

All the best,

Laurie
Dear Laurie,

On the basis of natural law morality is it permissible to pervert the natural use of the reproductive organs so one can engage in homosexual liasons? If yes, then on what authority do you say this and how do you know that your opinion is error-free and correct?

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait
 
Hi Portrait,

We have been here before;
People have a basic ethical intuition that certain behaviours are wrong because they are unnatural. Thus we perveive intuitively that the natural sex partner of a human is another human, not an animal.

1] In the usual sense of ‘natural’ we do not have this intuition when we reflect on the matter. As I have mentioned before being faithful is unnatural in one sense of this term. Living in a house is also unnatural in another sense of the term. So, coming to the Catholic sense of the term you need to show that ‘unnatural’ = ‘wrong’.
2] I have said this before but you have not yet taken it in. People have different intuitions. Mine is that faithful gay couples express something wonderful when they have physical relationships. Your intuition is the opposite. We need a way to decide whose intuition is correct.

However you play it we are back to the same old question - just because it is unnatural, why is it wrong? [Sorry]

All the best,

Laurie
 
For Portrait,
You ask;
On the basis of natural law morality is it permissible to pervert the natural use of the reproductive organs so one can engage in homosexual liasons?

Natural Law morality says that if some action frustrates the purpose of the organ used then it is wrong. In other words Natural Law morality STATES, in effect, ‘unnatural’ = ‘wrong’. Therefore the answer to your question is that according to natural law morality gay sex is wrong.

But we are exploring the basis of Natural Law morality when we ask, ‘why does unnatural’ = ‘wrong’ and so far - no answer!

Laurie
 
Grace & Peace!
Just as people would say that to deliberately induce vomiting to avoid weight gain is wrong (clearly it is not a right thing to do), for food is intended to go on a one way journey only; Likewise it is wrong to use our sexual organs for purposes for which they were not intended (clearly that is also not a right thing to do), for their teleological function is for procreation purposes.
Thank you for your welcome, Portrait. I do want to say, though, that I believe that there are some significant qualitative differences between bulimia and homosexual relationships. My 12-year relationship with my partner has not led to any deterioration of my health. My quality of life has improved. My church attendance and involvement have improved. Certain unhealthy spiritual tendencies I recognize that I have have been actively discouraged by my partner to my great (and I would not hesitate to say, eternal) benefit. My professional endeavors have blossomed under his encouragement and his support. My relationship with my partner has made me a better person, by God’s grace (I pray he can say the same!). And part of our relationship does indeed include giving ourselves physically to each other. Sharing ourselves has not destroyed our health, but has contributed to our intimacy, which has contributed to our flourishing together.

I don’t know that bulimia is capable of bearing these sorts of fruits, this kind of human flourishing. I’m not bulimic, though, so I wouldn’t be able to speak from first-hand knowledge. But I would imagine that the only real perceived good which comes from bulimia is the one you have already mentioned: cosmetic weight loss. I’m sure you didn’t mean to suggest, though, that cosmetic weight loss at the price of overall health is a value on par with actual human intimacy which has proved itself an avenue of grace. I’m sure you didn’t mean to denigrate my relationship by comparing it to a vomitting person who wants to lose weight. Which is why I wonder about the rationale behind the comparison to begin with, as, again, there seem to be some huge qualitative differences. If I were bulimic for the last 12 years, I would imagine I would be pretty happy a) to be alive; and b) have any enamel left on my teeth.

Perhaps if you can prove that my relationship and bulimia are indeed qualitatively indentical, then we could get some way towards eventually understanding why unnatural and immoral are believed to be equivalent when it comes to homosexuality.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
For Portrait,
You ask;
On the basis of natural law morality is it permissible to pervert the natural use of the reproductive organs so one can engage in homosexual liasons?

Natural Law morality says that if some action frustrates the purpose of the organ used then it is wrong. In other words Natural Law morality STATES, in effect, ‘unnatural’ = ‘wrong’. Therefore the answer to your question is that according to natural law morality gay sex is wrong.

But we are exploring the basis of Natural Law morality when we ask, ‘why does unnatural’ = ‘wrong’ and so far - no answer!

Laurie
Dear Laurie,

That is precisely what I have been continually seeking to convey to you during our debate. For the Catholic homosexual genital acts are contrary to the natural moral law and it is their unnaturalness that makes them both wrong and immoral. Moreover, the fact that God is the author of the natural moral law only reinforces our position, for if God is the author of the natural moral law, then surely any infraction of that law is necessarily going to be wrong.

Be that as it may, what do you think is the “basis” of the natural moral law and how binding is it upon men?; has it universal authority? and who is to decide between the quagmire of competing opinions?

Well Laurie I’m going to sign off now, so over and out.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait
 
Grace & Peace!

Thank you for your welcome, Portrait. I do want to say, though, that I believe that there are some significant qualitative differences between bulimia and homosexual relationships. My 12-year relationship with my partner has not led to any deterioration of my health. My quality of life has improved. My church attendance and involvement have improved. Certain unhealthy spiritual tendencies I recognize that I have have been actively discouraged by my partner to my great (and I would not hesitate to say, eternal) benefit. My professional endeavors have blossomed under his encouragement and his support. My relationship with my partner has made me a better person, by God’s grace (I pray he can say the same!). And part of our relationship does indeed include giving ourselves physically to each other. Sharing ourselves has not destroyed our health, but has contributed to our intimacy, which has contributed to our flourishing together.

I don’t know that bulimia is capable of bearing these sorts of fruits, this kind of human flourishing. I’m not bulimic, though, so I wouldn’t be able to speak from first-hand knowledge. But I would imagine that the only real perceived good which comes from bulimia is the one you have already mentioned: cosmetic weight loss. I’m sure you didn’t mean to suggest, though, that cosmetic weight loss at the price of overall health is a value on par with actual human intimacy which has proved itself an avenue of grace. I’m sure you didn’t mean to denigrate my relationship by comparing it to a vomitting person who wants to lose weight. Which is why I wonder about the rationale behind the comparison to begin with, as, again, there seem to be some huge qualitative differences. If I were bulimic for the last 12 years, I would imagine I would be pretty happy a) to be alive; and b) have any enamel left on my teeth.

Perhaps if you can prove that my relationship and bulimia are indeed qualitatively indentical, then we could get some way towards eventually understanding why unnatural and immoral are believed to be equivalent when it comes to homosexuality.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
Dear Mark,

Thankyou for your response. God willing, I will reply to it tomorrow so stand by for my posting dear friend. Thankyou for your patience.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait
 
Dear Luke,

You are correct to say that we can lie via our actions. I stand corrected. If I smile and wave at you then I am communicating the statement, ‘nice to see you’ which would be a lie if secretly I was annoyed that you had shown up. But a person having gay sex is not making any communication about reproduction which on consideration is a lie. What they are communicating is love towards their faithful gay partner which, we hope, is not a lie.

Of course he is doing an act which has evolved so as to reproduce the species and in a fashion that prevents this happening. But this is quite open – there is no lie involved – who is being deceived? What is happening, quite openly is that he is frustrating the purpose of the act so he is acting unnaturally. But this we have already agreed upon already and are looking for the reason why it is wrong.

These are ingenious examples. First comment – I have never heard the Catholic Church say these things were sins that would send you to hell! Second comment- these people seem to be, in the main, silly not wicked. Why would I kiss my wife but at the same time interpose my hand if I wanted to kiss her? It would be stupid to frustrate my aim of kissing by another action – stupid and irrational but not bad. But here is the difference – I have no reason to frustrate the purpose of kissing my wife by interposing my hand but a gay person has a very good reason to frustrate the purpose of normal sex by having gay sex with his partner – namely he wants to express his love physically. So you see your examples do not quite fit the bill.

Thanks – you are making me think!

Best wishes

Laurie
I need to ask you a question, then. How does gay sex communicate love in a way that is not achievable by other means, such as hugging or kissing on the cheek, or non-physical means such as charitable acts towards one’s friend?

The answer for sex which is ordered towards procreation is that it involves an actual exchange of self and a communion of persons. The man gives his bodily identity to the women through the sperm, and the woman receives that gift of the man into her bodily identity, the egg. The two of them combine to form a whole, new person, and the woman now gives the gift of her body to this new person through pregnancy and back to the husband through birth. This new person is the literal embodiment of the love between the husband and wife. This new person is now part of the communion of love between the father and mother.

YOU, me and EVERYONE on the planet who was conceived through free, natural means is the permanent embodiment of a moment of love between two people. All of us, including men and women with same-sex attractions, can trace our lives back to the moment when the woman received the gift of the man into herself. This expression of love is impossible by any other means.

When two people of the same sex or a contracepting couple have sex, they are participating in a mutual lie. It does not matter whether they agree on it. They are performing the bodily actions that communicate something which they do not wish to communicate, namely, a life-giving, self-giving, communion of persons. Ejaculating gametes into another person’s digestive tract or a condom leads to none of this, regardless of whether the two people are the same or opposite sex.

Gay sex and contraceptive sex are wrong because they act in direct opposition to that which they owe their existence to. Use of the genitals which is ordered towards procreation yet does not result in procreation is not wrong because it does not act against procreation, which is the reason for the existence of the genitals.
 
The continued obfuscation that while “unnatural” sodomy is not “wrong” emphasises the refusal of those so disordered to even acknowledge a Creator God who has endowed human nature with a conscience and the capacity to follow His natural moral laws for the right order of the sexes He has created. Hence the repetitive plea to leave God out of it. Yet pagan Cicero, and before him the ancient Egyptians acknowledge these constraints. (Post #37, 43). It is similar to the rejection of the proofs for the existence of God – and without God we can choose our own morality, and worship whatever idols we please.

It’s quite straightforward – the natural moral law is part of our God-given nature, understood through reason, and is a part of conscience. Reason associated with wanting to do good and avoid evil impels mankind to seek cause and effect in harmony with the natural moral law. A refusal to acknowledge God and God’s natural moral law results in a morass of self-serving pleasure. The act of sex between homosexuals is wrong because their act can never result in children. Also they have no right over the bodies of each other. In this last condition they are similar to adulterers and fornicators.

Since there is nothing ‘natural’ about homosexual activity it is a disorder. Even though there is no such thing as a “natural” inclination to have homosexual activity, if a person has such a disordered inclination, then pursuing it is wrong. A “natural” inclination to have and raise offspring is natural to the human person, but fornication, adultery, homosexual activity and contraception are wrong precisely because they are against reason as cause and effect in the natural moral law.

That homosexual activity is seen to be wrong is consistent with the fact that the homosexual condition is a disorder.
That many with this disorder desire not only to control their behaviour but to be rid of the condition itself reveals the depth of the law in mankind.

In Dubious Psychology Gerard J.M. van den Aardweg, a clinical psychologist with more than 30 years of practice in therapy with homosexuals, writes from the Netherlands. [From CATHOLIC WORLD REPORT, November 1997]:
“…both therapy and self therapy may completely eradicate a fully homosexual orientation and restore normal heterosexuality.”

Answer by Fr. John Echert on 05-14-2005 (EWTN):
“Regardless of the cause of such an orientation, any homosexual activity is gravely sinful, that is, it is a mortal sin, for not only is it sexual activity outside of a marriage between a man and a woman but it is also a perversion of nature. In the Old Testament God Himself imposed a death penalty upon active homosexuals, and destroyed two entire cities over this. So you have issues with God and nature, and not simply the Church. You also should have issues with the New Testament, for St. Paul and Jude both condemn sodomy.”
 
Hi Portrait,
For the Catholic homosexual genital acts are contrary to the natural moral law and it is their unnaturalness that makes them both wrong and immoral.
Yes I know that and we are discussing the basis of that view. To do that you have to explain why ‘unnatural’ => ‘wrong’ not just restate it in different words

Moreover, the fact that God is the author of the natural moral law only reinforces our position, for if God is the author of the natural moral law, then surely any infraction of that law is necessarily going to be wrong.
This may be so but remember you are trying to convince an unbeliever

Be that as it may, what do you think is the “basis” of the natural moral law and how binding is it upon men?; has it universal authority? and who is to decide between the quagmire of competing opinions
That is a different and very big question. Let us stick with the question in this thread.

Laurie

PS Your thead has provoked some interesting responses!
 
Dear Luke,

You write well but I am still to be persuaded.

When two people of the same sex or a contracepting couple have sex, they are participating in a mutual lie. It does not matter whether they agree on it. They are performing the bodily actions that communicate something which they do not wish to communicate, namely, a life-giving, self-giving, communion of persons. Ejaculating gametes into another person’s digestive tract or a condom leads to none of this, regardless of whether the two people are the same or opposite sex.

So your argument is that the sex act naturally is an act embodying love and the possibility [sometimes only theoretical] of reproduction. Now why must I agree with that? The act is a physical thing that we have evolved to do in order that the species continue. We have also evolved so that it is often an expression of love between the two partners. Now let us move to the morality. I am willing to accept that it ought to express love but I see no reason to concede that it always has to be open to the possibility of reproduction.

When two straight people try for a child no doubt they act in the way that you do elegantly describe in your post but I cannot see why this must always be the case. Usually it is the love expression that is the important part.

When I have sex with my wife, who is part childbearing age, I hope that I am communicating to her in a ‘self-giving’ way but I am not communicating in a ‘life-giving’ way because we cannot have children and do not want them. By ‘communicate is a life-giving way’ you can only mean that we perform an action which when we were younger would have produced children. I cannot see why that is so important so that for example if we had anal sex that would be wrong. Similarly for gay people.

You say that gay sex is a mutual lie but when we ask what you mean by that it amounts to the fact that they are doing something [ejaculation] which naturally is involved in conception something which is not possible for them. But is this not a more elegant way of saying that the action is unnatural and so something already assumed on this thread?

Good wishes

Laurie

PS This is off-thread but the best argument against this is a ‘reductio’ namely, Natural Law morality implies that gay sex is wrong, but the love of faithful gay sex is wonderful and life-enhancing [so not wrong] therefore Natural Law morality is mistaken on this issue.
 
Abu,
I have never said [though I think] that unnatural does not imply wrong butI have asked that you show it always does. It is the Catholic view that is being examined here not mine.

1] To claim it is wrong because it is against Natural Law does not work because the Natural Law just SAYS that you should not do something that is unnatural. In other words it just says that it is wrong. We are discussing WHY being unnatural makes it wrong and just to repeat that this is what Natural Law says really does not get us anywhere.

2] Similarly to baptise gay people as being ‘disordered’ rather than being ‘differently ordered’ is fair enough if that is what you wish to do - it is rather impolite but nevermind. However they are how they are and wish to do what they do. Faithful gay partnerships can be as wonderful and life-enhancing as any marriage - ‘disordered’ or not. So the same question arises why is a ‘disordered’ [as defined by you] relationship necessarily a wrong one.

Regards

Laurie
 
From the Summa:
We may speak of virtuous acts in two ways: first, under the aspect of virtuous; secondly, as such and such acts considered in their proper species. If then we speak of acts of virtue, considered as virtuous, thus all virtuous acts belong to the natural law.
newadvent.org/summa/2094.htm#article3

It is up to the individual to either accept the formulations in St. Thomas or to reject them, but the state of philosophy since Bacon and Descartes with the rejection of formal and final causality makes modern philosophy suspect. Kant’s “Illusion of Reason” drives home the point very well.

Few seem to know the Aristotelian first principles, his 4 causes, or that natural law is not the “law of Mother Nature”, as if man’s nature and that of the lower animals were the same and had the same finality. Science and opinion suffices for a philosophical statement as it can’t be “proven” otherwise. This view confuses science, today’s basis for philosophical thought, with that which relates to these first principles, and not what can be proven empirically.

Believe what you will, but the Church holds St. Thomas up as the standard of philosophy.
Moreover, the Angelic Doctor pushed his philosophic inquiry into the reasons and principles of things, which because they are most comprehensive and contain in their bosom, so to say, the seeds of almost infinite truths, were to be unfolded in good time by later masters and with a goodly yield. And as he also used this philosophic method in the refutation of error, he won this title to distinction for himself: that, single-handed, he victoriously combated the errors of former times, and supplied invincible arms to put those to rout which might in after-times spring up. Again, clearly distinguishing, as is fitting, reason from faith, while happily associating the one with the other, he both preserved the rights and had regard for the dignity of each; so much so, indeed, that reason. borne on the wings of Thomas to its human height, can scarcely rise higher, while faith could scarcely expect more or stronger aids from reason than those which she has already obtained through Thomas.
papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13cph.htm
 
As “moral” means concerned with principles of right and wrong or conforming to standards of behaviour and character based on those principles, it is highly disingenuous to plead that sodomy is not “wrong” when the natural moral law identifies those principles. The fact that the homosexual is disordered follows from the fact that if sodomy is practised it is wrong because it pursues an activity which is against the God-given natural moral law.

The spurious idea that “Faithful gay partnerships can be as wonderful and life-enhancing as any marriage” reveals the fantasy of immersion in a different culture that fails to understand the meaning of marital love.

“….it is like another world, where different values, politics and aspirations operate. There, ideas of normal life, with its ordinary pleasures and trials, are shunned in favour of the cult of sex. There where there is no chance of sex fulfilling is natural purpose of propagating the human race, it becomes an end in itself.” [Ben Manser, *My Life Is My Own, London Sunday Telegraph. Fr John A Harvey, The Truth About Homosexuality, Ignatius, 1996, p 154]. Such evidence of homo mania is characteristic of those actively pursuing the disorder.

“There is a whole way of thinking and feeling that occurs long before the inclination to genital acts with persons of the same sex arises in the heart…the disorder itself is rooted in unhealthy emotions.” [Quoted in Harvey, op. cit., p 154-5. Also Elizabeth Moberly’s *Homosexuality: A New Christian Ethic, and Gerald van Aardweg’s Homosexuality and Hope, for an analysis of such emotions].

“…homosexuality is a disturbance, comparable to although not identical with a physical illness. Strictly speaking there is no “cancerous person,” “paralytic person,” “pedophile person,” or “transsexual person.” There is, rather, a “person with cancer,” or a “person with a homosexual problem.” In contrast, it is correct to speak of the “heterosexual person,” because every human person is, as a man or a woman, designed for the sexual encounter with the opposite sex irrespective of the existence of a disturbance.”
Dubious Psychology by Gerard J.M. van den Aardweg, a clinical psychologist with more than 30 years of practice in therapy with homosexuals. Catholic World Report, November 1997].
BTW, there are not “many” people with homosexual tendencies. The professional estimate is about 2%.

Psychiatrist Dr Jeffrey Satinover in his monumental Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth, provides solid medical and scientific facts which place the “lifestyle” with behavioural problems like alcoholism and drug addiction. He explains that the activity is “rooted in choices the individual has made in the search for pleasure, and which become so powerfully addictive that they become habitual.” For 15 years Dr Satinover has helped over 50% to overcome their homosexual disorder. Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth, Dr Jeffrey Satinover, 1996, Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books.]
 
Sorry Abu but you are not debating the issue which is the subject of this thread.

That is, if something is unnatural why is it also wrong?

I have explained that to say that it is wrong because it goes against Natural Law is just to repeat that it is unnatural and wrong without explaining why but you don’t seem capable of understanding that.

Large quotes from eminent authors are no substitute for thinking for yourself.

Laurie

PS How many gay couples do you know for you, a young man you sound like, to pontificate about their quality? Read Volente on this thread. My daughter and her partner of 20+ years have a wonderful relationship which is no fantasy I can assure you. Reasoning ought always to be checked against the facts.
 
Dear Cherry5,

Jolly good to hear from you again and thankyou most kindly for your above question.

N.F.P. is not wrong and unnatural since the potential to create a new life is not being frustrated by any artificial means of birth-prevention. Moreover, even when some form of N.F.P. (e.g. the Billing’s Method) is used, the possibilty of the transmission of life remains always open, in contrast to sodomy and auto-eroticism where there is not the remotest possibility of creating a new life.

The Catholic Church permits and indeed encourages spouses to space births and plan how large or small they wish their families to be, “The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization and contraception)” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 2399).

Hope this is of some help to you.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait
Thanks for your welcome Portrait,

I do not want to hijack this thread. I do understand the church’s position on NFP but am at odds with the justification for the same.
As quoted by you “Therefore, to cause semen to be emitted for any other purpose than potential reproduction (e.g. as in auto-eroticism or sodomy) is plainly wrong because that is clearly a perversion of the natural use of the reproductive organs.”

When couples use NFP the “purpose” for emission of semen is typically NOT for reproduction. So to be true to the above couples should copulate ONLY when they want to procreate or on impulse without premeditation whether or not the act would result in conception.

I do not wish to discuss this further as this was not the purpose of this thread.

Warm Regards
 
Grace & Peace!

Thank you for your welcome, Portrait. I do want to say, though, that I believe that there are some significant qualitative differences between bulimia and homosexual relationships. My 12-year relationship with my partner has not led to any deterioration of my health. My quality of life has improved. My church attendance and involvement have improved. Certain unhealthy spiritual tendencies I recognize that I have have been actively discouraged by my partner to my great (and I would not hesitate to say, eternal) benefit. My professional endeavors have blossomed under his encouragement and his support. My relationship with my partner has made me a better person, by God’s grace (I pray he can say the same!). And part of our relationship does indeed include giving ourselves physically to each other. Sharing ourselves has not destroyed our health, but has contributed to our intimacy, which has contributed to our flourishing together.

I don’t know that bulimia is capable of bearing these sorts of fruits, this kind of human flourishing. I’m not bulimic, though, so I wouldn’t be able to speak from first-hand knowledge. But I would imagine that the only real perceived good which comes from bulimia is the one you have already mentioned: cosmetic weight loss. I’m sure you didn’t mean to suggest, though, that cosmetic weight loss at the price of overall health is a value on par with actual human intimacy which has proved itself an avenue of grace. I’m sure you didn’t mean to denigrate my relationship by comparing it to a vomitting person who wants to lose weight. Which is why I wonder about the rationale behind the comparison to begin with, as, again, there seem to be some huge qualitative differences. If I were bulimic for the last 12 years, I would imagine I would be pretty happy a) to be alive; and b) have any enamel left on my teeth.

Perhaps if you can prove that my relationship and bulimia are indeed qualitatively indentical, then we could get some way towards eventually understanding why unnatural and immoral are believed to be equivalent when it comes to homosexuality.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
Dear Mark,

Cordial greetings and sorry I could not reply to your post last evening but I was feeling quite jaded and just had to take to my bed. Anyway, thankyou for your patience dear friend.

That homosexual liasons such as yours can be loving is something that I would not deny (although a priori they cannot attain the same richness as the heterosexual mutuality God has ordained). However, the love-quality of such liasons is not sufficient to justify them. Indeed, I would have to add that they are incompatible with true love because they are incompatible with the moral law of God. Love is concerned for the highest welfare of the beloved and our highest human welfare is found in obedience to God’s law and purpose, not in revolt against them.

As regards my parallel between homosexual deviant acts and bulimia, I was not suggesting that they were on a par in terms of any qualitative element, merely pointing out that both acts are unnatural and wrong. As inducing vomiting to avoid weight gain is wrong because it is unnatural, likewise using one’s reproductive organs to engage in homosexual aberrant acts is also wrong because it is unnatural. Be that as it may, I apologise if you found the analogy distasteful; other examples could easily have been used, it is just that I thought the comparison with bulimia was quite compelling.

Another of those examples (and a more decorous one) that I could have used to make the same point is that of the eyeball. If one looked at the eyeball and did not know what its function was but could learn everything about its biology, then we could surely ascertain what that function was. It is nearly spherical and moves around in its socket. It has a clear opening that seems to enlarge and contract in response to the degree of exposure to light. It has a light sensitive inner lining connected to the nerves which go to the brain. This object clearly has something to do with receiving light and gathering light and converting it into signals. Perhaps it is for vision or something else.

The structure of the eye informs us what it is for. The eye is not the proper tool for catching a rugby ball; that is the hand whose structure is clearly designed for grasping things.

What is manifestly obvious here is that physical structure indicates purpose or “telos”.

Simply put the male body is sexually made for the female body and gamete are by their very design oriented towards the egg in the way that the eye is oriented towards light. Now homosexual liasons and any other aberrant sexual activity (e.g. auto-eroticism) other than vaginal intercourse cannot fulfill the purpose “written” into our physical form.

Therefore, just as it is wrong to forcibly sick up one’s food to avoid weight gain and to try and catch a rugger ball with one’s eye, so it is wrong to use one’s sexual organs contrary to nature in homosexual deviant acts. Now surely if all of these unnatural actions are deemed to be wrong, in the sense of applied to the wrong purpose or teleological function, then they manifestly cannot be right and normal - the fundamental issue is one of design and purpose.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait
 
This is an interesting thread, with very intellectual discussions and references. However I do have one suggestion in the hope of drawing a conclusion:

Perhaps the definition or attributes of what is considered “Wrong” in general needs to be agreed upon and then measure each opinion/point against this definition! based on a frame of reference (non-believer’s perspective)

For example does wrong mean cause harm/hurt in some way?

Regards
🤷
Cherry
 
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